Are Theists Afraid of Change?

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Andromeda's picture
Are Theists Afraid of Change?

One of the wonderful aspects of science is that it is constantly changing. As a species, our technology has evolved greatly over time. We have discovered many breakthroughs, and more are yet to come. In a nutshell, science is continuously advancing.

Do you know what hardly changes? Religion. Growing up in a Catholic school, I was taught the same thing every single year for 12 years. It makes one wonder if theists are actually afraid of change.

No breakthroughs have been discovered in religion. There is not a shred of evidence, or even reliability in the belief that prayers actually work. No new ideas have been proposed to further "improve" religion. It is the same every year, with only minor changes such as "the mass can be spoken in english" or "women can speak at the lectern".

In fact, the only changes made to the Catechism of the Catholic Church are on the topic of ethics. The Magisterium only changes doctrines once they are considered socially unacceptable (i.e., gay marriage, slavery, misogyny, murdering of non-believers, etc). It seems that to preserve the faith, the Church is stagnant unless criticized.

This brings us back to the original question: are theists afraid of change?

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dogalmighty's picture
Terrified.

Terrified.

Tin-Man's picture
Re: "Are theists afraid of

Re: "Are theists afraid of change?"

Well, considering most believe their god is "never-changing", it only makes sense that they would follow suit and be determined not to change themselves. The irony, however, is that they have constantly been "evolving" (or "devolving", maybe?) over the centuries by "adjusting" the dictates of their "never-changing" god to better fit in with an ever-changing society... *chuckle*... Yet, very few (if any) of them would ever acknowledge this fact. And in many cases, it is likely they never even think to question such things. Basically, whether they are afraid of change or just consciously resistant to it, it is somewhat amusing to me how they do not realize their respective religions have been in an almost continuous state of change over many centuries... *chuckle*...

rtmcdge's picture
Not wanting to change is not

Not wanting to change is not the same thing as being afraid of change. Not many people want to change. But it is for different reasons. At least some that are principal ones. And yes fear is one.
But God can be unchanging because He has no reason to change. Man does. God is perfect. Man is not. God makes no errors. Man all the time.
And the fact that religion changes is because of the fickleness of man. We get it wrong. We allow selfishness to interfere.
So there is a constant struggle going one. One leading to become more like God.The other to get as far from being like God as possible.

Sheldon's picture
Gerald "God can be

Gerald "God can be unchanging because He has no reason to change. "

You mean there is no change between the barbarically cruel genocidal old testament deity and Jesus? This is also a bare assertion, you need to start by accurately defining what you mean bu god, and demonstrate sufficient objective for it, and for the existence of a deity.

Gerald "God makes no errors."

Objective evidence for a deity, and then evidence it is inerrant please, rhetoric and anecdotal claims won't do. Neither will argument from assertion fallacies.

Gerald " the fact that religion changes is because of the fickleness of man."

That infers the bible is not the inerrant word of a deity, and I can only agree. Unfortunately this means that what christianity has for centuries claimed is the inerrant word of a perfect deity, and represents the evidence for their deity, is in point of fact just the cobbled together fallible testimony of, in your own words "fickle, selfish interfering, imperfect, errant men" . That rather kills the bible stone dead, unless you want to claim the bible is the inerrant unchanging word of a perfect infallible deity, are you?

David Killens's picture
@ Gerald

@ Gerald

"God makes no errors."

Then why fallen angels?

As depicted by religion, god made them, so they are celestial beings that are intermediate agents between man and god. Yet some, notably, Satan, fell.

dogalmighty's picture
ROTFLMAO...Ooops, sorry..

ROTFLMAO...Ooops, sorry...didn't mean to overtly laugh at you...it was a knee jerk reaction to what you said.

algebe's picture
@Gerald: God can be

@Gerald: God can be unchanging because He has no reason to change.

Yet god changes right at the beginning of the bible. He suddenly finds that he needs a universe and planet to tinker with. One moment he's presumably happy with chaos, and the next moment he's conjuring up plants and animals and people. What happened?

Science can't explain what happened before the Big Bang---yet.
Religion can't explain what happened to god before creation--ever.

Chuck80's picture
@Gerald "god makes no error"

@Gerald "god makes no error"

First question "Which god? " There's thousands

Second question "If god makes no errors why is there sin and hell?"

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Sheldon's picture
"@Gerald "god makes no error"

"@Gerald "god makes no error"

First question "Which god? " There's thousands

Second question "If god makes no errors why is there sin and hell?"

Good point, also a global genocide of all living things, using a global flood, to start again because things had not turned out as it wanted, doesn't sound like an error free plan to me.

Cognostic's picture
@New King James Version:

@New King James Version:

New King James Version: Hebrews 13:8
"Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever."

Matthew 5:17
“Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.

Matthew 5:18
"For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."

It's not that changes do not occur. Modern Christianity looks nothing at all like Christianity 100 years ago, 500 years ago, 1000 years ago or even back when the Bible supported the ownership of slaves. (Oh wait, it still does that but the Christians ignore it.) Religion is like a ball and chain around the ankle of progress. We have dragged it kicking and screaming into the light of the new age and still it is a hundred years behind us.

I would expect nothing less from people finding dogmatic advice on how to live from a 2000 year old book.

rtmcdge's picture
Much of what this country is

Much of what this country is based on is from those who held their beliefs in the Book of books, of paramount importance. Much of the discoveries of the new age were from men who placed their trust in the words of this Book.

No matter what you think. It has proven itself time and time again. Men and Women around the world have testified that their lives have been changed from the reading, and believing of the words from this Book. And no other piece of literature has had this said about it. From the end of slavery and women's suffrage, no other book was the impetus of bringing these injustices, maybe not to an end, but driven them into the darkness, where those afraid of the light and truth lurk. And all those who fail to recognize this book simply because of a lack of understanding of it are the ones with a fear of change.

Sheldon's picture
Gerald "

Gerald "
Much of what this country is based on is from those who held their beliefs in the Book of books, of paramount importance. Much of the discoveries of the new age were from men who placed their trust in the words of this Book."

That is an argument from authority fallacy, and is by definition irrational. It tells us nothing about the validity if their beliefs. Sir Isaac Newton created the foundation of modern physics, everything that has come since has been built on his work, he also believed in alchemy, how much credence do you think Newton's genius lends to his belief in alchemy exactly?

Gerald "No matter what you think. It has proven itself time and time again. "

Argument from assertion fallacy, evidence your claim please, and not with argument from authority fallacies like the one above.

Gerald "Men and Women around the world have testified that their lives have been changed from the reading, and believing of the words from this Book. And no other piece of literature has had this said about it."

This is simply untrue, I have ready many books that have changed my life. However even if your claim were true, it still doesn't evidence the existence of any deity.

Gerald "From the end of slavery and women's suffrage, no other book was the impetus of bringing these injustices, maybe not to an end, "

What utter nonsense, the bible condones and endorses slavery in the most explicit terms, even Jesus himself is quoted as saying "slaves obey your masters, even the cruel ones".

Edited...typo

Whitefire13's picture
@Gerald...”From the end of

@Gerald...”From the end of slavery and women's suffrage, no other book was the impetus of bringing these injustices, maybe not to an end, but driven them into the darkness, where those afraid of the light and truth lurk.”

I almost spit out my coffee. Oh yeah it was a “light”...

Conventional wisdom at the time ...

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/amp.theatlantic.com/amp/article/593710/

Do you think a patriarch society structure might have had an influence on it???

The bible has been a core tool for centuries in building, blessing and ‘splaining the need for this...

David Killens's picture
@ Gerald

@ Gerald

"Men and Women around the world have testified that their lives have been changed from the reading, and believing of the words from this Book. And no other piece of literature has had this said about it."

At the age of 16 I read Ayn Rand's "Atlas Shrugged", and it profoundly changed me.

So your statement is false.

Do you wish to retract that statement because I can list other publications that have heavily influenced me. I am also sure others can offer other examples.

Tin-Man's picture
@Gerald Re: "...lives have

@Gerald Re: "...lives have been changed from the reading, and believing of the [bible].... And no other piece of literature has had this said about it."

...*cough-cough-bullshit-cough-cough-cough*... To expand a bit on the point David K. so wisely made, I have read MANY more books that have made great impressions on me and shaped my thinking faaaar more so than your precious bible. To name but a small few (in no particular order)...

* "The Catcher in the Rye" (J.D. Salinger)

* "The Silence of the Lambs" and "Hannibal" (Thomas Harris)

* "Starship Troopers" and "Orphans of the Sky" (Robert A. Heinlein)

* "Lord of the Flies" (William Golding)

* "1984" and "Animal Farm" (George Orwell)

* "All Quiet on the Western Front" (Eric Maria Remarque)

* "2001 (and 2010): A Space Odyssey" (Arthur C. Clark)

* "Rogue Warrior" (Richard Marcinko)

* "The Subtle Art of Not Giving A Fuck" (Mark Manson)

* "Sun-Tzu: The Art of War"

* "The Far Side" comics (Gary Larson)

* Calvin and Hobbes" comics (Bill Watterson)

And the list goes on and on and on...

Each and every one of these stories and writings (along with countless others) have each made their own crucial impact on my life and have helped to shape me into the person I am today. The bible, on the other hand, served only to sow confusion and a sense of fear/dread throughout my psyche during all those years. As such, the "perfect teachings" of the bible often caused me to falter and not always do the right things my personal intuition was telling me to do. So, in THAT respect, I suppose it is only fair to say the bible DID have an impact on my life. Just not in a positive manner. Knowing the things I know now, I have zero qualms in making the statement the bible is truly a horribly fucked up book to use as a "moral guideline" for humanity.

Whitefire13's picture
Great reading list!!! Tin.

Great reading list!!! Tin.

When I was about 11-12yrs (stuck in Jdomland) I loved....
Judy Blume. “Hello, Are You There God? It’s Me, Margaret”

I had to sneak and read it though...

Tin-Man's picture
@Whitefire Re: Judy Blume

@Whitefire Re: Judy Blume

Oh, wow... When you mentioned her that brought Lewis Grizzard into my head. He wrote editorials for newspapers back in the days when people still read them. As a kid I would almost fight to go get the Sunday morning paper just so I could dig through it to get to his article first. He also wrote a few books along the way, and I actually have 3 or 4 of then in my collection. The guy is hilarious! And his writing style had a tremendous influence on my own style of writing whenever I am in my "sarcasm/comedy mode"... lol...

Sheldon's picture
Good list TM, but I can't

Good list TM, but I can't help noticing that Orwell's dystopian masterpiece 1984 is absent? Also Tale of Two Cities, and Hugo's masterpiece Les Miserables?

That aside your point is well made, in fact I have never read Harry Potter, as I'm not a fan, but I suspect as far as fiction goes they'd be far more edifying than the bible or the koran.

Whitefire13's picture
@sheldon. ... Tinny listed

@sheldon. ... Tinny listed 1984 beside Animal Farm
The Giver is another good dystopian work

Sheldon's picture
"@sheldon. ... Tinny listed

"@sheldon. ... Tinny listed 1984 beside Animal Farm
The Giver is another good dystopian work"

So he did, my apologies.

Tin-Man's picture
@Sheldon Re: Book list

@Sheldon Re: Book list

Yeah, those are just the ones I thought of off the top of my head. There are several other classics I read during high school literature, of course. I have read probably every Heinlein book he ever wrote, some of them multiple times. The two I listed were the ones that happened to come to mind first. ("The Rolling Stones" is one of his lighter and more humorous stories.) My Mom was a HUGE fan of Stephen King. As a result, I ended up reading a great many of his works over the years. I love his writing style. Tom Clancy, Michael Crichton, and Stephen Coonts are all favorites of mine in the realm of "realistic" action/techno suspense.

All in all, my reading preferences cover a wide range of interests.

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ Gerald

@ Gerald

"Men and Women around the world have testified that their lives have been changed from the reading, and believing of the words from this Book. And no other piece of literature has had this said about it."

errmmm...Mein Kampf, Origin if the species, Dianetics, Maslow's Early Development, Das Kapital, The Interpretation of Dreams, ....I could go on for more pages.

So what you said is complete and utter bollocks. (with thanks to Random for the use of the phrase.)

algebe's picture
@Gerald: Much of what this

@Gerald: Much of what this country is based on

Which country? You're addressing a global audience here.

ilovechloe's picture
Many white theists always

Many white theists always wish they could go back to the "good ole days". where homosexuality was still illegal, nobody had ever heard of transgender persons, blacks still knew their place, & women knew that their place was in the kitchen!

Chuck80's picture
Right they seem to forget

Right they seem to forget that them "traditional family" portraits they get all Misty eyed over was just a marketing ploy to get men and women to buy things even certain 1950 shows they obsess over as the "golden days" despite none of them were alive or very young to even know how it was

Like them mgtow incels who keep crying how social media turned women into whores or men into whores as if that's some "hidden knowledge" they only know when there's been songs from the 1940s to now of artists who spoke on male and female whores

Lion IRC's picture
Science is good how it's

Science is good how it's always changing - always tentative.
Always correcting its own mistakes.

Not like that boring old bible. Always true. Never in need of correction.

algebe's picture
@Lion IRC: Never in need of

@Lion IRC: Never in need of coerrection.

The Bible? It starts with a falsehood and ends with an impossible wish. It's got some of the best characters in fiction though---Moses, Abraham, Goliath, Samson, Solomon, Jesus, god.

rtmcdge's picture
Didn't see any evidence

Didn't see any evidence provided. Not any? Or are you simply scared to be proven wrong.?

algebe's picture
Gerald:

Gerald:

The evidence is in the book. It starts and ends with things that couldn't have and never will happen. In the beginning it has plants growing before the Sun was in the sky. It has the waters all gathered in one place, which is nothing like this planet. It doesn't even attempt to explain where the wizard came from. It ends by saying that Jesus will come back soon. If 2000+ years of unfulfilled prophecies isn't enough to convince you that ain't going to happen, I don't know what will.

As for the characters, Moses was a murderer who was such a great leader he took 40 years to lead his people on what should have been a 2-week hike. Samson was a serial killer. Solomon suggested cutting a baby in half. David sent a soldier into harm's way so he could screw the man's wife. And god supposedly inspired prophets and lawgivers to create crazy and contradictory laws with cruel and unusual punishments for those who broke them.

Look at the 10 Commandments. A whole line is devoted to the six-day working week, but there's nothing about slavery. You have to honor your mother and father but not your children. How mad is that? And what the hell is god's problem with coveting? If my neighbor has a better house than mine, what's wrong with working hard and making my house better?

After endless stories of god's "chosen people" slaughtering innocent communities and raping their little girls, Jesus suddenly says love your neighbors. Treat other people as you want to be treated. Huh?

Is that enough evidence for you? Now prove me wrong.

Sheldon's picture
Lion IRC "Science is good how

Lion IRC "Science is good how it's always changing - always tentative.
Always correcting its own mistakes.

Not like that boring old bible. Untrue, but unwilling to be corrected."

Fixed it for you, Do you think we will find such obvious trolling a compelling reason to start believing your belief in a deity you can demonstrate no objective evidence for is a valid argument?

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