Are we born good or evil???

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Amber Horner's picture
Are we born good or evil???

During my undergrad studies at a protestant college, the question in my my class titled " the life and teachings of jesus" asked the question: Are we born good or evil, I was the only one who said we are born evil.

Later i found george carlin, rest his soul:

:When it comes to bullshit, big-time, major league bullshit, you have to stand in awe of the all-time champion of false promises and exaggerated claims, religion. No contest. No contest. Religion. Religion easily has the greatest bullshit story ever told. Think about it. Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man living in the sky who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time!

But He loves you. He loves you, and He needs money! He always needs money! He's all-powerful, all-perfect, all-knowing, and all-wise, somehow just can't handle money! Religion takes in billions of dollars, they pay no taxes, and they always need a little more. Now, you talk about a good bullshit story. Holy Shit!

But I want you to know something, this is sincere, I want you to know, when it comes to believing in God, I really tried. I really, really tried. I tried to believe that there is a God, who created each of us in His own image and likeness, loves us very much, and keeps a close eye on things. I really tried to believe that, but I gotta tell you, the longer you live, the more you look around, the more you realize, something is fucked up.

Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed. Results like these do not belong on the résumé of a Supreme Being. This is the kind of shit you'd expect from an office temp with a bad attitude. And just between you and me, in any decently-run universe, this guy would've been out on his all-powerful ass a long time ago. And by the way, I say "this guy", because I firmly believe, looking at these results, that if there is a God, it has to be a man.

No woman could or would ever fuck things up like this. So, if there is a God, I think most reasonable people might agree that he's at least incompetent, and maybe, just maybe, doesn't give a shit. Doesn't give a shit, which I admire in a person, and which would explain a lot of these bad results.

So rather than be just another mindless religious robot, mindlessly and aimlessly and blindly believing that all of this is in the hands of some spooky incompetent father figure who doesn't give a shit, I decided to look around for something else to worship. Something I could really count on.

And immediately, I thought of the sun. Happened like that. Overnight I became a sun-worshipper. Well, not overnight, you can't see the sun at night. But first thing the next morning, I became a sun-worshipper. Several reasons. First of all, I can see the sun, okay? Unlike some other gods I could mention, I can actually see the sun. I'm big on that. If I can see something, I don't know, it kind of helps the credibility along, you know? So everyday I can see the sun, as it gives me everything I need; heat, light, food, flowers in the park, reflections on the lake, an occasional skin cancer, but hey. At least there are no crucifixions, and we're not setting people on fire simply because they don't agree with us.

Sun worship is fairly simple. There's no mystery, no miracles, no pageantry, no one asks for money, there are no songs to learn, and we don't have a special building where we all gather once a week to compare clothing. And the best thing about the sun, it never tells me I'm unworthy. Doesn't tell me I'm a bad person who needs to be saved. Hasn't said an unkind word. Treats me fine. So, I worship the sun. But, I don't pray to the sun. Know why? I wouldn't presume on our friendship. It's not polite.

I've often thought people treat God rather rudely, don't you? Asking trillions and trillions of prayers every day. Asking and pleading and begging for favors. Do this, gimme that, I need a new car, I want a better job. And most of this praying takes place on Sunday His day off. It's not nice. And it's no way to treat a friend.

But people do pray, and they pray for a lot of different things, you know, your sister needs an operation on her crotch, your brother was arrested for defecating in a mall. But most of all, you'd really like to fuck that hot little redhead down at the convenience store. You know, the one with the eyepatch and the clubfoot? Can you pray for that? I think you'd have to. And I say, fine. Pray for anything you want. Pray for anything, but what about the Divine Plan?

Remember that? The Divine Plan. Long time ago, God made a Divine Plan. Gave it a lot of thought, decided it was a good plan, put it into practice. And for billions and billions of years, the Divine Plan has been doing just fine. Now, you come along, and pray for something. Well suppose the thing you want isn't in God's Divine Plan? What do you want Him to do? Change His plan? Just for you? Doesn't it seem a little arrogant? It's a Divine Plan. What's the use of being God if every run-down shmuck with a two-dollar prayerbook can come along and fuck up Your Plan?

And here's something else, another problem you might have: Suppose your prayers aren't answered. What do you say? "Well, it's God's will." "Thy Will Be Done." Fine, but if it's God's will, and He's going to do what He wants to anyway, why the fuck bother praying in the first place? Seems like a big waste of time to me! Couldn't you just skip the praying part and go right to His Will? It's all very confusing.

So to get around a lot of this, I decided to worship the sun. But, as I said, I don't pray to the sun. You know who I pray to? Joe Pesci. Two reasons: First of all, I think he's a good actor, okay? To me, that counts. Second, he looks like a guy who can get things done. Joe Pesci doesn't fuck around. In fact, Joe Pesci came through on a couple of things that God was having trouble with.

For years I asked God to do something about my noisy neighbor with the barking dog, Joe Pesci straightened that cocksucker out with one visit. It's amazing what you can accomplish with a simple baseball bat.

So I've been praying to Joe for about a year now. And I noticed something. I noticed that all the prayers I used to offer to God, and all the prayers I now offer to Joe Pesci, are being answered at about the same 50% rate. Half the time I get what I want, half the time I don't. Same as God, 50-50. Same as the four-leaf clover and the horseshoe, the wishing well and the rabbit's foot, same as the Mojo Man, same as the Voodoo Lady who tells you your fortune by squeezing the goat's testicles, it's all the same: 50-50. So just pick your superstition, sit back, make a wish, and enjoy yourself.

And for those of you who look to The Bible for moral lessons and literary qualities, I might suggest a couple of other stories for you. You might want to look at the Three Little Pigs, that's a good one. Has a nice happy ending, I'm sure you'll like that. Then there's Little Red Riding Hood, although it does have that X-rated part where the Big Bad Wolf actually eats the grandmother. Which I didn't care for, by the way. And finally, I've always drawn a great deal of moral comfort from Humpty Dumpty. The part I like the best? "All the king's horses and all the king's men couldn't put Humpty Dumpty back together again." That's because there is no Humpty Dumpty, and there is no God. None, not one, no God, never was.

In fact, I'm gonna put it this way. If there is a God, may he strike this audience dead! See? Nothing happened. Nothing happened? Everybody's okay? All right, tell you what, I'll raise the stakes a little bit. If there is a God, may he strike me dead. See? Nothing happened, oh, wait, I've got a little cramp in my leg. And my balls hurt. Plus, I'm blind. I'm blind, oh, now I'm okay again, must have been Joe Pesci, huh? God Bless Joe Pesci. Thank you all very much. Joe Bless You!

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LogicFTW's picture
George Carlin and that comedy

George Carlin and that comedy skit is awesome, I always wonder how theist contend with it. I think they mostly just uncomfortably laugh.

I do not believe in good and evil as a universal rule, everyone has their own take on it. But little kids, wow, they can be monsters sometimes or just evil seeming at times if you strip away the fact they are just babies. The first thing a baby learns is how to manipulate a parent or two, by experimenting with different cries until they learn a cry that gets the results they want. It is an important function of survival back in our caveman days.

Then comes the day when the baby understands their surrounding and they are curious. Have long hair? Expect it to get pulled even when you tell them no. Have a small dog or a cat? Expect it to be terrorized by the curious baby. Want some sleep at 3am? Fuggedaboutit! Leave them alone with a dirty diaper you just took off for 2 seconds within reach?... yeah you really don't want to know.

Amber Horner's picture
Hello logic, we have debated

Hello logic, we have debated against SOM before. Yes, indeed, you can search all child rearing books and find that our human condition is much derived from survival, no deity needed. infants just a few days old root for the milk, if it is not given they fail to thrive, as toddlers, it is interesting to watch them fight for toys, naturally. it isnt until a parent convenes that they " learn the right way to behave" conditionally, we are not good and require to be taught fairness, morality, understanding, giving, sharing. Nevertheless, as children, we seek only to master our needs maslovs hierarchy of needs... i.e.,food, shelter, love etc is necessary for survival. Thus,my contention is and still stands, we are born evil ;)

algebe's picture
@Drivenone: "as toddlers, it

@Drivenone: "as toddlers, it is interesting to watch them fight for toys"

At the same time, if teacher asks a class of 5-year-olds for someone to help with a task, they compete desperately to be picked for the chore. So in addition to competition for resources (food, toys, etc.), I think we're also hard-wired to be useful in our groups. Some call this altruism or morality, but really it's just another survival instinct. We don't need god to make us help our neighbor. We've survived as a species (so far) because we instinctively want to do that.

MCDennis's picture
Of course we are not born

Of course we are not born good or evil

bigbill's picture
Well to consider if one is

Well to consider if one is born good or evil, It is an interesting question here.I believe that when I was born back in 1955 I was not actually planned, My mother just got pregnant also after me she terminated 2 others she was carrying, I feel she did the right thing though, there was no room for 6 people 3 sisters who were older and 2 parents and myself, Nor did she have the finances or the patience to care for 2 more children. My mother had me at the age of 39 years old she most have become pregnant with the other 2 way after 40 years old. So to answer your question honestly I don`t know. Since I was a Christian at one time I was taught that it was necessary for me to be baptized in infancy like my 3 older sisters were, That we had a stain of the original sinb.ut now that I have left Christianity I question as an agnostic if there is such a thing, I can honestly say is that I don`t know one way or the other if we are born good or evil.

mykcob4's picture
@Drivenone 1974

@Drivenone 1974
Was there a point to this or is this just a bad stand up routine?
You said that after you decided that god wasn't the answer you looked for something else to worship. My question is why worship anything or anyone at all? The sun?
There is no reason, no logic, no profit, no purpose or accomplishment in worshipping anything!

Amber Horner's picture


The point here was to give a little history of my past christian views and my later realization that it was all bullshit. Therefore, adding in a little George Carlin was to lighten the mood, plus I think his routine on the matter to be quite funny. He was poking fun at the entire subject, it wasnt for me about worshiping anything, just a joke in general.

Hovitose's picture
Ok, new here. Not sure where

Ok, new here. Not sure where I can post an intro, so suffice to say at this stage, hope this'll be a good place for me to come and participate. Can't see an introductory thread but maybe not looking hard enough. Anyway Hi.

xenoview's picture

Welcome to AR! You can start your own intro post if you want too.

xenoview's picture
I don't think we are born

I don't think we are born good or evil. Good and evil is something you have to learn. Is a three year old evil when it slaps you in the face or eye?

Amber Horner's picture


Good point, I meant the thread to be more thought provoking than literal, but I am not sure we can say for certain we are born in any way good or bad. However, in my study of human behavior and serial killers, there is a gene that links serial killers to being the way they are i.e., harmful to others without empathetic disposition. So, i still maintain that a large part of environment and biology determines our personalities and behavior.

mykcob4's picture
No one is born good or "evil"

No one is born good or "evil" (bad). There is no evil. People grow up conditioned by their environment. Education, opportunity, social pressure, parents & family or lack thereof, all develop a person's actions. DNA can determine things like physical attributes and intelligence capacity but has nothing to do with being good or bad. Take Trump. He is very very bad indeed which has to do with him being raised a spoiled self-entitled little shit. He has never been held accountable for his actions, thus he is a very bad person.

bigbill's picture
how can you belittle a person

how can you belittle a person`s name and reputation? Do you know donald trump? To use profanity here is not the best option Only the soverign God knows trumps heart, How can you in your right mind say that he is a bad person? you know mycob4 that he had to have a love for people and the country to run for and eventually become president, He could of sat back and stay in his Golf countryclub but no he tried to help the country by making it great again. How could you fault him on this? Before you pass judgement on a man please get to know him a bit, Not at how the press portrays him.

xenoview's picture
science follower

science follower
Do you have evidence testable evidence for a god? Can you prove a god is real?

LogicFTW's picture
A tRump supporter! Now say

A tRump supporter! Now say you believe global warming is a hoax, (along with you already admitting you are a christian apologist,) and you hit the trifecta of ignorance!

How come you do not hate tRump? He and the republican party despite having majority in both house and senate cannot even stop full funding of Planned Parenthood. I am guessing you consider abortion murder and assume PP is the devil. tRump and the republican party utterly failed to stop abortion on any level so far. They are giving up now and accepting status quo! Infact because of tRump/Pence election, donations to PP zoomed to 10x their usual levels, PP is better funded than they ever been!

I am guessing Breitbart and infowars are the only media you consider to be at all truthful?

I actually think tRump went from a bad person to an insane person that still has his bad tendencies. A sit down with any well trained and educated psychiatrist could find a whole host of major psychological issues with him much of it is quite obvious in even simple from a distance elementary psychoanalysis. It is hard to imagine a more obviously evil person then tRump. Maybe the Koch brothers.

tRump has no love for the people, he has a love for feeding his narcissistic needs, amassing more wealth and being the boss. Every action he has done since being sworn in reflects this. The republican party is using him as a distraction/shield to get what they want done in the background, (making the best of tRump winning the primaries, which the established republicans did not intend.) Although the republicans are finding tRump may be doing more harm to them then good at this point.

-His wall idea is completely ridiculous on so many different levels. (Other than talking about it to help him get elected by people that cannot think critically.)
-His want to "save the coal industry" was ridiculous, (of course his proposed budget plan screws the coal miners over in a big way.) He just wants to help out a few of his donor/buddy ceo's and owners get richer.
-Reversing environmental protections to our rivers and streams screws everyone over except the rich owners and CEO's of the companies that use our water as a sewer to give themselves more easy money.
-He has no idea, despite being president, how health insurance, ACA, and health care works. Yes, in its current ACA form it has large issues, especially in the states that decided not to implement ACA in its intended form, but his idea of a better system shows he has no idea how it all works. (And it is not complex! It is basic math and simple concepts, everyone else wants to make it complex!)

I really wish he just stayed in golf country clubs. Supposedly he does too, he has admitted to realizing being president is a lot harder than what he did before.

Amber Horner's picture


aMen pun intended.

mykcob4's picture
@science follower

@science follower
1) Saying that there is a "sovereign god" PROVES that you don't follow science and should change your moniker.
2) I can use Trump's own action and words to see that he is a bad person and a self-entitled asshole.
"Mexicans are all murderers and rapist."
"You can do anything and get away with it if you're famous."
Right out of Trump's mouth.
Fact check anything that he has said publicly. He lies incessantly. He is pathological.
He ran for president, not because he loves this country but for his own ego and his need to prove to his father that he is worth something, even though his dad is dead.
He isn't making this country great again. The nation is already great and he had nothing to do with it. What he is doing is selling us out to Russia and that is apparent. There is a real Constitutional crisis because of Trump the likes is greater and larger than when the criminal Nixon held the office. That is a fact!
The press reports the NEWS that Trump makes every day. They don't "portray" him.
As far as him ever leaving the golf course, it is a fact that he spends more time at his golf courses now than he ever did before.
Trump's reputation is that he cheats people, doesn't pay them, and claims bankruptcy so often that he should have a suite at the courthouse!
None of the products that he has made is made in the USA nor are any of Ivanka's goods.
He's a racist, a sexist, and egomaniac, an Islamaphobe, a conspiracy liar, a pathological liar. He colluded with the Russians (Treason by violating the Logan Act) and has obstructed justice.
You are delusional and either stupid, ignorant, uninformed, misinformed, brainwashed, or all of the above.

bigbill's picture
Just look at the life burial

Just look at the life burial and resurrection of jesus Christ, He was no ordinary being, he was God in the flesh. he healed people taught people cast out demons from frightened people walked on water etc etc Yes this is my evidence to you. God was right there among humanity there is your evidence. Why do people go searching for something while all along it is right in front of us. So simple, obey the teachings of Jesus Christ and you will never need to go searching for fulfillment again. Jesus rising from the dead is a fact not a myth the fact is there was no body in the tomb, Jesus simply rose from death on the third day and was seen by over 500 people plus the disciples.That is the whole wonderful thing about faith, because it really is not only about believing in something but we have the testable proofs that Jesus was and did what he said he would do, so it`s just not blind faith that we profess but rather a real living walk with faith in god.

mykcob4's picture
You have any proof that jesus

You have any proof that jesus was resurrected? No, because it didn't happen. Only bibles written after the 600s actually claim a real resurrection. There isn't any REAL evidence that there was a jesus in the first place.
Have you any REAL evidence of a god? No, because there isn't any and never has been any.
Your idea that 500 people saw jesus rise is a flat out lie.
The Codex Sinaiticus (the oldest bible in print) says that three, that's 3 cleaning women went to the tomb and found it empty. There was no explanation of why or how it became empty only that it was. Not 500, no men, no officials, just THREE cleaning women.
So don't hand me this politically edited altered bible crap from the 1500s. It is pure propaganda which apparently YOU are prone to believe. It's fucking bullshit.

bigbill's picture
You Are completely

You Are completely misinformed that only bibles written after the seventh century claim that Jesus rose from the dead. the earliest manuscripts that we have state clearly that Jesus lived died and resurrected from the dead.It is not during the reformation that this occurred, So by you stating that the 1500`s reformation was poppy cot is wrong And please don`t address me with your profanity, Stay with the arguments.As for futher proof Jesus lives in my heart and thoughts that's what happened to the early church, they passed on the happenings of the way in the first century and it has resulted to over 2.3 billion Christians today.

Nyarlathotep's picture
As for futher proof Jesus

science follower - As for futher proof Jesus lives in my heart and thoughts ...and it has resulted to over 2.3 billion Christians today.

Argumentum ad populum.

mykcob4's picture
@science follower (NOT!)

@science follower (NOT!)
Fuck YOU! I will use whatever language I care to asshole! You don't edit ME!
Prove it. Produce these so-called manuscripts. There aren't any. YOU are a bald faced liar just like your god Trump.
Christianity didn't actually get going until Emporer Constantine became a christian in the 4th century. The bibles that actually claim a resurrection didn't show up until centuries later.
You don't know history. You ignore reality. You don't follow science, and you are a bald faced liar.

bigbill's picture
There are manuscripts going

There are manuscripts going back to the 2nd century ce, The church fathers like Polycarp clement etc quote the new testament manuscripts.In fact 99.9 percent is all gathered together by the church fathers quoting them.There are over 20,000 manuscripts over 6,000 in greek and another 15,000 in latin.The church fathers prove that Jesus existed in the first century. How come your leaving this out? I fyou want to use profanity then I`m not interested in dialogue with you, But I`ll be glad to answer your comments if you show some civility. Just take a deep breath and relax don`t get excited control yourself instead of acting like a brat.

mykcob4's picture
@science follower

@science follower
Don't you dare condescend to me asshole.
Produce one of these so-called manuscripts. The fact is the idea of a bible didn't even happen until the 400ade. There were no church fathers in the first century. In the first century, there were loose bands of people calling themselves christian.
1st of all in the first-century christians could not READ or write. There was no need for a bible.
2ndly, the best scholars believe that the "new testament" was written by 4 different authors completely independent of each other and most likely not of the same time. The bible is completely from ORAL history and folklore, thus the mix of stories that came from other cultures. So the best guess is the first "bible' actually was commissioned by Emporer Constantine. And as a result, his scribes produced a book that was a conglomerate of many stories (all fiction) that fit the political narrative that the Emporer wanted and needed.
No one has ever "proven" that jesus existed. There is NO evidence whatsoever.
I will use profanity if I care to. If you don't like it, then fuck off. You don't have to reply to my post.
There was no bible before Emporer Constantine and there have been many politically edit version hence. There was never and is not one "bible". And they are all just political propaganda and nothing more.

bigbill's picture
the church fathers of the 2nd

the church fathers of the 2nd century like clement, polycary, ireanaus etc all passed on what they heard from the apostles. there is the p52 manuscript dating from the first century, Even though there wasn`t full bibles then there was fragmentary copies well from the second century onward.The new testament was compiled by 9 different authors, Matthew Mark luke John Paul James Peter jude and Hebrews.So they were written all by Christians there was educated Christians take luke he was known as a physician well educated paul also was a Pharisee who changed his way of thinking on the road to Damascus he achieved all kinds of letters to his credit.There is also p46 rowlan copy yes it is also a fragment but written the first century.Maybe since the manuscripts came from scrolls there wasn`t a bible like we know of today the thing is that what took place orally in the first century was passed down by the churches started in Jerusalem and asia minor turkey and Europe.It spread so by the time of Constantine people alreasy had the codex which was started by Christians that was a type of had writings on both sides, and this dates back to the second century.also by the time of the council of nicea Christians and there followers knew what the new testament was.

Nyarlathotep's picture
science follower - the church

science follower - the church fathers of the 2nd century like clement, polycary, ireanaus etc all passed on what they heard from the apostles

The apostles were not alive in the 2nd century; but nice try.

bigbill's picture
Polycarp a church father was

Polycarp a church father was a disciple of John there was some church fathers in the 100s that knew the apostles so that would make it the early 2nd century wouldn`t it? the early church starters in Jerusalem and asia minor passed these things down they had creeds and hymns and sacraments by then.look at phillipians and colossians they both have creeds in the beginning of there epistles.The biblical mark gospel he learned from Peter the chief apostle and first bishop of the way. Then there is luke learned from paul and some of the other disciples.So there was a continuous passing along of information of what the church is and what it eventually would become.

Nyarlathotep's picture
science follower - Then there

science follower - Then there is luke learned from paul

According to your mythology; Luke and Paul never met Jesus.

bigbill's picture
according to tradition paul

according to tradition paul had an experience on the road to Damascus and luke knew paul so it wasn`t hard to gather information about jesus because paul received it from the lords brother james, It was one continuous streak of passing information down. I feel this is not a myth here but a explanation that is rational at how the bible was was one stepping stone above another here.starting from Jesus death and resurrection in ad 30 to the church fathers in the the 200s we had a new testament in codex form.

Nyarlathotep's picture
science follower - I feel

science follower - I feel this is not a myth

It is a myth. Not one of the authors of the bible ever met Jesus; Matthew was not written by Matthew, Mark was not written by Mark, Luke was not written by Luke, and you guessed it: John was not written by John.

The story of Jesus is about as reliable as the stories about King Arthur or Robinhood; possibly based on a real person, but mostly just fantasy. The story of Jesus is a fairy tale for adults. You yourself have already agreed to this:

science follower - jesus death according to the prophet Isaiah was to usher in the messianic age but it did not, it never happened. the whole thing is a con man can be a god, all [Jesus'] miracles were fake...nor did [Jesus] rise again the whole story is one big hoax.

Why don't you tell us why you said that?


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