A full Proof for God's existence
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"assertion that religions provide objective morals."
I only said that you can't have objective morals without God, regardless of religions.. but you started arguing against this secondary claim.. I am willing to take back this claim (for the sake of argument) ... you still haven't shown any real counterargument to the main proof. So literally all you have typed thus far is useless ..
"Since you appear too lazy to even scroll down the Wikipedia page"
Says the one who was offended by the word Lazy, irony.
"In other words he's defining what he thinks is necessary in such a way as to match attributes he assigns his own deity. This strikes me as special pleading and begging the question fallacies. Here is the rest..."
That's a wrong interpretation, it means that the argument is structured in a way that makes it easy to counter. you can accept that one argument is true while trying to counter the other.. That means that this is criticism of the structure of the argument rather than the argument itself...it doesn't mean that it is fallacious as you seem to think.
"This makes each of the arguments subject to separate assessments."
Exactly, thats why I think it is logical, it doesn't assume that the necessary being is God, it presents additional arguments to support the claim.
" Such a critic might reject Avicenna's conception of contingency, a starting point in the original proof, by saying that the universe could just happen to exist without being necessary or contingent on an external cause"
Of course such a critic would have to provide another logical system to support his claim(other than contingent /necessary) , if he can't, then he is just abandoning logic.. and if he abandons logic, well.. I guess no one can help him.
I don't know why you linked the ontological argument though, this is not the ontological argument.
Nor can they exist WITH a god.
rmfr
"you still haven't shown any real counterargument to the main proof"
Yes I have, they're included in the article you linked in the OP, did you not actually read it?
" I am willing to take back this claim (for religious objective morality)"
Now that it's been thoroughly refuted you mean.
""Since you appear too lazy to even scroll down the Wikipedia page"
Says the one who was offended by the word Lazy, irony."
I never claimed to be offended, I stated in fact that I was not bothered, and yes it is ironic that you accused me of being lazy for not researching your claim, though you clearly never read past the argument you linked to the section entitled "criticisms".
"In other words he's defining what he thinks is necessary in such a way as to match attributes he assigns his own deity. This strikes me as special pleading and begging the question fallacies."
"That's a wrong interpretation,"
No it isn't, as it is precisely what he has done.
"That means that this is criticism of the structure of the argument rather than the argument itself."
The criticisms were of both the structure of the argument and it's conclusions. You asked and they were already in the article you linked.
"Another type of criticism might attack the proof of the necessary existent itself. Such a critic might reject Avicenna's conception of contingency, a starting point in the original proof, by saying that the universe could just happen to exist without being necessary or contingent on an external cause.""
That's an argument from ignorance fallacy, the lack of an alternative argument doesn't in any way validate the argument you linked. The universe exists, that''s axiomatic, natural phenomena exist and this is again axiomatic, if you are going to cite arguments that add supernatural causes then the burden of proof is entirely yours. You have offered no evidence thus far.
"I don't know why you linked the ontological argument though, this is not the ontological argument."
Again read the page you linked " There is no consensus among modern scholars on the classification of the argument; some say that it is ontological while others say it is cosmological." Ontological arguments deal with the branch of metaphysics dealing with the nature of being. I'd say it qualifies as an ontological argument, though it also could be classed as a cosmological argument.
Either way it fails for the reasons already stated. primarily he's attempting to define a deity into existence. Though also because there is no credible evidence that the universe needs a cause, or that that cause must be a deity if it could be evidenced.
@ avicenna
"Hints are for people with brains to think... Lazy people want everything without making minimum effort."
Your deity (which I do not believe exists) created everything, including man and man's capacity to worship? Yet this deity is the greatest in hide and seek. So if this deity created these conditions, are you comfortable with knowing it exists, yet not having to worship this deity?
Why would any deity create a man capable of worship yet go to so much effort hiding? Common sense indicates that this deity would definitely make everyone (100% of all mankind) aware of it's existence. If not, why? And why the hide and seek?
"Why would any deity create a man capable of worship yet go to so much effort hiding?"
God is not hiding, he is so bright you cant see him :D
"he is so bright you cant see him"
Lol!
Wait.. lemme guess your god is... *drumroll* the sun! ... or hiding in the sun. Just like in old fashioned airplane dog fights, hide in the sun! Too bright they cannot see you! If the darn plane would just stay still, god can swoop out of the sun and surprise the plane!
I missed the part of the p̶r̶o̶o̶f summary of the proof where it established that god has a peepee.
@ avicenna
"God is not hiding, he is so bright you cant see him :D"
Bullshit.
When you are faced with a tough argument, you rely on pure lies and bullshit?
I repeat, where is your god?
"I repeat, where is your god?"
Now those are the kind of direct questions that so often have theists running for the exits. His god like all the rest either prefers not to make its existence known unequivocally, or it is a myth like all the others. Does anyone have a coin I can borrow? Orrrr, someone can demonstrate some ***OBJECTIVE*** evidence for a deity? Oh that's right they don't have any, which is why they reject objective empirical evidence, and the scientific method as the gold standard for validating claims. Usually in the same BS threads they start to pretend they're looking for common ground. As if we hadn't noticed that objective empirical evidence and the scientific methods ARE the best common ground we have.
Forget the coin, we need a live chicken, a sharp knife, a full moon and some bones blessed by a witch doctor. How's that for common fucking ground.
If you think that sarcasm is OTT, try this, we're being lectured, and offered arguments purportedly based on logical, to prove archaic superstitions about flying fucking horses and people living on after their brains die.
Avicenna
You can't logic a God into existence.
All morality is subjective, even if it came from a God.
I have prayed to god, God doesn't answer.
I have ask God to reveal itself, God remains hidden.
Therefore God doesn't exist, and I remain an Atheist.
"You can't logic a God into existence."
Why? The argument just did!
"All morality is subjective, even if it came from a God."
If you say this then your opinion about what is good or bad is subjective too... so dont condemn or ask why Hitler killed 6 million jews, or why there is suffering.. because it is subjective
"I have prayed to god, God doesn't answer.
I have ask God to reveal itself, God remains hidden.
Therefore God doesn't exist, and I remain an Atheist."
Common atheist logic... firstly you have to be truthful when you pray.
secondly, God is immaterial how are you gonna see him or hear him?
God will respond through signs, if you are truthful, God will reveal his signs and show you the way.
May God guide you towards the right path. Amen
""You can't logic a God into existence."
Why? The argument just did!"
>>Nope, not even close.
"All morality is subjective, even if it came from a God."
"If you say this then your opinion about what is good or bad is subjective too... so dont condemn or ask why Hitler killed 6 million jews, or why there is suffering.. because it is subjective"
>>Firstly Hitler was a theist who believed he was doing god's work and said so, and his hatred and persecution of Jews stemmed from centuries of christian antisemitism. Secondly why is wrong to condemn genocide just because it is a subjective opinion? Don't you think genocide is wrong, or do you have to be told not to do it?
"Common atheist logic... firstly you have to be truthful when you pray."
No True Scotsman Fallacy,you don't know he wasn't sincere, you're just using a logical fallacy to set an arbitrary exception to rationalise why prayers fail, beyond the obvious explanation.
"God is immaterial how are you gonna see him or hear him?"
All non existent things are, you can't hear or see what doesn't exist, that's axiomatic.
"May God guide you towards the right path. Amen"
pretty condescending, may you learn to use critical thinking and rational cogent reasoning to guide you to objectivity and away from superstition.
Thank you Sheldon.
"Nope, not even close."
Well, I guess plain statements without proof is the way you avoid answering or presenting a counterargument..
"No True Scotsman Fallacy"
This fallacy is informal though.. but I will leave it ..I need not to argue beyond the scope of the proof that I presented
"pretty condescending"
Sending someone a prayer is condescending?
here is a better version ..
May God guide you and me towards the right path. Amen
avicenna: May God guide you and me towards the right path. Amen
Just that you are following the left path.
rmfr
"May God guide you and me towards the right path. Amen"
You pray for us, and we'll think for you.
"Well, I guess plain statements without proof is the way you avoid answering or presenting a counterargument.."
If you understood logic at all you'd know that the lack of a contrary argument doesn't validate anything. This is called argumentum ad ignorantiam.
""No True Scotsman Fallacy"
This fallacy is informal though."
This doesn't alter the fact that you made a fallacious claim to rationalise why prayer fails, and to avoid the more obvious explanation
""pretty condescending"
Sending someone a prayer is condescending?"
Yes when you offer in place of cogent response to people you know full well are atheists. Something to bear in mind.
It appears that you have fallen off what remains of your logic horse and are now just shoveling manure.
Your argument failed to logic any God into existence. What evidence did it present for peer review. You can prove anything as long as you don't have to give evidence.
My argument against gods existence has disproved any God exist. No evidence required by your standards.
Morality is all subjective. Enough people thought Hitler was wrong for killing Jews and stopped him. Does subjective morals scare you?
True scottsmen much? You weren't there when I prayed to god.
Straw man much?
Quite a few atheist here at one point earnestly believed in god and earnestly prayed to him, just like their parents/peers told them to. Just like your peers and parents told you to. They did the same thing you did, they just happened to notice there prayers were going unanswered, and they could not detect their particular god anymore then they could detect santa clause, the boogeyman, or 1000 other gods.
All your "god can be found everywhere" proofs can be applied to any god, including god a-z I just made up.
Hi, Avi. What denominations are you with? I'm trying to get to know what your resources are for your beliefs, so pardon all the questions in one post. Which bible do you read? NASB? Also, why are you on an atheist forum?
I'm sincerely interested in knowing how you came to believe. Thanks.
@sheldon
....deity not showing u it exists... now i will not speak of the bible, but no argument in the koran XDDDD did u even read it in arabic?
like did u actually hold the book,read and try to understand .or are u stating this just cause? cause if u had as much as a brain cell while reading it everything u asked would literally be answered...or are u too lazy? its ok i get it human nature :p but if u have done no such thing like my research (held many religious books and read them and made sure u did not misinterpret what u read and take many other precautions) then u have no right to state such things in my opinion XD.
however.i will answer what u stated the quran gives many proofs that god exists the first being the quran itself as no man will ever be able to come up with something even remotely close to it and all those that tried failed now i don't know about u but when no human through out the 1400 the quran has been here not a single human was able to come up with something like it in terms of language?not even arabs?.
also what does ubiquitous suffering have to do with god XXDDD we did this to ourselves. u think god made us overpopulate? u think he told us to have ww1 and ww2? as far as he is concerned he put u on this earth (cause u choose to live as a human btw yes that is mentioned in the quran as well ) gave u a set of rules to do...if u don't do them u end up in hell and if u do them u end up in heaven (simple). where u end up is to up to u. u have free will XD, also ur definition of god is wrong :p.
plz dont waste time asking these questions and don't talk about something u didn't read :p.
@ silence1
Your grammer skills are for shit... Can't type. Can't spell. Can't punctuate.
I have.
Just cause what?
Actually I ain't got any brain cells. Smoked too much weed as a teen-ager. And no I ain't lazy. I could probably out-work you and I have been around for almost 6 decades.
Actually, I have done over 30 years researching. Guess what? It is all lies. Plagiarized stories from myths and legends that are far older than any religion.
Actually. I could. And have. Ever heard of the Hath'arnd? They are a species who have enslaved the peoples of the former Havran Empire using texts similar to the immorality of the Qu'ran and the Bible. And I have written the Hath'arnd textbook so I can have it for reference while I am writing my fantasy novel. Want to read it? Just read the Qu'ran and the Bible. Same thing.
The same as your ubiquitous god has to do with suffering.
Yep. We sure did. By letting Religious Absolutists bigots like you have too much power.
Yep. By telling us to be fruitful and multiply.
Probably not. But you Religious Absolutist bigots did.
Please provide objective hard empirical evidence proving this claim.
You still have yet to prove god exists. Now you need to prove hell and heaven exists.
And yet you neglect to provide a god definition. When you refuse to define it, then we are forced to define it ourselves.
I guarantee he has read the Qu'ran. I have read it twice. Three times if you include searching for verses to extract to prove my point.
rmfr
Ah the old "an omniscient omnipotent diety exists. but is a monoglot" argument. It's too idiotic to believe anyone is using it in earnest.
"like did u actually hold the book,read and try to understand"
Are you saying the Harry Potter books are validated by my not reading them? Do behave.
"cause if u had as much as a brain cell while reading it everything u asked would literally be answered"
That claim is too idiotic to be worthy of a serious response, I sincerely hope you are being facetious.
"are u too lazy? its ok i get it human nature :p but if u have done no such thing like my research (held many religious books and read them and made sure u did not misinterpret what u read and take many other precautions) then u have no right to state such things in my opinion XD."
Translation anyone? Is it in Arabic?
"however.i will answer what u stated the quran gives many proofs that god exists the first being the quran itself as no man will ever be able to come up with something even remotely close to it and all those that tried failed now i don't know about u but when no human through out the 1400 the quran has been here not a single human was able to come up with something like it in terms of language?not even arabs?."
Arabic again? Can anyone translate that into English for me?
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"also what does ubiquitous suffering have to do with god XXDDD we did this to ourselves."
Now this is better, though how you missed the context I don't know. Ubiquitous suffering directly contradicts the belief an omnibenevolent and omnipotent deity exists, and created everything. Suffering of course does not just derive from human action, that of course is axiomatic. Only a moron would fail to see this.
"u think he told us to have ww1 and ww2? "
No, I am an atheist so again this claim is too stupid to believe you're not being facetious. However it is hard to believe anyone is so stupid they don't see what such suffering implies for the claim a deity with limitless mercy and power exists and stood by watching, but did nothing to prevent it.
"as far as he is concerned he put u on this earth (cause u choose to live as a human btw yes that is mentioned in the quran as well ) gave u a set of rules to do...if u don't do them u end up in hell and if u do them u end up in heaven (simple). "
I agree, that claim is the very definition of simple.
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"where u end up is to up to u. u have free will XD, also ur definition of god is wrong :p."
I have some autonomy to choose destinations, you are correct. I have a certain amount of autonomy governed by circumstance, but no I demonstrably don't have free will. I gave no definition of any deity, One more time then. I AM AN ATHEIST!!!
"plz dont waste time asking these questions and don't talk about something u didn't read :p."
Feel free not to read my posts if you find them disconcerting. That aside I will post whatever I am minded to, and whenever the whim takes me, if you don't like it then tough titty.
As for reading, well I urge you to try it, and I can't overemphasise the benefits you will recoup when you broaden your reading away from archaic superstitions.
@ silence1
You just wasted 335 words saying absolutely nothing.
How about you providing an argument for your god, instead of referencing some piece of shit babble document? How about not passing off the bad shit as blame?
Yeah, provide an argument! Like what David said. None of this poopy head nonsense.
...and them comes the hemorrhoid reference...
rmfr
@Silence1 Re: "...being the quran itself as no man will ever be able to come up with something even remotely close to it and all those that tried failed..."
Bwaaaaah-haaaaaa-haaaaaa-haaaa....!....*panting heavily*....*trying to catch breath*...... Bwaaaa-haa-haa...*wiping tears from eyes*.... Ohhh, thank you! That was a good one!....*deeeep breath*....*quick exhale*....Phooo! I needed that! Mighty fine comedy there, my good man. Mighty fine. You should take that show on the road and do some stand-up gigs.
I hate to break it to you, though, but I could actually do a better job than the Koran just by writing a bible based on the Wizard of Oz. And it would definitely be much more entertaining, at the very least. Hell, I've already done a few gospels, as a matter of fact. (They're around here on the site somewhere. Just don't remember where I stashed them.) Anyway, thanks for the laugh. Good stuff, good stuff....*chuckle*
Why are there hemorrhoids?
I don't know. Why are there hemorrhoids?
(this is a joke, right? you have the punchline? it better be good.)
@ Magnificent Beast
This comment was a response to Sheldon's
"Hmm, well then why does the world we see contain ubiquitous suffering?"
Hemorrhoids are not a joke to those who suffer them. According to many religious positions, man was made in god's image. Supposedly a loving and caring god. So did your god give this affliction to mankind just to be a pain in the butt (which is contrary to the loving and caring), or does god have hemorrhoids too?
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