Are we born good or evil???

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Nyarlathotep's picture
There isn't a single

There isn't a single contemporary source for the story of Jesus; not one word. It is a fairy tale for adults.

algebe's picture
@science follower: "Could you

@science follower: "Could you in your prime be able to survive a being crucified."

I was never stupid enough to try it, but there are religious whackos in the Philippines who have themselves crucified every year at Easter.

bigbill's picture
yes that is a reality in the

yes that is a reality in the Philippines they do that around easter time, but they haven`t suffered from the beating at the pillar that jesus underwent, nor did they lose all that sleep that jesus suffered during the night time to early morning trials No Algebe Jesus was dead that's why water and blood gushed out of the spear wound in his side near his heart If the early church said that he died that is good enough for me.Jesus said that he would die so it remains.

mykcob4's picture
@science follower

@science follower
NOT one shred of evidence that that ever happened, nada, zero, zilch.
The Romans kept records and there is NO fucking record of the events you profess.
BTW moron, for "water to stream out of a wound a person would have to be stabbed in the stomach and the person stabbed would have to have just drunk pints of water to get the effect.
According to you, jesus was dehydrated.
You are fucking nuts!

algebe's picture
@Science follower: "that's

@Science follower: "that's why water and blood gushed out of the spear wound in his side near his heart"

I'm no doctor, but as I understand it, severe blood loss causes the heart to beat abnormally fast, which in turn causes watery fluid to gather in the pleural sacs around the lungs. The soldier is depicted spearing Jesus in the right side, which would have penetrated a lung rather than the heart, releasing the fluid from the pleural sac. At that point Jesus would have been in shock and unconscious, but not necessarily dead.

As for the flogging, that was a standard part of the crucifixion package. Everyone got flogged, and most still lingered for 2-3 days. The biblical Jesus character wasn't a soft city-slicker. He was tough, used to living rough and walking long distances. He would have had plenty of stamina.

It's also surprising that the Romans allowed Jesus to be taken down so soon. They commonly left corpses hanging on crosses to rot as visual and olfactory warnings to others. So is it possible that a Jesus sympathizer among the Roman soldiers not only allowed his friends to take him down, but also arranged for him to be treated by a Roman army medic? They were very good at treating battlefield trauma.

Of course, all of this assumes that Jesus actually existed and was crucified.

bigbill's picture
Why are you adding all of

Why are you adding all of this to the jesus story Algebe the reason why jesus was taken down was because it was the Passover Sabbath coming up that`s why also your possibility is just that, I t is a lot of nonsense. There is no such inclusion in the new testament about a roman soldier being treated by a medic. Why can`t you accept the story as it is why all these excuses? The fact that Christians have been saying all along that jesus died and rose on the third day period.No need to add more to the written text here.you sound today really foolish..

algebe's picture
@Science Follower: "you sound

@Science Follower: "you sound today really foolish"

I'm foolish? You're the one who claims to believe that god made a married virgin pregnant so she'd have a child who'd also be god and would grow up, manufacture some bread, fish, and wine, kill a tree, ride a donkey, and be tortured to death, and then come back to life, all to fix the defective world that god created in the first place. There's not one shred of real evidence outside of your magic book to support this fairy story.

I'm just trying to offer a plausible theory to explain some of the events in this fantasy.

Tell me this. Why Israel? Why wasn't Jesus born in China or South America? Doesn't the whole idea of a chosen people make you a little suspicious?

bigbill's picture
Also they didn`t break Jesus

Also they didn`t break Jesus Christ legs, they did to the others but not jesus, The reason being that he was already dead when they came to him. And Roman soldiers new when somebody was dead.

mykcob4's picture
Bullshit pseudo-science

Bullshit pseudo-science follower. No proof!

algebe's picture
Bullshit is real. You can

Mykcob:
Bullshit is real. You can stand in it, warm your hands on it, or spread it on your roses. The Jesus story is not worth bullshit.

algebe's picture
@Science Follower: "they didn

@Science Follower: "they didn`t break Jesus Christ legs, they did to the others but not jesus"

That story's from the Book of John, isn't it. Although it's traditionally been attributed to John son of Zebedee, its actually an anonymous document written perhaps 60-70 years after the supposed date of the crucifixion. Not exactly an eyewitness acount, is it?

How can you tell whether a man suspended six feet above you is dead? Confirming death is actually quite difficult, even when you can touch the body to check for a pulse, etc. That's why people sometimes wake up in the morgue. Perhaps the cross had a built in EEG or ECG?

bigbill's picture
algebe the roman soldiers

algebe the roman soldiers guards were experts in death and how to inflict pain, believe me Jesus was dead.THe book of john was written about ad 90 to 100, I happen to believe whole heartedly that jesus died on the cross was taken down do to the Sabbath coming, And was buried and rose on the third day.That is the heart of the Christian story. The thing is if I`m right to believing this then some day I have eternal life, While I`m afraid for unbelievers such as yourself you can`t count on everlasting life you only have the here and now. Not to a comforting thing to experience.

algebe's picture
@Science follower: "you only

@Science follower: "you only have the here and now. Not to a comforting thing to experience."

You should try it. The here and now is actually quite exciting when you have your eyes fully open. Wishful thinking about sky-daddy and an eternal after-life won't make it so. Are you blind to all the harm that religions have done in this world? People aren't born evil, but religions sure are. We all need to get these evil monkeys off our backs and live fully in the real world.

And by the way, unless someone's been decapitated or burned to ashes, you need medical training and equipment to diagnose death with any certainty. If a person is suspended unconscious six feet off the ground, as Jesus allegedly was, there's no way for uneducated common soldier to be sure. There are no reliable eye-witness accounts, and the whole fable is full of contradictions. As I said before, if Jesus existed, and if he was crucified, he was resuscitated, not resurrected.

bigbill's picture
I was in the world with the

I was in the world with the here and now and it doesn`t offer much, But to have the promise of eternal life that will say something. You see Algebe both of my parents are deceased I`m almost 62 years of age, And what I have gotten out of life I would do almost anything to have them back living again. So with the Christian message of everlasting life I will one day see them once again and not be so sad anymore. You don`t have that benefit being an atheist you only have the here and now which is fleeting away So the Christian message has way more to the atheistic one..

algebe's picture
@Science follower: "I was in

@Science follower: "I was in the world with the here and now and it doesn`t offer much"

It offers experience, learning, growth, love, joy, tears, laughter, pleasure, pain, challenges, triumphs.... That's worth a whole lot more than an imagined eternity singing hymns in cloud cuckoo land.

I'm 65, and my parents are dead, too. They had their time, and part of them lives on in me, and in their grandchildren and great-children. Death and loss are part of the human condition. Those of us who remain are changed by these experiences, but we grow and move on. To do less would be an insult to the memory of those who went before. Religion is an insipid attempt to dull the pain, but it also blurs the experience, just like opium.

Sky Pilot's picture
science follower,

science follower,

How do you know you will see your parents again? According to the fairy tale everyone will be judged on his own merits on Judgment Day. Maybe one or all three of you fail and get tossed into the lake of fire. Or maybe one will end up in the golden cube. The story doesn't say anything about visitation with people who don't make it into the golden cube.

Now the muslims have a slightly better deal because if you passed Judgment Day you could intercede for 70 of your relatives and try to get them into paradise. But their fairy tale says that most women will be in hell and the women who do go to paradise get continuous duty as sex slaves in some guy's private harem.

Mormon women don't have it much better. They end up in some guy's private harem on his planet as brood mares turning out babies like they are termite queens.

Women in religious fairy tales have lousy eternal lives. They're either getting roasted in hell or in the lake of fire or stuck on eternal duty as a sex slave. But there are no marriages in the golden cube. It's just singing Yahweh's praises 24/7/365 for eternity unless you're stuck with cleaning the latrines.

Sky Pilot's picture
science follower,

science follower,

Even if you're right and do gain eternal life as a Gentile in the golden cube called New Jerusalem you will probably spend eternity cleaning out the latrines.

Amber Horner's picture
@ Devout,

@ Devout,

What a shame that when you die, you'll be maggot food and there will be no special place called heaven....in fact, its premature to assume that simple belief guards you from entering the " kingdom of heaven" Why are you, along with your believers, the only souls to be provided heavenly accent? Do children with cancer who are not old enough to understand Christian belief not have the blessing of God to go to heaven or be cured? Fact is, they die without God in their hearts, so as a matter of fact, this alone represents a kink in your so called belief system. Are they considered " unbeliever's" simply because they are not mentally capable to repent and ask for forgiveness? Thats sick thinking. So here ans now is children and the innocent die every 3 minutes and have not the choice to decide....will they be resurrected, saved, blessed? Where does their so called soul go?

Amber Horner's picture
Um: @ simply, are you now

Um: @ simply, are you now "science follower" in disguise? LMFAO

xenoview's picture
science follower

science follower
Do you have any testable evidence jesus rose from the dead? What writers do you talk about outside of the bible?

Hovitose's picture
I thought this was a site for

I thought this was a site for atheists? Wtf is science follower doing here? Unless he's being sarcastic?

algebe's picture
@Steve: "I thought this was a

@Steve: "I thought this was a site for atheists?"

Hello Steve. Welcome to the AR.

The Atheist Hub is supposed to be just for atheists, but the Debate Room is open to any and all, so there are often believers here trying to convince us of their particular brand of crap. It's always open season if you want to bag a Christian or two.

Science Follower is a regular, but he seems to switch from Christian to agnostic to atheist and back. It's hard to know where he stands.

I like your logo. If I'd had that when I started university back in 1970 I might not have failed Philosophy 101.

Hovitose's picture
Good to 'meet' you too.

Good to 'meet' you too.

mykcob4's picture
Just a note. Crucifixion was

Just a note. Crucifixion was a death by exhaustion. A person nailed to a cross slowly dies from not being able to maintain a position to allow them to breathe. It takes days and it is very painful. Romans NEVER speared anyone nailed to a cross. That would have defeated the purpose of a prolonged painful death.

algebe's picture
@Mykcob4: "Romans NEVER

@Mykcob4: "Romans NEVER speared anyone nailed to a cross."

Right. When they were feeling "merciful" they'd break the victim's legs so they couldn't push themselves up to breathe. The spear legend first appears centuries after the supposed death of Jesus. It's about as real as the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch.

Daniel's picture
Its unfortunate that this

Its unfortunate that this thread has been hijacked. Personally, I do not believe in any god or gods. As to the original intent of this thread, there is no evidence that people are born good or evil. I think all people want to be happy, want to avoid suffering, and want meaningful relationships. Above all this is the instinct to survive. Now how people learn to accomplish this, I think, has to do with environment, also genetics plays a role in capability. Some people do awful things in an attempt to feel good while others have learned more productive ways. This is just what i have observed. Any opinions on the matter?

Amber Horner's picture
@ freefrom god:

@ freefrom god:

Thank you, my thread went haywire....thank you for your input, good thought provoking ideas.....

In response If I may:Above all this is the instinct to survive. Now how people learn to accomplish this, I think, has to do with environment, also genetics plays a role in capability. Some people do awful things in an attempt to feel good while others have learned more productive ways. This is just what i have observed. Any opinions on the matter?

Yes, its always been about nature versus nurture however you bring up a good point.....biology.....edmund kemper, (look him up), both genetically and biologically sound, however; managed to murder his grandparents at a very young age, in bad ways, then put in intuition, ones in which i work, and he manipulated(by knowingness, genetics, biology, or the rather) that he could learn the MPPI. i.e., Minnesota multiphasic personality inventory.....a over 500 questionnaire designed to pin point serial killer or other deviant traists. He beat at age 12 while his obtuse shrink took a pee break. If anyone can do this youre crazy lol. Anyway, hes a 7' tall 200 IQ serial killer who will adamantly admit he derived these skills early on while his obtrusive mother yelled, ridiculed, scorned and degraded him, all the while he displaced his anger on his innocent grandparents . ask yourself, was he learned, or born evil, because in his own words he proclaims:With a girl, there’s a lot left in the girl’s body without a head. Of course, the personality is gone.”- Edmund Kemper
also H.H holmes stated : “I was born with the devil in me. I could not help the fact that I was a murderer, no more than the poet can help the inspiration to sing..I was born with the evil one standing as my sponsor beside the bed where I was ushered into the world, and he has been with me since.” – H.H. Holmes

i ask again...born good or evil?

"I was born with the devil in me. I could not help the fact that I was a murderer, no more than the poet can help the inspiration to sing..I was born with the evil one standing as my sponsor beside the bed where I was ushered into the world, and he has been with me since.”

chimp3's picture
Genetics: Psychopaths born

Genetics: Psychopaths born with malformations in their amygdala , for example. Born good vs. evil is too simple. A person prone to violently selfish behavior might act in ways we consider evil. Then again they might become president.

LogicFTW's picture
If "god" ever wanted to prove

If "god" ever wanted to prove he was real, a lighting bolt on a clear day splattering the president on national television for all to see will have me going to church every sunday. (Hopefully this god specifies which one of the many denominations (if any,) is the correct religious denomination.

Not holding my breath in anticipation though.

bigbill's picture
why don`t you believe in the

why don`t you believe in the Christian God? I t is the biggest following we have. Jesus was a real person so were his disciples who were willing to die for what they believed. Just having goodness is fine only in this life but tell me what explains what happens more after life then the Christian story.what do you see wrong with Christian story anyway?

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