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Bringing you atheist articles and building active godless communities takes hundreds of hours and resources each month. If you find any joy or stimulation at Atheist Republic, please consider becoming a Supporting Member with a recurring monthly donation of your choosing, between a cup of tea and a good dinner.
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Hi, Sheldon. First, thank you for your post. It demonstrates much thought and energy on your part. This is a great compliment to me.
As an atheist, I completely understand your doubt. You are still looking for proof of NDEs. There IS no proof. Agreed? There is no evidence for NDEs. I agree with you 100%. So if you looking for a debate from me, I can't give it to you, because I agree with you. There is not one iota of proof that a stranger can give you.
I can only give you my testimony of it. If you knew me as a credible person who was just as skeptical as you are now, you'd know that the mere fact that I share the experience has been slow-coming.
But it happened. And it happened to me. You don't have to believe me. But it happened. It doesn't make sense, and it goes beyond anything we can measure. But it happened.
Again, thank you for your post.
Once again this is the question.
Multiple religions have all claimed that members of their religion have had NDEs that confirm the religion in question.
At least some of the religions are mutually exclusive. It is impossible in every single sense of the word that they can all be right. It is even impossible for 'some but not all' of them to be right. In fact a lot of these religions require that every single solitary NDE that confirms some other religion must be wrong somehow.
It doesn't matter if you tout how "credible" somebody is. You're still stuck with the fact that other religions also claim NDEs.
And another thing that NDE proponents leave out is that not all NDEs are religious in nature. This is what my 'hint' was with my fever/drug induced hallucination. People see and hear all kinds of insane and impossible stuff while under the effects of extreme stress, trauma, and when their brains aren't working properly.
The blood isn't flowing right, your body temperature is wrong, your brain can't function properly, you're potentially somewhere between conscious and unconscious... and you mean to tell me you started seeing things? No kidding.
You're also probably not aware of various things the brain does to compensate for things. Even when people are wide awake and totally lucid they see all kinds of things. It's been proven time and again even in simulated crimes where the witnesses knew what they were seeing was just an act but were not told ahead of time what would happen that their accounts of what happened and "who did it" were wildly inconsistent with each other and, here's the kicker, when they were called back days later to repeat what they saw that their own statements were inconsistent with what they had previously said. Simply by sitting around "thinking" about it they managed to invent details in their own minds about something they were wide awake for and expecting to be questioned about.
Now put them half asleep, unexpected, under extreme stress, or in the extreme example we're talking about: almost dying... with the ability to wake up later and try to "make sense" of what they think they saw?
NDEs are extremely difficult to describe because they're so surreal. It was not a hallucination; I've had those. It was not a feverish vision; I've had those, too.
NDEs are identifiable because you know things about the setting in which it takes place, that in reality, are impossible to see. The proof is after the episode, you can account for things you had know way of knowing. Who was in the room, who was outside the house, etc. That's how you test NDE's. It is an unforgettable experience because ... there is no fear of death. Bring it on! Life continues after the body dies. That's very valuable knowledge to have.
Life does continue after the body dies. Taken literally, this is truth, you die, but your living relatives live on, other people live on, other life, animals, plants lives on. I know, I know, you mean your own life, you mean the other definition of life: "my life" and then you want to divorce it from having anything to do with actual life/living that your "life" does not end when you body stops living. An understandable response, we are all programed to fear death and we want to be able to think we do not actually "die," When our physical body can no longer perform the function of keeping the brain and conscious/memories going.
However one of the first thing that "dies" as your body begins the final irreversible course the process of dying at much accelerated rate, is your brain, brain cells that are highly reliant on oxygen, the brain begins to die within a few minutes of not having oxygen.
Your memories, all that you are, (memories and ego) fade out as the brain cells and the trillions upon trillions of connections in your brains die and no longer function. A high end medical team with proper equipment can keep your body alive for weeks even if the brain is dead, it can artificially keep pumping oxygen and nutrients to all the organs that need it.
Or the next level, you donate a body part you do not need to live (or in the case of brain death, do not need at all!) and that body part lives on in the body of the person you donated it to. Perhaps even for decades.
This philosophical question starts to get real interesting when a person loses all memory of who they are, did that person "die" when they lost their memory? How about if we are able to one day upload all our memories, thoughts, brain connections into a computer that can accurately mimic the functions of your human brain? Do we become immortal? We can also make literally thousands of copies of ourselves, and "talk" to the thousands of copies of ourselves? What happens when one copy dies? Do we die then?
Clearly, the somewhat arbitrary "line" of death of a person that we humans have come up with is drawn somewhere very close to brain death. Lost of conscious, (higher brain function,) with little to no hope of recovery.
I'll just keep bringing up the point that you're dodging.
Other religions also claim NDEs and these religions all say that only they can be right. You have no choice if you're say, a Christian then you must believe that if a Hindu or Muslim or any other member of a religion has an NDE that they are wrong. You have no choice here, you have no other options, you are absolutely stuck with the fact that if another person belonging to a different religion claims an NDE that confirms their religious beliefs... Then you must reject it out of hand, no matter how 'compelling' a story they manage to create about it.
They must do the same for your NDE in most cases.
All you can do is say 'everyone else but me is wrong' and you're sitting in a circle with a bunch of people saying the exact same thing about everyone but them including you. You are not doing anything different than what religious people always do in this regard: you must believe everyone else is wrong, without anyway to prove them wrong.
The example I like to use is you have ten people looking at an empty table all describing what they think is sitting on the table while insisting that everyone else just "can't see it"... You can't all be right but you can all be wrong.
blinknight,
Nice post!
Anyone who can validly dismiss all of the other NDE claims (while advancing their own NDE interpretation) has axed their own tree as well. What serves as sauce for the goose is also sauce for the gander.
Magnificent Beast,
Can you cite a scientific study, written up in a respectable scientific journal, showing that people experiencing NDEs know things they had no way of knowing? You can't believe everything you hear.
Hi, Greensnake.
No, I don't know of any.
And I repeat...
Russian-Tank
When are you going to get it through your steel-reinforced concrete skull that NDEs are nothing more than oxygen deprivation hallucinations?
Since you can search so well for those pseudoscience studies, why don't you also search for those studies done by Air Force and Navy physicians who studied the effects g-forces on pilots using centrifuges.
Notice the emphasis...
rmfr
Attachments
Attach Image/Video?:
Sounds like someone needs a hug.
You don't have to agree, but insulting someone's intelligence is a bit immature, don't you think? So you don't agree; so what.
If you're sincerely trying to convince others of your beliefs, insulting them is not the way to do it. Or is your goal just to put others' down to raise you up?
And you ain't been here long. So I'll try explaining it bluntly. In fact I am kind of a yungun here. However, in the eight months I have been here Russian Tank has posted about NDEs at least once a month, or near about. I have repeatedly told him since he can find the pseudoscience articles so easily, then he can also find the journal articles written by Navy and Air Force physicians who have studied the phenomenon suffered by pilots in high-g situations where they black out from oxygen deprivation while in those centrifuges. There are also articles written by neuro-scientists who have also studied this phenomenon. They all come to the conclusion that it is merely the brain suffering from oxygen deprivation. He refuses to actually study more deeply into those journal articles and on a couple of occasions I gave him links. Thus, I can only conclude that he does have a steel reinforced concrete skull. I NEVER said anything about his intelligence. Just his hardheadedness.
As for knowing facts when they should not, it is also documented that persons can have memories implanted even in an unconscious state. I have many of these during and after the accident, when I was in a comatose state, that killed my wife and twin daughters, and nearly killed me. I just do not talk about them.
As others have said, when a person just continues to spew garbage and refuses to listen to reason, facts, evidence, and logic, then vehemence starts settling in. I am not insulting him. I am just simply stating facts. He refuses to read the actual journal articles written by actual physicians and instead only reads the pseudoscience articles he so fondly holds onto like the Religious Absolutists hold onto their baseless faiths.
If you find it insulting, then sorry, not my problem. I have tried to get him to see reason through reasonable suggestions. After a time, my patience wears thin and the big guns come out. If reason won't work, then perhaps getting a little rough might. However, it does not seem to working. When it comes to NDEs, Russian Tank is just as bad as the Religious Absolutists.
rmfr
@MB Re: "Sounds like someone needs a hug."
Hey there, MB. Yeah, just to bring you up to speed a bit since you are new here, our ol' pal Russian Tank is quite the regular here for the past several months. And he has this truly unhealthy obsession with NDE's for some reason none of us can quite figure out. Several of us have even sincerely advised him to seek professional therapy/counseling, as it seems to be a rather disturbing ruling factor of his life that he has claimed causes him much worry and anxiety. Yet, once every few weeks, he pops back in here with the EXACT SAME SONG AND DANCE every single time, despite how pretty much every single person on here has told him the exact same things over and over and over. Sadly, the poor kid simply will not listen to reason. Yet, he is a regular here, and we have all come to know him in our own way. To me, he is now something like the stereotypical annoying little kid brother who barges into the room without knocking singing some infuriatingly annoying song he learned months ago over and over and over. Sure, he can be aggravating, but I can't really bring myself to get mad at him. Truth be known, I really hope he finds a way to get over this NDE obsession soon. It isn't good for him.
NDE is a phenomena that cannot be proven in 2018. I, too, thought it was just a hallucination or madeup in my brain, until I had my own NDE experience.
I'm not going to share how I know it was NDE because I've tried before and naysayers are not open to anything that cannot be proven. I completely understand this! I used to be one of them. In my experience, there were facts that I could not have known.
There are others who have credible experiences which cannot be proven. I just ask that you consider the possibility.
I find that many people equate NDE with a religious experience. There's nothing religious about it.
I don't think anyone doubts that NDE's are a real thing. What we are skeptical of is that they represent contact with the supernatural (for lack of a better way to put it).
@Magnificent Beast
As Nylar mentioned when you talk about NDE's that way we need to find a common definition for it. The term as it is used now is too vague. Most of us just assume we are talking about the religious connotations of NDE's as that is what was emphasized in the original OP and most of the conversation here.
I have had multiple "near death experiences" when taking that sentence literally. I even nearly drowned in water to the point that the last thing I remember is everything in my "minds vision" going white while fighting the urge to take a breath of water. (I was pulled out of the water sometime within a minute after I lost conscious.) Is that an NDE to you?
If so, why are we really talking about NDE's? Anyone that has nearly died has had an NDE, I imagine most of us have had moments in our lives where we were "near" death.
Yeah, we need some better v̶e̶r̶n̶a̶c̶u̶l̶a̶r̶ jargon. I had a hard time even expressing what I mean about being skeptical of the supernatural content of NDEs (I'm still having trouble!).
How about RNDE - Religious Near Death Experience...
Naw, again, I have little doubt all kinds of people have religious near death experiences.
Maybe SNDE - Supernatural Near Death Experience...
Meh, not catchy enough.
Anyone got any ideas?
SNIDE
Supernatural Near !Influenced! Death Experience.
Okay I did not put much effort into this. ;)
NODE? Nearly Obscure Dying Experience...
rmfr
Fully Arrested Resuscitated Trauma?
NEESA
No explanation equals superstitious assumption.
---------------------------
CEAASE
Can't explain it at all so I'll exaggerate.
----------------------
OSBAS
Oxygen starved brain = assumption and superstition.
--------------------------
"Anyone got any ideas?"
It's funny you should ask.
"Just another human experience / dream" (but slightly closer to the end than some others).
I'm working on a pithy acronym. So far I've got nothing.
Nyar, how about SNDEAS - supernatural near death experience after 60 (yrs old)
or
SNDEUF - supernatural near death experience under 50 (yrs old)
Nope nothing religious about it. Just a hallucination. Get over it and accept the facts. I have had a NDE. However, I also know it for what exactly it was.
rmfr
@Arakish,
Did your NDE have any bright lights or an OBE? Was there anything about it others would have used as proof for the validity of NDEs that didn't seem real to you?
"anything about it others would have used as proof for the validity of NDEs "
validity
noun
the quality of being logically or factually sound; soundness or cogency.
Could you as concisely as possible explain what is valid about unexplained dreams? I feel your obsession with the proximity of death to these particular dreams is causing you to make biased assumptions about them. Assumptions that no one has yet demonstrated any evidence for. As Nyarl says, I don't see anything in them that validates anything supernatural.
Humans experience dreams, when our brains are dying from oxygen starvation these can take on a different intensity perhaps, though this has not been properly evidenced, but it would hardly be surprising, and again I see nothing that even suggests this isn't an entirely natural phenomenon. The religious aspect I'd have thought would be precisely what you'd expect given the anticipation of death and an afterlife feature so heavily in religions, and probably has been the single strongest motivator for humans to create such religions and beliefs, and hang onto them.
Science, logic, philosophy won't and haven't dented superstition, but if we ever found a way to cure mortality, I think that would probably negate the reasons for religions.
Dreams are just dream, just as UFO's are just something we can't explain, until we can explain them, until then assumptions are simply people indulging bias in favour of what they want to believe. For me the acid test here is that i set the same standard for believing the claims these dreams represent evidence of something supernatural, as I set for everything else. Once you start to set an arbitrary standard for beliefs you favour you can believe anything. There is nothing I believe as true that I wouldn't relinquish tomorrow if objective evidence required me to.
"proof for the validity of NDEs "
How can a dream be validated? If you dream about unicorns does that make them real to you?
Dreams can't validate anything.
@Arakish
But did it feel real enough that someone could at least mistake it for something real? I mean, most nders 100% convinced in their minds they went elsewhere. They say ndes feel more real than real life, they could see better, smell,better, hear better, see things they couldn't have known about, etc
"most nders 100% convinced in their minds"
Argumentum ad populum. Also paranoid delusional are 100% convinced in their minds as well. That level of certainty is rarely a good sign.
@ Russian Tank
Bright lights? No. Just a bright light.
Out of Body Experience? Unknown. Did not feel like it. Yet also did not not feel like it.
Was there anything about it others would have used as proof for the validity of NDEs that didn't seem real to you? Yeah God spoke with me. Since I believe in no God, then it could not have been real. However, it was "real" in the sense that I experienced it.
But did it feel real enough that someone could at least mistake it for something real? I mean, most nders 100% convinced in their minds they went elsewhere. They say ndes feel more real than real life, they could see better, smell better, hear better, see things they couldn't have known about, etc. You mean like the schizophrenic dissociative delusions I still suffer when I go through a particularly horrible night terror? You mean as real as those dreams one can have occasionally where they cannot tell the difference between if it is real or a dream? Everybody has those at least once in their lifetime. At least once.
So yes. It felt "real" since I did experience it.
In actuality, want to know what it actually was? Since I was in a full-blown coma and near death, it was my mind's way to keep me balanced in the here and now. It was actually me talking to me. Me keeping me sane. Me stimulating me to keep me stabilized in the coma.
As I have said, you just need to delve into those actual scientific journal articles about NDEs instead of those pseudoscience articles which were probably written by Religious Absolutists with their Christian Agenda. As it says in the X-Files moniker: "The Truth is Out There".
rmfr
@arakish
That is very interesting, thanks for sharing. If you don't mind my asking, what did God say? And was there anything within the experience that was inconsistent where you could easily tell that it wasn't really a soul leaving your body?
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