Best proof of NDEs from Dr. Long yet

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Tin-Man's picture
@David Re: Bugs Bunny

@David Re: Bugs Bunny

Ahem!....*clearing throat*....*tapping Dave on shoulder*.....Pssst.....Hey, you.... C'mere....*places hand on Dave's shoulder"...."whispering in Dave's ear*.... Listen, bub, in case you ain't been told, Lord Bugs is actually the Almighty Father of all the Ginormous Cosmic Bunnies, seeeeee?....*quickly looking around in all directions*.... *back to whispering in ear*.... But he ain't wantin' everybody to know that, seeee? Alimony issues, seeeee? So, if ya know what's good for ya, bub, you ain't gonna be blabbin' your mouth 'bout Lord Bugs no more, seeee? Stick with your dream story, bub. Yeah. It was only a dream, seeee?.... *pats Dave gently on shoulder*.... *casually strolls away*....

Sheldon's picture
Wishful thinking coupled with

Wishful thinking coupled with an absurdly low threshold of credulity?

Cognostic's picture
Russian-Tank @ For example,

Russian-Tank @ For example, when you’re under general anesthesia, it should be impossible to have a lucidic organized remembrance at that time.

You have no idea what you are talking about. Everyone is different and responds to anesthesia differently. Tolerances can be built up by illicit drug use. https://www.quora.com/Do-people-who-regularly-use-illegal-drugs-become-t...

An individual's tolerance is directly linked to the way the gaps in their synapses are arranged and synaptic proteins. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3163005/

What puts one person into an induced coma will not have an effect on another. People have woken up and sat up straight on the operating table while under general anesthesia.

About 22% of all people have lucid dreams during the recovery period. Given the distortion of time while under anesthesia they would have no way of recalling when the lucid dreaming actually occurred. (While under or while recovering.)

So some people are lucid while being treated with anesthesia and wake to memories their own minds have created. (WHAT'S YOUR POINT?)

TANK: "23 out of 2000 amazingly accurate, lucid accounts of what happened around patients including doctor comments?"

"AGAIN - So What?" You don't get to call these "NDE" When it is just the anesthetic not doing its job effectively. So you remember a conversation the doctor had accurately. Big frigging deal! SO WHAT!

LISTEN TO DAVID @ "If I had a dream involving Bugs Bunny, is Bugs Bunny a deity?"

If you are willing to believe in magical NDEs, your only response to David is --- YES! He is a member of the tribe of Universe Creating Bunnies. Most of us on the site already know this. Just do a search and you will find all the sources you need. If you are going to believe in magic you may as well join the bunny cult.

arakish's picture
Russian-Tank

Russian-Tank

When are you going to get it through your steel-reinforced concrete skull that NDEs are nothing more than oxygen deprivation hallucinations?

Since you can search so well for those pseudoscience studies, why don't you also search for those studies done by Air Force and Navy physicians who studied the effects g-forces on pilots using centrifuges.

rmfr

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Sheldon's picture
It's hilarious you have to

It's hilarious you have to admit, near death experiences, so humans have experiences, and sometimes they nearly die, but keep having those experiences unless they actually die, fuck me that's mind blowi....oh wait a minute, it means fuck all?

Like people gushing about evidence for UFO's, as if they are too fucking dimwitted to understand what the U stands for, and what that means. Wow we have evidence that someone may have seen something they can't explain, do tell...

Oi Russian Tank, don't post this shit again until you have objective evidence for an **AFTER** death experience. No one denies humans have experiences when they're alive, so this shit is pointless.

Sapporo's picture
Russian-Tank: How can these

Russian-Tank: How can these so called dreams be so consistent?

NDEs actually differ significantly from culture to culture. e.g. in Japanese culture, they are far more likely to involve imagery of gardens rather than Jesus.

The_Quieter's picture
Multiple religions who by

Multiple religions who by their very nature cannot all be right have claimed members of their religion have had NDEs that confirm them.

Explain that.

Russian-Tank's picture
@blinknight

@blinknight

Not Islam, there are NO NDEs of the Prophet, but many Christian NDEs of Jesus who all describe him the same way. Explain that!

Sapporo's picture
@Russian-Tank

@Russian-Tank

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1992-01-20/news/9201060589_1_near-dea...

"Japanese near-death hallucinations tend to involve not tunnels and lights but, rather, rivers or ponds, says New Scientist."

Explain that!

Russian-Tank's picture
@Sapporo

@Sapporo

The content of NDEs is likely influenced by culture in that it is interpreted differently. Ex, someone in USA may say they see a tunnel, while in another place it may be referred to as a hole. Even if there were cultural differences, why is the image of Jesus usually depicted with dark hair when most images and paintings show him with light hair? Shouldn't he look like the images? Some people describe him as the same as the images, some describe him as a light, but from what I have read, I would say about 80% of Christian NDEs say he has dark long hair, a white robe, etc. People say they speak with him telepathically. Most Muslim NDEs are the same as Christian ones up to every detail but they never say they saw Muhammad. Christians always brag about this and say "the reason we see Jesus and they don't see Muhammad is bc he is a fake prophet, and Jesus is God". I have read maybe 500 NDEs. Most do not favour a religion, but I would say I read at least 180 tp 200 Jesus accounts, none with Muhammad. I still wonder if this makes Christianity more possible than other faiths.

Sapporo's picture
@Russian-Tank

@Russian-Tank
Don't Muslims believe Muhammad is dead somewhere in Arabia?

Nyarlathotep's picture
Russian-Tank - ...they never

Russian-Tank - ...they never say they saw Muhammad...none with Muhammad.

We've heard all this before. To recap: it took me less than 20 seconds to find a NDE testimonial with the claim of seeing Muhammad.

I recommend some serious internal reflection as to how that idea got into your head. About how many times you've been told this lie by "sources" involved with NDE's, why you believed them, why you internalized this lie, and how skeptical you should be of anyone you tells you that lie in the future.

Russian-Tank's picture
@Nyarlathotep

@Nyarlathotep
But those NDEs are poor acting, the Christian ones have much more emtotion, these guys read off of a script!

David Killens's picture
@ Russian-Tank

@ Russian-Tank

But passion and conviction do not indicate the truth. There were 19 terrorists willing to die for their beliefs in 911. There have been Buddhist monks who self-immolated themselves because of their convictions. The Japanese practice of Seppuku ( a suicide) was practiced in order to restore honor for themselves or for their family.

And sadly, on a too-regular basis we hear in the news about some suicide bomber.

All of them had an absolute conviction in their beliefs, and I believe we can agree that not all of them were correct in their beliefs.

Nyarlathotep's picture
Russian-Tank - But those NDEs

Russian-Tank - But those NDEs are poor acting, the Christian ones have much more emtotion, these guys read off of a script!

He's reading the English translation of his testimonial, it says that in the video description.

But I think it is telling how you jumped to that conclusion the instant you are presented with something that challenges your world view. Funny how you are skeptical of NDE stories that don't match your religious ideas, but bend over backwards to accept the ones that do.

Even funnier; if you read the previous thread I linked, that is almost exactly what that other Christian did.

This amount of credulity and hypocrisy while shocking, is sadly par for the course.

Russian-Tank's picture
@Nyarlathotep

@Nyarlathotep

Many Christians have been laughing at those videos in the comments, saying that the youtube channel are non Christians making these videos to try to make their religions more believeable. It kind of does look like acting to be honest, but you may be right.

Nyarlathotep's picture
@Russian-Tank

@Russian-Tank

Doesn't it bother you that you seem seem to be skeptical of all religions but one?

Russian-Tank's picture
@Nyarlathotep, there seems to

@Nyarlathotep, there seems to be more evidence though, all are kind of tied, but NDEs tend to favour Christianity

Nyarlathotep's picture
Russian-Tank - ...there seems

Russian-Tank - ...there seems to be more evidence though...

NDE's are not of themselves evidence of the supernatural (like a religious brand).

A well documented NDE story that provided controversial unknown information that later turned out to be accurate, would be excellent evidence for the supernatural. But you might notice: that is exactly what you never provide us. You have managed to lower your bar to claims about your religion (a common form of special pleading), and there is nothing wrong with this; we all do similar stuff all the time. But don't think you will convince others (especially skeptics of your world view) with your lowered bar claims. You need to being a hell of a lot more than the claim that Christians have more NDE's than Muslims.

Russian-Tank's picture
@Nyarlatothep,

@Nyarlatothep,

I see what you are saying, I want to ask you a hypothetical question. If it were proven 100% with proper documentation and people were being honest, and it was found that a couple thousand Christians have really had NDEs where they saw Jesus but not a single Muslim NDE featured Muhammad, would that convince you that Christianity has a better chance of being true over Islam or other faiths, or would you think there may be another explanation for this?

David Killens's picture
Argumentum ad populum

Argumentum ad populum

In argumentation theory, an argumentum ad populum (Latin for "argument to the people") is a fallacious argument that concludes that a proposition must be true because many or most people believe it, often concisely encapsulated as: "If many believe so, it is so."

from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum

Nyarlathotep's picture
Russian-Tank - If it were

Russian-Tank - If it were proven 100% with proper documentation and people were being honest, and it was found that a couple thousand Christians have really had NDEs where they saw Jesus but not a single Muslim NDE featured Muhammad, would that convince you that Christianity has a better chance of being true over Islam or other faiths, or would you think there may be another explanation for this?

Well based on how you have worded it I'm going to have to say no, that wouldn't convince me. But instead let me alter your question where I would say yes:

If it were proven that a religious group could successfully and repeatedly make controversial predictions about the future; my world view would be shattered! It would set them miles apart from any other religious group.

Sheldon's picture
Why would it? People dream

Why would it? People dream about things, and dreams formed in an oxygen deprived brain is hardly a compelling reason to think those dreams having any meaning, beyond the obvious desire of the person who is dreaming to imagine something they find reassuring, or an involuntary dream about a strong belief they already hold.

"or would you think there may be another explanation for this"

You've offered no explanation to counter, merely assertion and assumption. An alternative explanation isn't needed, as you have yet to offer any evidence that these dreams are themselves evidence. And of course Muslims do have the same kind of dreams when they suffer a trauma and their brains are being oxygen starved. I linked several sites showing data for these when you earlier claimed they didn't.

LogicFTW's picture
@Russian-Tank

@Russian-Tank

I know you asked this question to Nylar, but I find it an interesting enough question I wanted to respond as well.

...would that convince you that Christianity has a better chance of being true over Islam or other faiths

A slightly better chance of being true over Islam yes, but would it prove Christianity or any GOD idea to me? No, the overall evidence is still overwhelmingly in the direction of man created the god idea instead of god creating man.

or would you think there may be another explanation for this?

I would think there is another explanation for this. What is more likely? Against all evidence that christianity (or any, not picking on christianity in particular) is right, or that something else was going on, something like: christianity faith likes to point people towards NDE's where the Muslim faith steers people away from the idea of NDE's. To me, the culture/faith of the followers seems much more likely than, this one idea proving one god over another.

A quote that I feel is applicable:

"The best liars are the ones that do not know they are lying."

Sheldon's picture
Russian-Tank " there are NO

Russian-Tank " there are NO NDEs of the Prophet, but many Christian NDEs of Jesus who all describe him the same way. Explain that!"

https://www.near-death.com/religion/islam.html

http://aboutislam.net/science/faith-science/near-death-experiences-islam...

http://aboutislam.net/counseling/ask-about-islam/near-death-experiences-...

https://digital.library.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metadc461743/

You're of course wrong yet again, though these experiences prove nothing, much like the christian claims. They are merely assumptions, appeal to ignorance coupled with wishful thinking and an incredibly low bar for credulity.

Russian-Tank's picture
@Sheldon, I'm wrong? Look at

@Sheldon, I'm wrong? Look at those links you posted. None of them describe an NDE where a Muslim meets the Prophet. Sure Muslims have NDEs, but Christians will always use the lack of seeing their key figure in an NDE and compare it to them seeing Jesus, and use that as proof that Christianity is true.

Sheldon's picture
Meets? Listen to yourself,

Meets? Listen to yourself, you don't meet anyone in a dream in any real sense, read my entire post and try to address what I said with something approaching an open mind.

"Christians will always use the lack of seeing their key figure in an NDE and compare it to them seeing Jesus, and use that as proof that Christianity is true."

Of course they do, their bias and low bar for credulity is well understood on this site. However it's not even evidence let alone proof. Dreaming about unicorns doesn't make them real, why would it?

The_Quieter's picture
So basically you can't answer

So basically you can't answer the point I made.

Statement of Fact: Other religions have NDEs and many of these religions are mutually exclusive to the point that they cannot all be right.

You sitting back and saying 'but I'm stating that Muslims don't have NDEs that fit what I claim a Muslim NDE would have to entail...'

Does not change the facts. Other religions that your religion says cannot be right claim NDE and tout them as evidence or proof of their religion. Here are your options.

A. All other NDEs except yours are deceptions or delusions.
B. All NDEs regardless of who sees them are products of the human brain undergoing extreme conditions and are therefore evidence of little beyond our inability to explain what happened.

You should probably pick "B" since in choosing "A" you're going to have to present evidence of some kind that yours are the "real" visions and theirs are the "false" ones while somehow getting around the fact that the very nature of deception means you do not know you are being deceived.

Let me drop you a hint here. Once upon a time I was very very sick and had a fever. I was on several medications. I awoke so convinced that my wall beside my bed was covered in insects by the hundreds that I literally fell out of bed getting away from it and then looked over to see... absolutely nothing there. I realized immediately that in my sick, drug addled, half asleep state I had seen something that wasn't there. I did not, as you are doing with NDEs, attempt to make it into some kind of prophetic vision.

Anonymous's picture
The problem with NDEs is that

The problem with NDEs is that it can't be proven. We don't have the technology yet. Skeptics have every right to dismiss them because they require proof.

But they do exist. I had one. It cannot be proven, so I don't expect anyone to believe me. I have no proof. What I do have is the knowledge that there is another "dimension", if you will, when the body dies. We go on. We don't die. There is nothing religious about it.

Other credible professionals have experienced NDE (Oliver Sacks' book Musicophilia includes two episodes in which his colleagues have experienced.) They are the better for it because they, too, know that when the body dies, our consciousness goes on. That is a whole another mystery that just cannot be proven. As an atheist, before I experienced it, I thought those who said they went through an NDE were nuts, or it was some medical mystery of the mind.

But it does happen. For now, those who don't believe NDEs exist shouldn't be expected to be convinced, because the idea is so outrageous. But it does exist.

Sheldon's picture
“The problem with NDEs is

“The problem with NDEs is that it can't be proven.”
>>Well in what way “proven”, I mean it is a fact that we dream, and that our brains store memories, and that this continues until the brain dies. I’m not sure why the proximity of death is being used to imply anything here.

“We don't have the technology yet.”
>>Technology for what exactly? There are things about how the human brain works we don’t currently understand to be sure. This doesn’t justify any assumption about what we don’t know. There is no valid evidence to justify that what is being described here is as NDE’s are anything but natural phenomena

“Skeptics (sic) have every right to dismiss them because they require proof.”
>>I’m not sure there is anything to dismiss, other than the claims something supernatural is being witnessed, which of course there is no objective evidence for.

“But they do exist. I had one. It cannot be proven, so I don't expect anyone to believe me. “
>>You mean dreams exist? Why would anyone not believe that? Again forgive me, but you seem to be implying something else, something more than a natural phenomena.

“I have no proof. What I do have is the knowledge that there is another "dimension", if you will, when the body dies. “
>>Is this knowledge you can demonstrate any objective evidence for? What is it based it exactly?

“We go on. We don't die. There is nothing religious about it.”
>>Nothing approaching evidence either, so far it’s just a claim. No open minded person could be anything but dubious, sorry.

“Other credible professionals have experienced NDE (Oliver Sacks' book Musicophilia includes two episodes in which his colleagues have experienced.) “
>>Ok I’m starting to tire of asking this, but so what? Humans have experiences and dreams all the time, what is it you’re implying the proximity or threat of death is evidence for here? People have experiences and people have them right up until they die, nothing supernatural is needed to explain this.

“They are the better for it because they, too, know that when the body dies, our consciousness goes on.”
>>I don’t believe that, what objective evidence can you demonstrate to support that claim? Near death isn’t dead, so the brain is still alive while you’re dying.

“That is a whole another mystery that just cannot be proven.”
>>Mysteries by definition are not validated evidence, this sounds again liek argumentum ad ignorantiam.

“As an atheist, before I experienced it, I thought those who said they went through an NDE were nuts, or it was some medical mystery of the mind.”
>>Why? All I can see is a natural phenomenon, and some unevidenced assumptions about what it indicates? The fact people keep experiencing things as the brain dies doesn’t mean the brain is going to survive it’s own death in any meaningful way. I’m not sure why atheism has any relevance here.

“For now, those who don't believe NDEs exist shouldn't be expected to be convinced, because the idea is so outrageous. But it does exist.”
>>Wow, no one has claimed the human brain doesn’t keep experiencing things while it is alive, and there is nothing outrageous about the statement, as it is a fact. The only claim being rejected is that this implies something supernatural is occurring, or that the brain survives it’s own death, as there is no objective evidence being demonstrated for either assertion.

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