"Free will"

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Tin-Man's picture
@Sheldon Re: "2) Do

@Sheldon Re: "2) Do nothing at all because it would be wrong to interfere with the free will of the rapist?"

OR... Would it interfere with God's perfect plan? It could be that God wanted that child raped for his own divine (and mysterious) purpose. Certainly wouldn't want to fuck that up for him.

Tin-Man's picture
After all, it would seem

After all, it would seem there are some folks on here that require having a child raped and/or brutally killed every now and then to be able to fully appreciate the good things in their lives.

Sapporo's picture
If we genuinely had free will

If we genuinely had free will, we would be able to act contrary to the laws of thermodynamics.

mickron88's picture
"It`s still not to late for

"It`s still not to late for you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

late for what?
hahahah.you're really a true theist

you want to worship a god who loves to torture and watches while tragedy, illness, and crime happens (rape,murder)?
i can imagine god sits in his comfy couch with popcorn on his lap...
then god calls for jesus, "come jesus, sit beside me!"

ʝօɦռ 6IX ɮʀɛɛʐʏ's picture
If free will is lost, then

If free will is lost, then all other mental faculties become compromised. Reason, which many atheists love to cling to, becomes a delusion. Morality, even in its subjective form, becomes an illusion. Nothing you do, and nothing you think can be trusted. Sitting there, asking for evidence ad nauseum becomes an exercise in futility. Determinism fails most clearly in practice. Science tends to progress more or less by looking at the usefulness of its fruits: can an idea predict, can it explain, can it make sense of reality? And although the physical sciences proceed on a presumption of determinism. Determinism makes no sense of reality on every other front. It requires one to pretend to be deluded, despite everything in your experience telling you that you're not. Determinism is a failed philosophy.

Free will does not mean freedom to choose what choices you get nor what situation you're in. It means freedom to chose between the choices you are given. Saying you don't have free will because you don't get to be a unicorn is nonsensical. Saying you don't have free will because of death and disaster is nonsensical. The only time free will is ever compromised is in the face of mental and neurological disorders.

The brain automating many functions does not affect free will either. You can see this most clearly in a reflex arc. You touch a hot plate, that information goes up the arm, stops at the spinal cord, then the spinal cord issues the command to retract. All of this is immediate, it occurs subconsciously without the aid of the brain. However, you can still make a free and conscious decision not to drop the hot plate. The brain sends signals to the spinal cord, which override the reflex. Certainly, your body will do all things possible to get you to drop the plate, you'll feel the stress, feel the pain, but you have the final say. A clear example are the Buddhist monks of Vietnam.

Free will occurs first and foremost as autonomy over the body you are given. You control its movements and its thoughts. As a result of this, free will then extends into your environment. You decide how you behave in the world, whether you go left of right at an intersection.

When it comes to neuroscience, the famous catchphrase should never be forgotten: Correlation is not causation. Take depression for example. You can take an fMRI of the brain and see the difference between a healthy brain and a depressed brain. But that information doesn't tell you what is causing it. Are changes in the brain causing the depression, or is the depression causing changes in the brain. In the absence of a clear biological marker, there is no way to distinguish between the two.

mykcob4's picture

1) There is ONLY subjective morality and no other kind.
2) Free will exists without and in spite of any god!

Your post is nothing more than word salad and nonsense!

ʝօɦռ 6IX ɮʀɛɛʐʏ's picture
" Free will exists..."

" Free will exists..."

That's all I need you to agree upon. I rest my case.

Sheldon's picture
And no hokum superstitious

And no hokum superstitious mumbo jumbo is required to explain it, or define it. We have some autonomy, this of course is limited by circumstance, including our evolved physiology, if you want to call that free will fine. It's not really though.

Sheldon's picture
Agreed, nothing supernatural

Agreed, nothing supernatural is needed to explain human morality, and nothing supernatural is needed to explain human "free will" such as it is. Occam's razor sorts this one, and sends his verbiage where it belongs, in the bin.

ʝօɦռ 6IX ɮʀɛɛʐʏ's picture
Straw God Fallacy. You can't

Straw God Fallacy. You can't use Occam's Razor on an explanation that hasn't been proposed. Try again.

Sheldon's picture
I don't recognise your

I don't recognise your moronic premise, as you are a theist on an atheist website preaching to atheists, so every thing you do is motivated by your religious beliefs, and you can demonstrate no objective evidence for them. Adding supernatural claims to anything gets Occam's razor until someone can demonstrate objective evidence for something supernatural.

Try again.

ʝօɦռ 6IX ɮʀɛɛʐʏ's picture
Straw God Fallacy. No

Straw God Fallacy. No supernatural claims where made.

Sheldon's picture
You're a theist, we all know

You're a theist, we all know your motives for your absurd claims (on an atheist forum), from denying scientific facts to making bigoted claims about transsexuals are derived entirely from your superstitious beliefs in supernatural mumbo jumbo.

Try again

ʝօɦռ 6IX ɮʀɛɛʐʏ's picture
Straw God Fallacy

Straw God Fallacy

Sheldon's picture
2. No spamming

2. No spamming

All of your claims are motivated by your superstitious beliefs in the supernatural, that's axiomatic, no matter how many times you spam your dishonest mantra.

ʝօɦռ 6IX ɮʀɛɛʐʏ's picture
Straw God Fallacy: Its safer

Straw God Fallacy: Its safer to attack the claims a theist hasn't made, than engage those he has.

Sheldon's picture
Mendacious twaddle, you

Mendacious twaddle, you ignore relentlessly all expansive refutations of your superstitious hokum, now after relentlessly and dishonestly ignoring all replies you don't like, you're crying foul that your superstitious motives are being questioned.

It's the boy who cried wolf...

ʝօɦռ 6IX ɮʀɛɛʐʏ's picture
I ignore the Straw God

I ignore the Straw God Fallacy wherever I identify it. If you feel like I've misidentified and ignored a direct rebuttal to any of my statements. Paste it below and preface it with an explanation on it's validity. I'll gladly respond.

Sheldon's picture
I still don't accept your

I still don't accept your premise, as I know you're being dishonest about your motives. You have relentlessly ignored my posts, and if you want a second chance go read them, and give a candid response, I'm not doing the legwork for you when you didn't have the integrity or common courtesy to answer the first time around.

ʝօɦռ 6IX ɮʀɛɛʐʏ's picture
Great. I won't waste your

Great. I won't waste your time, and likewise don't waste mine.

Sheldon's picture
You're a slow learner I know,

You're a slow learner I know, so I'll reiterate for you, you don't get to tell me how I spend my time on here. You may do whatever you wish, you have been so dishonest in your posts I really don't care, there are consequences to your relentless dishonesty even if you don't understand. Though I see you now acknowledge that you have no interest in taking this opportunity to show some integrity and do everyone the courtesy of answering their posts when they have taken the time to give a candid and expansive response to your posts.

mickron88's picture

john be like: SOOORRRRYYYY I CAN'T HERE YOU..........LA LA LA LA LA!!!!!!


Attach Image/Video?: 

Sapporo's picture
When you say "If free will is

When you say "If free will is lost, then all other mental faculties become compromised. Reason, which many atheists love to cling to, becomes a delusion", it is safe to conclude that you believe free will comes from the supernatural.

ʝօɦռ 6IX ɮʀɛɛʐʏ's picture
There's a difference between

There's a difference between being Christian, and making Christian arguments.

Sushisnake's picture
Free will is circumscribed.

@ John 6IX

Free will is circumscribed. At any given moment, our free will choices are limited to the options available to us. Our choices are confined by our circumstances. That's why an enormous act of will won't make me as rich as Croseus anymore than decades of hard work caring for the aged and disabled has. Free will is like a walk in a garden: you can choose the garden path you walk on, but you can't choose the garden itself. It's a given. My given is I choose to care for the aged and disabled and it's poorly paid work. If free will really did have the power and might Christians ascribe to it, all of us who will the world to be an equal, just and equitable place would have made it so long before Christianity even existed, because we are the majority.

Sheldon's picture
"Reason, which many atheists

Wheezy "Reason, which many atheists love to cling to,"

How telling that sentence is, almost as you're implying that clinging to reason is somehow a bad thing. You're doing a bang up job of not clinging to it anyway.

CyberLN's picture
I’m not convinced free will

I’m not convinced free will exists in reality. Whether it does or does not is not known for sure yet. However, I behave like it does and that’s enough for me right now.

Sheldon's picture
Im inclined to agree, and I

I'm inclined to agree, and I like the the Hitch's answer on this one. When a loud, brash and arrogant religious apologists kept shouting at him "did he believe he had free will?" He answered, "Yes ok I have free will, in fact you could say I have no choice but to have it". We have a certain amount of autonomy governed by circumstance, and there is no need to add any supernatural mumbo jumbo in order to accept or explain this.

Armando Perez's picture
I think free will exists to a

I think free will exists to a point limited by the laws of nature and your circumstances. I can like white trousers but choose to buy brown ones because the white ones will get to dirty too soon in my job. If I am willing and able to wash them twice a day I can opt for the whites. It wholly depends on me. Of course, if you start to nitpick then you can arrive at a chain of facts and happenings that made you take our decision and then say it was not your free-will but an illusion of free will because it was biologically determined. (You are genetically lazy, or your upraising made you a useless home-maker). It is very tricky. From the point of view of the daily life of the individual and the society, as many times we cannot forecast what other people would do, or even what we will do under a set of circumstances, there is free-will, in the sense that there is uncertainty about the decisions.

However, that free-will exists or not does not necessarily imply there is a God or not in my opinion if you approach it from the previous point of view of causality. God could be not all-knowing or all-powerful.

What is illogical is to have an all knowing, all powerful being (a God) that has a plan for Humankind and the existence of free-will. If there is a plan, and he is all-knowing, then he knows what everybody is going to do for the plan to work. If he does not, then he is not all-knowing or all-powerful. Free-will, under the assumption of that kind of God, is just an illusion God gives to men because he knows the decisions that will be taken beforehand. On that line, it is all a bad joke because he knows who will end up in Hell even before they are born and who will join him in Paradise. All your actions are pre-determined by the master plan.

Tricky thing.

cnr5134's picture

God exists outside of time and therefore knows everything that has happened and will happen. People have free will and God is aware of your choices but he only steps in if you choose to let him work in your life. He gave us free will and therefore does not interfere if not asked to interfere. God wants us to know him and you cannot truly know God unless you accept him into your life.


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