How many Christians actually read the bible. The GOOD book is 1000 pages maybe I don't really know exactly. Not easy reading written 2000 years ago. I am not an expert but how many Christians read the bible.. I guess maybe 10%.. I don't really know. The TRUTH (the bible) is probably not even understood or comprehended by most Christians. Many times IT is not even "read" in church..
I am Jewish. At 13 boys read from the Torah. We learn our Hovtorah which is just a small part of the Torah. We study many weeks until we recite it by heart (almost). The peculiar thing the TORAH is in Hebrew. While I have learned to read letters in Hebrew. I have absolutely no idea what I am saying. 99% of the congregation also had NO idea what I was saying but they were smiling and were so proud of me. On Yom Kippur Jews go to synagogue. For most that's the only time in the year they go. The rabbi reads from the Torah (in Hebrew and 99% of the congregation have no idea what he is talking about.
I am just saying...
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*on an atheist forum*
Now, I'm no Sherlock Holmes, But...........
Try reading the content of the message instead of just the title.
Bible? Yes Torah? NO.
We do not get a hell of a lot of Jews on the site saying stupid shit about the Torah. Not that it could not happen. But when you are God"s chosen people and just worried about following his law/. is there really a reason to bother anyone else?
I understand too well fiat. What is expected is compliance and obedience. Critical thinking is not accepted. I see it all the time in all religions. You are not expected to think, just accept what you are told and smile.
David I appreciate your response. For some reason others in this forum ridicule my posts even if they are benign or not confrontational. Cognostic seemed to have some problems.. He is all over the place belittling or criticizing almost anyone's post at the same time making no sense with his own ideas. I hope we are more civil in our debate.
Cognostic's primary problem, in the threads you've been posting, is YOU. He doesn't have a problem with me and he doesn't have a problem with many of the people who frequent these forums. So ask yourself something:
Are you out of step or is everyone else out of step?
I'll even go so far as to explain to you what I think his problem with you is:
I believe one of his issues is with the way you "hit and run" post. You make a new topic, posit some thought or belief which may or may not make sense and then, when people ask questions, make comments, etc., you refuse to address those comments in a mature and rational way. You either duck them entirely or just respond by saying that the person is mean and has a problem with you.
Another thing you do is slam out unformatted, run-on, hard to read posts. If you checked your grammar, structure, punctuation, etc., and posted more sense, it would go a long way.
And the final thing I will point out, now, is that you have found your way to an ATHEIST website. On this ATHEIST website, you found an ATHEIST forum. On that ATHEIST forum, you sit and post apologetics and ask if people are reading their holy books. You do so, not to spark debate, but to spark controversy.
I believe these may be Cog's issues with you because they are MY issues with you and Cog seems to me to be a pretty level-headed guy. I could be completely wrong and it is not my intent to put words in his mouth but at the very least, you now know why I think you're getting crap from people.
May I ask how old you are?
EDIT: I also want to point out that you said to David:
David's response was, in no way, an attempt to debate you. He was agreeing with you. Do you actually know what a debate IS?
LOL + Fiat you would make a great wife; now we have moved from shit slinging aggression to passive aggression and pleas of help from others while playing the innocent victim.
@Terraphon - I just call it being dishonest.
Now days, the only time I may read the Bible, the Torah, the Qu'ran, or the Talmud is when I want to find a specific verse. Otherwise, I have no reason to read any of those already read many times over religious texts. I shall be the first to admit that I am most knowledgeable with the Bible. But I do have searchable versions of the texts.
rmfr
Fiat, I do care about you as a fellow human being. But I beseech you to be more careful with your posts.
Before you press the "post" button, go back and carefully read what you have entered. Then ask yourself if it passes muster, that it makes an adult and sane argument, that it does not rely on failed logic, and makes sense to us atheists.
For example, asking an atheist if he has read a holy book this day is just inane, senseless, provocative, and pointless. Please understand that we are immune from edicts from authority, that we will challenge and question anything and everything.
I sincerely wish you well fiat, but I hope you understand the pickle you have made of your reputation. But it can easily be recovered if you dialogue on an equal basis and make sane, respectful, and rational arguments.
I don't find the Bible to be difficult to comprehend at all. The difficult bit is re-interpreting what it says so that it means whatever Christians want it to say.
Example: The very second thing God said to man was a lie:
Genesis 2:16-17: "And the lord God commanded the man, 'You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it, you will certainly die.'"
Then they eat it and live hundreds of years after.
The interpretation? God didn't lie, he meant "die spiritually."
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@Kevin
I said this exact thing in another thread and agree with you completely. Well pointed out!
Apologists will argue that he didn't mean a literal death but, guess what...THAT'S WHAT HE SAID.
He said "you will certainly die"!. He didn't say "your spirit will be torn asunder" or "it'll totes fuck up your soul" or "I'll make the rest of your life a living hell", he said "you will certainly die". There's no other interpretation. If I tell someone "If you touch my pizza, you will die" and they touch my pizza and don't keel over dead I either LIED or didn't know what the hell I was talking about.
Neither of which are good things when the speaker is supposed to be omnipotent and omniscient.
@Terraphon, exactly! What boggles my mind is why a perfect being's book would need interpretation at all. I would think that he'd want it to be as clear as possible.
People are killing each other over this, but no one is willing to say "It's not an issue of interpretation, maybe it just wasn't well written...?"
@Kevin
This, exactly.
If I was to write a book, then submit it to a publisher along with an "interpretation" of the book that was like the interpretations of the bible, they'd wipe their ass with it and have security escort me out of the building.
Hell, if the bible never existed and someone wrote it today and submitted it to a publisher, they'd wipe their ass with it. Piss-poor writing.
Terraphon,
"Hell, if the bible never existed and someone wrote it today and submitted it to a publisher, they'd wipe their ass with it. Piss-poor writing."
I disagree. The Bible is a beautifully written piece of literature. Some versions flow better that other versions but the overall work is laid out very well. All of the stories are based on the verbiage in Exodus 34:10-28. The miracles are based on Exodus 34:10. The stories are based on the Ten Commandments found in Exodus 34:11-28. The purpose of the biblical stories is to teach complete obedience and total loyalty to the Boss. That is it.
The Jewish Babylonian Talmud, the Koran, the hadiths, and the Book of Mormon are excellent examples of piss-poor writing. The Bible is far superior to those as literature.
The big joke is that people overlook the parts where the writers plainly said that the stories were just bull shit. They repeat that several times in the complete Bible, not the Reader's Digest version that the Protestants use.
@Diotrephes
I'm referring, specifically, to the glaring contradictions and the fact that it sets out to show an omnipotent, omniscient god but the guy they describe is actually a dopey, bungling idiot who gets very little right.
Yes, a lot of the bible is interesting and filled with adventure and well worded but it completely fails to tell the story it wants to tell.
Terraphon,
"Yes, a lot of the bible is interesting and filled with adventure and well worded but it completely fails to tell the story it wants to tell."
IMO the Bible tells exactly the stories the writers wanted to tell. The stories teach complete obedience and total loyalty to the Boss. It is like a military code of conduct for civilians. When the Boss tells you to do something you are to immediately obey and get it done even if you don't have a clue as to how you will do it, like Noah and the ark.
The stories don't have to make logical sense because that is not their purpose. The purpose is to teach (indoctrinate, brainwash, force) people into complete obedience. Deviations from the rules are considered "sins", sometimes punished by physical death. The New Testament added spirtual death to the menu. It is Obey or Die.
BTW, the God characters of the Bible were simple the crazy men who ruled the ancient dominant Middle Eastern empires as emperors or the chief priests. They made the rules and did the killings.
As I've said before, the Bible was written in the 680s-690s, after the Koran. It gave the Christians an unified doctrine to counter the book that Uthman's committee had written. So when the Christrian priests preached to their troops they could tell them that their God approved of them engaging in total massacres. Of course it was total BS but it's been used that way for 1,330 years.
@Dio
And that's my point. They don't make logical sense and when taken as a whole, they make the entire book a substandard work of literature. I agree 100% that the bible does just what it's supposed to do. It indoctrinates. After the comment about it not making logical sense, though, a light bulb came on for me.
I don't think, for a second, that it's intentional BUT...The bible not making logical sense could be seen as a benefit to the continuation of the religion because it would tend to weed out the people who can use logic and more firmly grip those who can't. By doing so, it leaves no room for those who might "corrupt" or otherwise dissuade the believers.
Food for thought.
Final point: I read roughly 20 books per month, in a number of genres and ALL of them are better written than the bible, in my opinion. From there, the literary worth of the bible is most certainly a subject on which I am happy to agree to disagree.
@old man
Thanks for the heads up!
@ Terraphon
Just a heads up:
Dio is mostly a good guy but he has some very strange ideas about the origins of the modern bible.
Old man shouts ...,
"Dio is mostly a good guy but he has some very strange ideas about the origins of the modern bible."
IMO you would never make a good detective. Consider the evidence.
There is not one single legitimate copy of the Bible that was written before the 680s-690s. Sure, there are bits and pieces of ragged scrolls but they do not constitute the Bible.
Most people are completely ignorant about what the real Ten Commandments are. That should be basic knowledge but they believe the lie that the Ten Commandments are in Exodus chapter 20 or Deuteronomy chapter 5. So since they get that wrong how can they have any credibility as to when the fairy tale was written?
The English language is very complex and it is constantly evolving. You can fairly easily identify when something was written by the etymology of the words and grammar. I don't know anything about the Hebrew language but I can identify the various Greek alphabets. All of the Greek Bible passages I have seen have been written in the modern Greek alphabet. So they are simply recent translations from the original Latin or one of the English translations.
Based on the writing style of the Talmud if the Bible had been written by Jewish writers it would be unreadable. If someone did have a supposedly ancient Hebrew language Bible and was an honest expert in the language he could easily verify if the work was legitimate by doing etmology of the words and comparing the work to modern Bibles.
You are sharp about most things but on this issue I think you are not using your critical thinking skills and are too willing to believe the lie. But maybe you can do some in-depth research and present a logical case for why I am wrong.
@ Dio
We have had this discussion many times. But for the benefit of others:
Codex Siniaiticus
Codex Vaticanus
The English Bible (that you refer to) was commissioned as a present to the Pope. Three copies of the existing bible were indeed presented to the pope. It is a matter of record. Note the word copies, the copyists even referred to them as copies.
Where you fail in your case :
No mention of any committee rewriting/collating any texts
No records of individual texts being appropriated and copied for this endeavour you posit.
Existing Codex are known to have existed in multiple locations
No mention of the members of the committee anywhere
No commission from the Vatican
No requests, correspondence or edits suggested anywhere
In short no evidence at all for your hypothesis.
Much evidence against it.
Old man shouts ...,
"In short no evidence at all for your hypothesis.
Much evidence against it."
The Codex Siniaiticus is a hoax. The con man who "discovered" it admitted that he had forged it.
https://www.jesus-is-lord.com/sinaiticus.htm
One thing you will always notice about fakes. The images are always of poor quality which makes it difficult, but not impossible, to do a good extensive examination. http://www.codexsinaiticus.org/en/manuscript.aspx?book=1&chapter=22&lid=...
But one thing that is readily apparent when looking at the piss-poor images is that they are written in the modern Greek alphabet. http://www.ancientscripts.com/greek.html. That means that they were not written before the 15th Century or later.
If you bother to look closely you will also see that the Codex Vaticanus is also written in the modern Greek alphabet.
https://www.facsimilefinder.com/facsimiles/codex-vaticanus-b-facsimile#&...
Use your critical analytical skills and you can easily see that they are hoaxes.
@ Dio
You believe what you believe, the examiners and archeologists and historians at the 3 main institutions that ( British Museum, Hermitage and Berlin(?)) are examining the Codex S, and comparing to later versions, are entirely convinced of its authenticity.
I think I would take their consolidated opinion over yours. It is called scientific consensus, based on forensic examination.
Also I note, that at usual you have failed to meet the burden of evidence for your claim of an English committee of forgers...so let's just end the conversation shall we?
I cannot hope to convince you of reality, you want to believe your hypothesis. You are more like a theist than a rational examiner of facts. But that's ok.
We agree on many things Dio, however when you start your (what I consider inaccurate) recitations on these forums, especially to new members who are not aware of your peccadilloes, I will call you out if no one else does.
I would hope if I posted dingbat opinions, forum members would do the same for me.
Old man shouts ...,
"You believe what you believe, the examiners and archeologists and historians at the 3 main institutions that ( British Museum, Hermitage and Berlin(?)) are examining the Codex S, and comparing to later versions, are entirely convinced of its authenticity."
Are you incapable of identifying a manuscript that is written in the modern Greek alphabet? All you have to do is examine the damn things for yourself and you will see that they are not written in any of the ancient Greek alphabets. For some reason you have consistently refused to do that.
Did you even know what the real Ten Commandments are before I brought that issue up? Maybe you have been relying upon the BS that your favorite experts, con men, and movies have been feeding you all of your life instead of actually reading the fairy tale for yourself and understanding what it really says.
So it is really very simple. Pull up the piss poor quality images of your fake manuscripts and compare the letters to the various Greek alphabets. You can do that yourself at your convenience. You will then see that they are written in the modern Greek alphabet. That means that they are hoaxes and that your "experts" are full of shit and are selling lies.
Will you become sad and heart-broken when you discover that you have been lied to all of your life about your favorite Middle Eastern religious fairy tale?
The challenge is open to everyone. So dig in and start eating.
Dio: "There is not one single legitimate copy of the Bible." "Most people are completely ignorant about what the real Ten Commandments are. " UM.... My brain is screaming "Contradiction."
"All of the Greek Bible passages I have seen have been written in the modern Greek alphabet. " Further evidence for the fact that we have no idea at all what the "original 10 commandments, if there was ever such a thing, actually existed." It was probably a work that took generations to throw together which was, or course, changed, altered, copied, changed again, and altered again just like the rest of the bible.
It's probably just me, but I cringe when I hear "Original Anything" attributed to the Bible. I don't doubt there is an "Oldest version of the 10 commandments." Original? Can we really go there?
Cognostic,
"It's probably just me, but I cringe when I hear "Original Anything" attributed to the Bible. I don't doubt there is an "Oldest version of the 10 commandments." Original? Can we really go there?"
You are being silly. I am examining the fairy tale based upon what it says. It plainly says that the vebiage in Exodus 34:11-28 is the real Ten Commandments for the fairy tale. If you don't understand that then you are just being stupid. All of the biblical stories are based on the verbiage contained in Exodus 34:10-28.
When you read the story about King Arthur he had a sword named "Excalibur". He didn't ride a white stallion named "Silver". That is part of the Lone Ranger story. So don't get your fairy tales mixed up. Your continued refusal to understand the fairy tale is why you seldom make any meaningful comments about it. It is not necessary to believe in any of it but you need to be intellectually honest when discussing it. Otherwise it will be like having Santa Claus delivering gifts to the Greek gods on Mount Olympus using Noah's ark that was made out of fig leaves All of those elements are part of different fairy tales but you need to know which ones.
"You are being silly. I am examining the fairy tale based upon what it says."
My point exactly then...... "Nothing Original."
fiat,
"Did you READ your bible or Torah today
How many Christians actually read the bible. The GOOD book is 1000 pages maybe I don't really know exactly."
My New King James Version has 1,763 actual pages of the fairy tale with a 40 page Concordance as well as several maps. I read portions of the Bible every day.
Do you ever read the Talmud? If you read the Talmud do you believe that it is more applicable to you than the Bible is?
I am so sorry. When I said only 10 percent of christians read the bible I wasn't cslling Christians to read the bible and become
better Christians.. Just the opposite. I was explaining the fallacy of their beliefs when they only read 10 percent or less of the bible.. Most of you got it. If you didn't maybe I didn't express myself well.
fiat
From one Jew to another I have to question your claims and call out the assumptions. I don't think you can make claims that Christians read 10 percent of the bible without statistical surveys or that 99 percent of Jews do not know what they are listening to.
I have been in both churches and synagogues and although I would not know how many fit in your model, I would not make up a number.
"I am so sorry. When I said,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,I was explaining the fallacy of their beliefs when they only read 10 percent or less of the bible.."
Furthermore I was intrigued that you expanded on the fallacy of Christians beliefs but not on the Jewish faith in the Torah.
Is there a reason why?
This is the first post I have read from you and don't know you nor what your beliefs are other than what you mentioned in this OP.
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Re: In Spirit and Kenny(fiat)
Son of a-..... Well, fuck me silly running naked through a briar patch! Okay, I just gotta know! Which one of you has your hand up the other's ass? Or do you guys take turns being the puppet and the puppet master? Inquiring minds want to know....
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