Denmark acknowledges failure of multiculturalism - forced assimilation

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Terminal Dogma's picture
Denmark acknowledges failure of multiculturalism - forced assimilation

Act like the people in the country you migrated to or lose your rights seems to be the rationale here. Didn't think the rejection of leftist ideas would get this blatant this quick.

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2018/07/01/world/europe/denmark-immigrant-ghe...

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TheBlindWatchmaker's picture
Not a good way to create

Not a good way to create integration, albeit I do agree that assimilating to the culture you live in is a positive idea.
Perhaps incentivise integration, rather then punish those deemed to not be conforming.

Terminal Dogma's picture
Isn't migrating to a safe,

Isn't migrating to a safe, generous country to escape the dangerous, violent shit hole you left incentive enough?

Sheldon's picture
A rather silly question given

A rather silly question given you have answered it in your OP. Tell me I'm curious are you able to denigrate anything without attributing the cause to left wing views? I don't see any specifically left wing policies being abandoned in this story/ Your atheism must kill you given left leaning views are more likely to be atheist than those bible thumping right wing fascists?

Note my ironic use of rhetoric and hyperbole there, I wonder if at any point the penny will drop.
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Incidentally not all aspects of multiculturalism are negative, you are again focusing exclusively on the negative, why is that I wonder?

"Denmark’s government is introducing a new set of laws to regulate life in 25 low-income and heavily Muslim enclaves, saying that if families there do not willingly merge into the country’s mainstream, they should be compelled."

We can rationally infer that there are Muslim families that do "willingly merge into the country’s mainstream" then, or else the Danish government wouldn't be focusing on specific areas. In the UK there are many problems from immigration as elsewhere, but it is spurious to claim immigration hasn't given more positives than negatives. Sadly there is always a certain mindset fearful of change that will always focus exclusively on the negatives.

Note they are not stopping immigrants coming to Denmark, nor even suggesting this is desirable. The article goes on...

"Leaders are focusing their ire on urban neighbourhoods where immigrants, some of them placed there by the government, live in dense concentrations with high rates of unemployment and gang violence."

So immigration is not even the only causal factor, but other factors derived from the Danish authorities own policies. I have always considered my views left leaning, but I am failing to see how this is in any way an "abandonment of leftist policies" Ironically though the Danish government did abandon some of the proposed right wing policies as "too radical"

"Some proposals have been rejected as too radical, like one from the far-right Danish People’s Party that would confine “ghetto children” to their homes after 8 p.m. (Challenged on how this would be enforced, Martin Henriksen, the chairman of Parliament’s integration committee, suggested in earnest that young people in these areas could be fitted with electronic ankle bracelets.)"

It's funny how your rhetoric and hyperbole don't actually stand up when one digs into the facts even a little bit. the vast majority of Muslims in the west are decent law abiding citizens by any reasonable standard. I can dislike Islam without resorting to bigotry about Muslims. I find it absurd to imagine that given the chance most people wouldn't prefer to live and raise children in a free just and equal society. It'll be interesting to see how the Danish response develops, and if it helps improve multiculturalism by removing pernicious cultural attitudes from some, and whether other western democracies take note. Compared to the kind of overtly racist rhetoric Trump doles out this seems like a measured response to a very specific problem from a minority of immigrants to me. Maybe somebody could send him a copy of their proposals? I'm not sure how the EU's charter on human rights is going to gel with some of these ideas mind.

Cognostic's picture
WOW! I really hate to admit

WOW! I really hate to admit it, but I agree, "Starting at the age of 1, “ghetto children” must be separated from their families for at least 25 hours a week, not including nap time, for mandatory instruction in “Danish values,” including the traditions of Christmas and Easter, and Danish language. Noncompliance could result in a stoppage of welfare payments. Other Danish citizens are free to choose whether to enroll children in preschool up to the age of six."

Unfortunately this should have been a part of the deal they signed and agreed to prior to entering the country. Islam is in need of significant reform and perhaps a New Testament like the Christians have. Most of the Christian sects don't follow the hate that is contained in the New Testament and when we bring up the Old Testament they are quick to tell us it does not count. (It does not matter that Jesus says it does) The Christians just ignore all the hate Jesus spews and calls him a peaceful man. Ha ha ha ha ,,,,, Never mind that not a jot nor tittle of the law will ever change. Never mind that Jesus came to fulfill the law and not change it. Never mind that he did not come to bring peace but a sward. The Christians are simply ignorant of their religious text. Not the Muslims though. "Kill the non-believer." The mantra shouted from Mosques even in America.

Sheldon's picture
"WOW! I really hate to admit

"WOW! I really hate to admit it, but I agree, "Starting at the age of 1, “ghetto children” must be separated from their families for at least 25 hours a week, not including nap time, for mandatory instruction in “Danish values,” including the traditions of Christmas and Easter, and Danish language. Noncompliance could result in a stoppage of welfare payments. Other Danish citizens are free to choose whether to enroll children in preschool up to the age of six.""

As do I, as I have have always maintained the answer to bigotry is education. What's not clear is how this is being painted as an abandonment of leftist policies? Though I'm dubious about what exactly they mean by the "traditions of Christmas and Easter. Too often a small minority of religiously driven extremism ends with the tail wagging the dog. A child's state education should be entirely secular in my opinion, and faith schools are an abhorrent and absurdly divisive idea.

Sheldon's picture
More from the article:

More from the article:

"Yildiz Akdogan, a Social Democrat whose parliamentary constituency includes Tingbjerg, which is classified as a ghetto, said Danes had become so desensitized to harsh rhetoric about immigrants that they no longer register the negative connotation of the word “ghetto” and its echoes of Nazi Germany’s separation of Jews.

“We call them ‘ghetto children, ghetto parents,’ it’s so crazy,” Ms. Akdogan said. “It is becoming a mainstream word, which is so dangerous. People who know a little about history, our European not-so-nice period, we know what the word ‘ghetto’ is associated with.”

She pulled out her phone to display a Facebook post from a right-wing politician, railing furiously at a Danish supermarket for selling a cake reading “Eid Mubarak,” for the Muslim holiday of Eid. “Right now, facts don’t matter so much, it’s only feelings,” she said. “This is the dangerous part of it.”

THIS WAS INTERESTING:

"For their part, many residents of Danish “ghettos” say they would move if they could afford to live elsewhere. On a recent afternoon, Ms. Naassan was sitting with her four sisters in Mjolnerparken, a four-story, red brick housing complex that is, by the numbers, one of Denmark’s worst ghettos: forty-three percent of its residents are unemployed, 82 percent come from “non-Western backgrounds,” 53 percent have scant education and 51 percent have relatively low earnings."

"The Naassan sisters wondered aloud why they were subject to these new measures. The children of Lebanese refugees, they speak Danish without an accent and converse with their children in Danish; their children, they complain, speak so little Arabic that they can barely communicate with their grandparents. Years ago, growing up in Jutland, in Denmark’s west, they rarely encountered any anti-Muslim feeling, said Sara, 32."

It's hard to tell from one article how much of the rhetoric driving this is based on facts. An election looming has driven the issue of immigration to the fore and that usually involves extreme views being aired by opportunistic politicians.

Terminal Dogma's picture
Sheldon must be hard for you

Sheldon must be hard for you as a leftists now that the data is starting to emerge about the consequences in the real world of feminist/leftist policy.

The dream of one big beautiful brown world is disintegrating like a slow motion train wreck.

Sapporo's picture
If an argument is valid or

If an argument is valid or invalid, dogmatic labels such as leftist or rightist are not necessary.

Terminal Dogma's picture
It's a policy question, and

It's a policy question, and who makes what policies with what consequences are valid to even make an argument.

Sapporo's picture
@Terminal Dogma, can you

@Terminal Dogma, can you define "leftist" without sounding absurd? The term offers no value to your arguments - it just makes you seem like you are tilting at windmills.

Terminal Dogma's picture
I don't think anyone can

I don't think anyone can describe or define leftist without sounding absurd. Just not possible.......see what I did there.

Sapporo's picture
@Terminal Dogma

@Terminal Dogma
You seem to use the word "leftist" to mean "everything I hate", which is purely an emotive definition.

Terminal Dogma's picture
No, I just dislike a lot of

No, I just dislike a lot of leftist policies because they only seem to make everything worse for everyone.

Sapporo's picture
But why do you not care to

But why do you not care to define what you mean by "leftist"?

Terminal Dogma's picture
You asked if I could define

You asked if I could define leftist with sounding absurd, I told you it's impossible.

David Killens's picture
@Terminal Dogma

@Terminal Dogma

You reminded me of a SJW Antifa protester who loudly proclaimed she was fighting fascism. When asked to define "fascism", she was at a loss for words.

Here's a little titwhittle to digest .. the US interstates (the Dwight D. Eisenhower National System of Interstate and Defense Highways) is socialism through and through. It's as left as it can get.

algebe's picture
@Sapporo: what you mean by

@Sapporo: what you mean by "leftist"?

I'd define "leftism" in its modern context as excessive reliance on the power of the state to fix problems. In its extreme form, it leads to the nationalization of industries, stultifying regulation, and ultimately collectivism, tyranny, and poverty.

Sapporo's picture
@Algebe

@Algebe
I can't say I like the use of "left-wing", "right-wing" etc. as broad generalizations, particularly when specific detail is desirable.

algebe's picture
@Sapporo:

@Sapporo:

I agree. The terms are well and truly outmoded. I think they originated in the French Revolution. I defined the term purely from my own perceptions, but there are many other definitions. Most people have a mix of "left" or "right" positions in different issues. I tend to view things along a freedom-control spectrum, with the religious right and tax-and-spend socialism firmly at the control end.

Sapporo's picture
@Algebe yes. Terms like

@Algebe yes. Terms like "leftist" or "left-wing" are synecdoches that have never really meant anything.

There's a good possibility that much of what @Terminal Dogma would have deemed "leftist" 50 years ago would be considered common sense nowadays. But of course, it would be a mistake to act as though that validates or invalidates a political outlook. Best to discuss each issue on its own merits.

@Terminal Dogma

you seem to believe either that something is wrong because it is leftist, or something is leftist because it is wrong.

When I asked that you define the term "leftist" without sounding absurd, I meant defining it in a neutral and accurate way, instead of as an pejorative for everything you dislike.

Sheldon's picture
Now where is that 1000 agrees

Now where is that 1000 agrees button.

In answer to your question leftists seems to be a pejorative term TD uses for everything he disagrees with. A one size fits all piece of rhetoric. It's bizarre how he can go from cogent critical thinking on non political topics to blind vapid rhetoric whenever politics is mentioned. I mean it really is bizarre...not unlike someone who is unable to shake an addiction or an indoctrination.

LogicFTW's picture
I wonder if terminal dogma

I wonder if terminal dogma realizes that the current "right and not left" party the GOP, is the party of Lincoln. Yep, a Republican president freed the slaves, shredding the highest law of the land, the constitution while doing so.

Ofcourse, good ole Abe Lincoln also thought black people should not have the same rights as white people, and they should all be "exported back to Africa" and he really only freed the slaves to help win the civil war he was currently losing. And ofcourse black people faced and continue to face heavy persecution and racism to this day in supposedly: "the greatest country the world has ever seen." Decades after many other countries already abolished slavery. Yep that does sound like your typical trump fan boy right there.

Peurii's picture
While this is true, there is

While this is true, there is way too much self flagellation in the west today. Compared to the rest of the world, the west is still the place to be. It might not live up to it's own expressed ideals, but I'd much rather live in the USA as a muslil poc, or what ever, than in China for example.

Sheldon's picture
Sapporo

Sapporo

"I can't say I like the use of "left-wing", "right-wing" etc. as broad generalizations, particularly when specific detail is desirable."

You nailed it again fair play.

Sheldon's picture
The only that's hard is

The only thing that's hard is deciphering that vapid rhetoric into a cogent sentence sorry? Though it's no surprise a few facts from your own link has you running to the right wing book of trite rhetoric you seem to think is impressive. No actual substance to offer on my points about the (news story) you linked then?

The_Quieter's picture
...And based on your post you

...And based on your post you seem to be an expert on trite rhetoric.

He has pointed out that in this instance what is known basically as a 'great thing' by those on the left has turned out to have not worked.

Your first step is to acknowledge in this instance that it has not worked. It has failed. It is in this case a demonstrable failure. This is not admitting that the idea itself is wrong, this is admitting in this instance that it didn't work and produced negative results. This isn't up for debate, it's a fact.

Assuming your ideas are ultimately correct recognizing when they fail so you can make corrections is how you make progress. You do not dogmatically continue as a religious person does to simply continue on down a path while ignoring failures simply because you're sure it's the right path.

Sheldon's picture
"He has pointed out that in

"He has pointed out that in this instance what is known basically as a 'great thing' by those on the left has turned out to have not worked."

Not even remotely true, firstly define worked? Immigration contributes massive positives, both economic and social, focusing on the worst aspects of it and on a small minority is hardly proof it doesn't work, it is the very definition of (right wing) empty rhetoric. The Donald Trump approach to political discussion. What's more the single news story he linked had contrary views expressed, but anyone who disagrees with political views is disparaged with a pejorative term ending lefty or leftist, again the very definition of the "empty rhetoric reproach".

"Your first step is to acknowledge in this instance that it has not worked. It has failed."

No it isn't and no it hasn't. Again you are implying a massively complex process has only two possible outcomes, this is a typical lazy use of reductio ad absurdum logic to try and pretend something they disagree with isn't A, therefore it can only be B. Immigration is a necessity for most post industrialised countries, as they would struggle to function without it. In the vast majority of cases immigrants become decent hard working law abiding citizens of the countries they settle in, so how does a minority of cases causing problems add up to a failure exactly?

"This is not admitting that the idea itself is wrong, this is admitting in this instance that it didn't work and produced negative results. This isn't up for debate, it's a fact."

Wrong on both counts, but thanks for trying to tell me what I can debate and what I can't, or what claims I can consider valid in a debate. Scientific facts are not up for debate on here, as they are validated by strict methods which is what makes them scientific facts. What he offered was a single news story, and even that had different viewpoints in it, so try again.

"Assuming your ideas are ultimately correct recognizing when they fail so you can make corrections is how you make progress. You do not dogmatically continue as a religious person does to simply continue on down a path while ignoring failures simply because you're sure it's the right path."

Not too condescending there, but if it's ok with you I'll work my limited intellect through the process without regarding your assertions or TD's or anybody else's as a fait accompli.

So firstly we can note that immigration is a success story in far more cases than it represents the kind of failures offered in that story, and of course this doesn't ignore the problems or mean we stop trying find ways to prevent them as the Danish government is trying to do with a small minority of the immigrants that have settled there, caused at least in part by their own policies, and again as the story makes clear if you read it all.

By comparison to the millions of happy law abiding immigrants, the problems are sensationalised and reported with an hysterical tone in order to play on people's fears, as this obviously is considered more news worthy. A muslim committing an atrocity is far more sensational than millions of Muslims going about their business in a lawful fashion, now which of those do you think represents a more sensational story and is therefore considered more newsworthy?

It is a fact that cultural diversity can, and sometimes does, cause a variety of problems.

Integration is a slow process normally, and when immigrant cultures have what we would consider pernicious attitudes or behaviours then this can and does cause problems, and the law of the land should be used and formed to prevent and punish such behaviours. Bottom line is you can't have only success stories, as people are fallible and will make errors in judgement. It's about finding balance in your immigration policies that produce the best results. Do I really need to say that extreme views and ideas are least likely to provide that balance, whatever side of the political divide they derived from?

David Killens's picture
It is not a case of working

It is not a case of working or not working, nor anything close to a failure. These changes are tweaks to an overall immigration policy that is still practiced.

This is how a rational society works. Instead of throwing up their hands at the first sign of problems and killing everything in sight, the core problem has been addressed, and changes proposed.

Sheldon's picture
Exactly, it's not a failed

Exactly, it's not a failed policy, or a wrong policy, it's a policy that like all human ideas is fallible, and can always be improved.

Peurii's picture
Segregation is a big problem.

Segregation is a big problem. It breeds inter-ethnic prejudice. The government should try somehow to integrate immigrants into local communities. I think Europe should follow Singapore in that they force you to live in ethnically diverse neighborhoods, instead of willful segregation along ethnic lines. It's not liberal, it's not nice, but the dangers of shadow societies is much worse. 40% unemployment? That's insane.

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