do you guys believe is extraterrestrial creatures?

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Sky Pilot's picture
Jon the Catholic,

Jon the Catholic,

If you use any of their names in prayer you're worshiping them.

jonthecatholic's picture
Well, not really. Initially,

Well, not really. Initially, the word pray was used to ask for a request. Shakespeare uses this a lot when his characters would ask another for a request.

In fact, when we're praying to the saints, we're simply asking them for a favor where we're asking for them to pray for us. It's just the same as when we ask other people in our Church to pray for us. Essentially, everything still goes to the one God.

Nyarlathotep's picture
Joke: So while Michelangelo

Joke: So while Michelangelo is painting the ceiling of the chapel he is lying on his back on top of the scaffolding. He peeks over the edge and sees a woman praying below and decides to play a joke on her. In his best booming voice he says "this is Jesus how can I answer your prayers?" The woman replies, "shut up child, I was speaking to your mom"!
-------------------------------
And I know Catholics who have special statues of the virgin Mary that they have specially "blessed". They put offering on it. They kneel before it, and pray to it.

jonthecatholic's picture
You can tell me all day what

You can tell me all day what I believe but all Catholics know they aren't worshipping Mary. If they did, they'd be gravely mistaken. I'll refer you to one of the most well known prayers in the Catholic Church, the Hail Mary. In the second part, we pray:

"Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death."

Does that look like worship? Or does that look like a Christian asking another one for her prayers. On the offering they put up, I generally don't subscribe to this personally. That offering would've served a greater purpose elsewhere but if they did this out of love for Mary because her prayers have helped them out in their past, I don't see anything wrong with what they're doing.

Nyarlathotep's picture
when we're praying to the

Jon the Catholic - when we're praying to the saints

...they aren't worshipping Mary

  • dictionary.com: prayer - 1) a devout petition to God or an object of worship.
  • Merriam-Webster: prayer - 1a) an address (such as a petition) to God or a god in word or thought
  • Oxford: prayer - 1) A solemn request for help or expression of thanks addressed to God or another deity
  • Cambridge: prayer: 1) the act or ceremony of speaking to God or a god,...
  • Wikipedia: prayer: is an invocation or act that seeks to activate a rapport with an object of worship through deliberate communication.

Let me be blunt. I have family members who are Catholic who openly worship the Virgin Mary; funny how you said they don't. 8aa9ef2a1caffc3140e6d121d000fadd

jonthecatholic's picture
Are you saying that they say

Are you saying that they say categorically that they are in fact worshiping Mary or is it your interpretation of their actions that you say this? I highly doubt they're openly worshiping her as no Catholic Church teaching say that Mary is a god. If you say they pray to Mary, that I can believe. That's something I do as well. But it's always geared towards asking her to bring us closer to her son.

Again, when Catholics pray to the saints and Mary, we're simply making a request, asking them to pray for us here on earth. I see you're using dictionary definitions to disprove my point but I notice you're only using the definitions that fit your definition. There are numerous other meanings of prayer which simply mean, to ask a favor. It might be helpful to check out the second or third meaning of those words, as well as thesaurus definitions.

Nyarlathotep's picture
Jon the Catholic - Are you

Jon the Catholic - Are you saying that they say categorically that they are in fact worshiping Mary

Yes, that is what I'm saying. They believe she has the power to bestow supernatural effects to those who pray/make offerings to her. They believe the image/statue of her wards off evil spirits. They believe she is/was sinless. They believe she has the power to forgive transgressions. They believe she can heal injuries. They believe that if her image gets damaged that the house is cursed.

To reiterate what Algebe said below: if this isn't worship; could you tell us what they would have to do to make it worship (what they are missing that would make it worship)?

algebe's picture
What about all the Marian

What about all the Marian apparitions? People seem to be worshipping and praying to Mary in places like Fatima, Lourdes, and Akita. People go to Lourdes specifically to ask Mary to heal them, and the Catholic church condones and encourages that behavior. As a non-believer, I find it hard to distinguish between prayer and veneration in those situations.

What's the difference between a god, such as Mercury, Pan, Venus, Mars, etc., and an angel, such as Michael, Gabriel, and Lucifer? They all seem to have immortality and superpowers.

jonthecatholic's picture
I've never heard of people

I've never heard of people asking Mary to heal them. She doesn't have that power. What she is, though is a very powerful intercessor. She prays on behalf of the people on Earth. The act of going to these places as a sort of pilgrimage shows how much faith you have that Mary's prayer on your behalf will not be left unheeded and this faith may lead to God answering your prayer.

"What's the difference between a god, such as Mercury, Pan, Venus, Mars, etc., and an angel, such as Michael, Gabriel, and Lucifer? They all seem to have immortality and superpowers."

You're mixing different religions in one bowl here. I'll answer only on the ones which the RCC recognizes: angel, Michael, Gabriel and Lucifer. The main difference between God and the angels and Satan is that God doesn't have a beginning nor an end. He is infinite is power, wisdom, knowledge, etc. He can see all of time in one instant. The angels are created by God and as such are not infinite like him. They have more wisdom and power than humans but are not on the same level; far from it. Lucifer was an angel who thought himself on the same level as God and rebelled against Him.

A nice analogy you could use would be the set of all numbers; think the number line. No start, no end. The angels could be likened to the set of all integers. Infinite, yes. But definitely not on the same level as the number line. Humans are like the individual numbers. Some are rational. Some, irrational. (sorry, I couldn't resist the math joke.)

Sky Pilot's picture
Jon the Catholic,

Jon the Catholic,

From a biblical perspective intelligent space aliens invalidates the Bible unless they are classified as angels or demons. Remember, according to the biblical ethnocentric Middle Eastern religious fairy tale the Jews are Yahweh' favorite chosen people and he will spend eternity with them in a gaudy bejeweled golden cube called New Jerusalem. There might be a problem getting trillions of space alien souls to believe in that specific fairy tale.

jonthecatholic's picture
Well, not really. It's quite

Well, not really. It's quite possible that if intelligent life exists on another planet, that God has another plan for them, which we can't say at all.

Sky Pilot's picture
Jon the Catholic,

Jon the Catholic,

Per the biblical fairy tale the only plan Yahweh = the God of the Hebrews and the God of the armies = would have for space aliens would be as demons because they wouldn't be allowed into the golden cube called New Jerusalem because that's where he will spend eternity with his chosen people, the twelve tribes of Israel.

jonthecatholic's picture
It seems to me you're holding

It seems to me you're holding me to follow what the Bible says according to your interpretation. All I'm saying is that the church wouldn't discount the idea that aliens could exist. And if they were intelligent, God may have arranged a different plan for them. We just don't know.

I think it'd be good for you to know the church's teaching on salvation and how it's possible for someone to enter heaven even if they've never heard of Jesus.

LogicFTW's picture
Did god create them in "his

Did god create them in "his image" too?

jonthecatholic's picture
I wouldn't know. :)

I wouldn't know. :)

Lemna Minor's picture
Life of some sorts - some

Life of some sorts - some organic stuff - why not, I do find that possible. Evolved live - multi cellular, or plants, even animals? May be, but it is not unlikely not to exist in abundance, or not at all. As far as I understand, for that to happen a vast amount of conditions need to get just right - and that is only chance, plus, even in the right conditions, a second planet earth, with a similar sun, and all that, it is just so much more likely NOT to happen, that I wouldn't be too disappointed or chagrined when I can never have a marsian pen-pal, after all..

LogicFTW's picture
See my post above, even if

See my post above, even if only 1 in a trillion stars has a planet that can support life, that still leaves 1 trillion planets that can support life. That is how many, (theorized,) stars their are out there, a trillion trillions.

I think it is actually very likely there is other intelligent life out there, right now, just due to the pure numbers of it.

However I think it is extremely unlikely we will ever meet them in person. A space alien invasion is one of the last things I ever worry about due to such incredibly remote odds, makes for fun sci fi movies though.

If we humans make an amazing advancement on communication that can greatly exceed the speed of light, (the current known speed limit of the universe.) Like being able to fold space/time or perhaps communicating with antimatter or something we do not yet understand that can greatly exceed the speed of light speed limit, we may be able to find and communicate with other, as advanced, or more advanced intelligent life. Otherwise the distances and time gulfs are simply too vast.

I actually feel SETI is a waste of money. However, work to find basic evidence of life in our solar system could be well worth it, just to help us further understand our own solar system and maybe convert a theist or 2 to atheist.

Sky Pilot's picture
LogicForTW,

LogicForTW,

The question is what kind of life forms could live on planets with 2x -6x times our gravity with very dense atmospheres of weird gas compositions?

We know that in our solar system our gravity limits the size of such things as mountains. On Mars, whose gravity is less, mountains can be a lot taller than the ones of Earth. So on heavy gravity planets chances are any life forms would be much smaller than ours in comparison. That might reduce the probability of finding comparable life forms to ours.

LogicFTW's picture
I know life exists at sea

I know life exists at sea vents at the bottom of the ocean on earth, actually, quite a bit of life, dealing with enormous pressures, and no direct sunlight. Pretty amazing the conditions life can evolve at.

But yes, comparable life forms? That reduces the odds quite a bit.

Sky Pilot's picture
Of course there are billions

Of course there are billions of alien life forms throughout the universe. But it's irrelevant because the distances between them is so great there's no feasible way for them to interact with each other. And since distance equals time we will never see any life forms other than what might exist in our own solar system.

The Milky Way is about 100,000 light years in diameter. Suppose there's a planet on the other side with intelligent life but the planet has 2 times Earth's gravity with a different atmosphere. At the speed of light it would take 100,000 years to get there. Then throw in another 100,000 years to get back. Think about where humanity was 100,000 years ago and 200,000 years ago. Your space ship would have to be the most perfect thing ever created to last 200,000 years at light speed through interstellar space, avoiding all of the hazards and keeping the crew alive. So what would the world be like in the 200,000 years since you left it? And how would you find the other world with intelligent life on the way out when you have no idea it exists in the first place? And where would your world be in 200,000 years? You would need a super fantastic navigation computer. And what kind of fuel and how much would you need to last 200,000 years for your round trip?

You can shorten the distance to reduce time but it's still the same basic problem. Space travel isn't like sailing around the world on a sail boat. It's a whole new ball game.

Nyarlathotep's picture
Yeah the size of the galaxy

Yeah the size of the galaxy/universe, combined with the speed of light, and the lifespan of lifeforms; makes for a pretty cruel joke.

Sky Pilot's picture
Nyarlathotep,

Nyarlathotep,

The idea of space travel makes for some good movies but there's simply no way it's realistic. The distances are too great and you need to know what's on the other end before you go, if you could go.

LogicFTW's picture
If humans reclassify their

If humans reclassify their definitions of "alive" and technology allows us to download our memories and thought patterns into a computer, and within that realm we can completely change our perception of time, such space travel could be possible. We would just make a copy of ourselves on a hard drive on a computer, put it in a spaceship and send it to all possible locations we found in our own galaxy that might have intelligent life based on observation. We simply power down the "hard drive" that contains "us" only to turn it back on when we arrive at the destinations. We can live out our lives, here on earth, while sending our selves on a 200k year round trip, and then bring the copy of ourselves back into ourselves 200k years later.

It is a bit like video conferencing someone on the other side of the planet, we are not "there" but we can communicate well. As our science advances, it is easy to imagine upgrading to VR/AR where we are even more "there" on the other side of the planet w/o actually being there. I feel it is only a matter of time before VR communication arrives to the point that not just video and audio information is passed back and forth at 100's of thousands of miles per hour, but other sensory information such as smell, feel, taste. We made the leap from just voice, to video conferencing pretty quick, how long before the rest?

algebe's picture
The universe isn't just deep

The universe isn't just deep in distance. There's also a vast abyss of time. Our planet has had intelligent life for maybe 200,000 years, civilization for about 6,000 years, and modern technology for about 200 years. Those are mere instants in the history of the universe. The odds of another technological civilization existing at the same time as us are pretty small, especially if technology leads inevitably to bigger and better weapons, as it has here.

But that's no reason to stop looking. The discovery of an alien species that has survived and prospered with technology would be tremendously inspiring for us.

Sky Pilot's picture
Space aliens would probably

Space aliens would probably eat us.

algebe's picture
@Diotrephes: "Space aliens

@Diotrephes: "Space aliens would probably eat us."

Nah. The Martians tried that in "War of the Worlds. They caught some terrible disease from humans and died horribly.

Lee Wallace's picture
1. We know life exists.

1. We know life exists.
2. We know there are earth like planets.

So yes I think given the size of the cosmos that there could well be extraterrestrial life. Though its highly questionable if that will be intelligent life simpler to humans of the other primates et al. Or just single cell organism.

But yes I think there could be extraterrestrial life.

curious's picture
I think for me - is there ET

I think for me - is there ET life that have visited earth or earth origin, or that are capable to reach earth. I am sure there are kind of life somewhere, but I am sure there was some kind of communication in the past.

One of the Egyptian builder designed and created Obelisk of more than 32 meters tall and 455 tons in weight. Please use your primitive hammer and primitive chisels and, shape that granite.

Oh before I forget. Don't forget the primitive ropes to stand it up, you can't just leave it there lie down. This exercise will make you atheist slightly fitter.

"no one knows how they were raised; modern day efforts to replicate the raising of an obelisk, using ancient Egyptian technology, have failed."

algebe's picture
Zwalja:

Zwalja:

Are you saying that ancient monuments are the work of ETs? I think that's a bit insulting to our ancestors. They might not have had modern machinery, but they had intelligence, good engineering skills, lots of labor, and minimal safety regulations. An obelisk can be raised by laying it in position and then digging out the soil under the base end. Once the hole is deep enough, you remove the supports and allow it to tip forward. Ropes and pulleys can be used to steady and control the movement.

A 21-meter Egyptian obelisk weighing over 200 tons was transported to London and erected in 1878. It's called Cleopatra's Needle. No ETs or gods were involved in the project.

Sky Pilot's picture
zwalja,

zwalja,

Yeshua said that if a person had faith and didn't doubt that he could command a mountain to jump into the sea and that it would obey. So maybe one of the ancient Egyptians simply had faith and moved the obelisk simply by commanding it to stand upright in the chosen location.

It would indeed be very difficult to erect such a heavy long stone object without breaking it. There must be some sort of tool marks still on it that will give a clue as to how they did it. They would have had to stop its momentum once it reached 90 degrees and that would have been very difficult to do.

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