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6 pages... maybe because we want him stand to reason? Or are we just some jerks, making fun with theists/deists that come here?
I think this thread will go like a war of attrition.
Dan,
"So time having a start, that means it was created. That seems to bring God into the picture?"
Do you really believe that Yahweh, the God of the Hebrews and the God of the armies, created the universe?
We don't know how large the universe is but it is estimated that there is over 200 billion galaxies in the observable universe. To put that into a measurable area suppose each galaxy occupied 1 cubic foot of space. 200 billion cubic feet would be a sphere of about 7 miles in diameter. Now imagine our galaxy is just 1 cubic foot of space in a sphere that is over 7 miles in diameter. Now focus down to our tiny planet in that 1 cubic foot and then down to a speck of dirt on that tiny planet that comprises the Middle East and Israel.
Now according to the fairy tale Yahweh is only concerned with the people on that tiny speck of land in a sphere that is over 7 miles in diameter and he will spend eternity with them while ignoring everything that might exist in the 7 mile diameter sphere.
That idea might have made sense to ignorant people thousands of years ago but don't you think that you are more intelligent than they were? So if you are in fact more intelligent why would you continue to believe in silly fairy tales from thousands of years ago? It is time to start using your brain.
Im a deist:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism
A deist who still can demonstrate no objective evidence for his belief. After 6 pages of repeating the same unevidenced claims.
And can still not provide a causal link to a 'God'...
Utter bollocks.
Its simple: God has always existed timelessly. Not created, he just IS. And he created time and the universe.
Your use of abusive language its symptomatic of you not being able to find a coherent counter argument.
"Its simple: God has always existed timelessly. Not created, he just IS. And he created time and the universe."
I don't believe you, prove it.
"Your use of abusive language its symptomatic of you not being able to find a coherent counter argument."
No, it's symptomatic of your "argument" being unevidenced vapid verbiage, that needs no counter argument. Your claim also shows unequivocally that you're using argumentum ad ignorantiam fallacy again, and don't realise it, again.
Well something created time thats for sure and it was intelligent; so I will call it God. Time has a start so it must be created. Pretty strong evidence for God to add to the already string evidence we had. If you recall, I've already showed a 97% chance for such a God existing here:
http://www.atheistrepublic.com/forums/debate-room/does-everything-have-s...
@ Dan
Nope, Having read the threads it seems all you have done is shared your opinion. "Well something created time that's for sure and it was intelligent"
You have 'proved' nothing and evidenced nothing except your confidence in your own cleverness.
If you recall, I've already showed a 97% chance for such a God existing here:"
No, you have not. Word soup does not a convincing argument make.
Demonstrate without equivocation and in practical terms your evidence for a "creator god, (or god or any gods)" existence.
If you can't, lump yourself with us all...in the "we don't know ...yet" basket.
Did you not read this:
http://www.atheistrepublic.com/forums/debate-room/does-everything-have-s...
???
@ Dan
"Did you not read this:"
Yes I did. Utterly flawed. In the words of the immortal. "its utter bollocks"
If I need instruction in logic from a 10 year old I will ask one. You have supplied nothing.
I see logic has failed you and you are reduced to crude insults...
"Well something created time thats for sure"
I don't believe you, prove it please.
---------------------------------------------
"Time has a start "
How can something have a start when no time exists?
You have not shown any evidence for a deity, though you seem to be gleefully clapping yourself on the back over the specious verbiage you have posted, who can know why.
Is a nebula accretion intelligent?
- Evidence your claim that your god is timeless.
- Prove that your god was not created.
- Prove that it even exists.
- How do you know he is a he? Why not a she? Why not a wolf? Why not a pot plant?
- Prove it created time and the universe.
But most of all, SHOW A SODDING CAUSAL LINK!!!
Your 'argument' is simply a stonewall argument from ignorance fallacy.
You haven't showed your work to dismiss any more logical explanation and fallen upon your own conformational bias to automatically go to 'therefore God'.
Oh calm down, as Sheldon said you are simply deflecting from the argument because I called you argument, bollocks.
Evidence your claim that your god is timeless.
- Everything has a start, including time. So time was created by God. So God is timeless
Prove that your god was not created.
- Something can't come from nothing, so God must have always existed. Timeless things just ARE, they are not created
Prove that it even exists.
- 97% certain; see http://www.atheistrepublic.com/forums/debate-room/does-everything-have-s...
How do you know he is a he? Why not a she? Why not a wolf? Why not a pot plant?
- God has no sex, he was not the product of bisexual reproduction. Its just conventional to call God 'him'.
Prove it created time and the universe.
- Someone did and that someone is God by my definition (of God as the creator)
So you can't show evidence to back your claim, you can't prove any of your claims either and resort to god of the gaps fallacy and your own personal incredulity... and still will not demonstrate a causal link.
Well done.
Let's try one final time...
Can you demonstrate the causal links?
And, is a nebula accretion intelligent?
Dan, you wrote, “ Its just conventional to call God 'him'.”
Tell us all what the root of that convention is.
So, then what did God create the universe from?
"God" is not the answer to this question. I'm not asking *who*, I'm asking from *what*. If he used other stuff, where did that stuff come from? Or did it just "always exist"? If he just "spoke it" into existence, then something can come from nothing.
There seem to be two scenarios:
- God and stuff existed initially (IE timelessly). In which case we are made out of stuff probably
- Only God existed. In which case we are probably made from God (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantheism)
Something from nothing is not possible, even with God's help.
When I was a Chrisitan I would have disagreed with that statement. I believe (believed) God was completely omnipotent. He could have, literally, created something from nothing by the very fact that he was God.
I'm not a Christian; I think that God is material and has to play by material and common sense rules. I don't think God is Omnipotent or Omniscient.
So for you, God isn't the typical Abrahamic, Judeo-Christian god?
Would it be more like, if I were sitting at my computer playing the Sims, or something like that. I can create, destroy, and do lots of stuff to the game world and the characters, but I can't do anything that the software or hardware won't let me do.
I'm a Deist:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism
Its helpful to refer to the top level of reality as Base Reality, then the top level God is Base Reality God. Then each simulation (there maybe many nested simulations) has its own Demiurge-like figure (could be like a player of The Sims).
The followers of these religions would say that this "god" is too small for them... because they want everlasting life, so if god is constrained by physical laws they can't have it (unless everlasting life is permitted by "Reality" of course).
A Deist God could give everlasting life. If you think about the topology of the universe in 4d space-time terms then it is finite and will have a definite shape. Maybe it is a hypercube? It could though be a hypertorus, IE with time running around the ring, IE we would all live identical lives again and again.
So everlasting life depends on the topology of the universe which depends on the nature of the creator of the Universe.
Honestly, i don't know much about hypercube and hypertorus. Repeating your life again and again is not really everlasting. Topology of the universe is determined by its content, it is general relativity, no need for a creator. You are using a leap of faith.
This just gets better and better...
Well it gets funnier and funnier anyway.
It's simply unevidenced wish-thinking, he wants to live forever because he thinks this is better than a finite life so he has created this risible fantasy. The problem of course is he is trying to convince us it's real, and it's just the usual cliched apologetics we've seen countless times before.
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