Hello, I'm a questioning person with fifteen years studying the Bible. I was recently kicked out of a church which was very traumatic and I'm now questioning everything.
I've started researching atheist arguments recently and noticed that the arguments pull from Christian doctrine very often. However, as I'm sure you know, doctrine of a group does not always match its explicit text. For example, the Christ says he came to fulfill the law and that the law of the spirit now says to love your enemies. But Christianity is so entrenched in God and country and patriotism and believes we should kill both enemies of war and also the innocent civilians that happen to be nearby.
With that said, I would be more interested in the Atheist perspective of the *Bible* as opposed to the religion that sprang up from it. It's very easy to not believe in the God of Christianity, but the God of the Bible is much more complex.
I will provide all scriptures that I base the following assertions on if anyone asks but am eliminating them here for brevity.
1. God creates good and evil.
2. There is no free will, because God has predetermined everything (including all good and all evil)
3. Judgment is purifying and temporal. It is not a physical place or eternal.
4. God deceives and God reveals (ties into #2). So the confusion in the world is intentional.
5. God gives his truth only to a few intentionally.
6. Christ says there are two groups, the group that is judged (saved first) and all the rest of creation after that. Christ brings all creation under himself and then subjects this then under God in the end. Essentially that in the end all of creation will be purified of the natural mind and we will all adopt the spiritual mind of Christ.
I've started really thinking about these core foundations of how the Bible describes God and creation, and I've wondered the following:
Is God evil for creating evil? Even though he created Satan to do the evil work, why is God not complicit?
Ok, and then I get super in over my head:
The Bible says to lean not own your own understanding....except you can reason why God is good or real. The Bible says the heart of man is deceptively wicked....except when it desires God. The Bible says to try the spirits to see whether they are evil or not....but never the spirit of God.
So take the evil of child rape as an example. I take that evil in the context of explicit passages in the Bible here:
God causes rape of children to create suffering in man to teach them that the spiritual mind and reality is more important than our physical experience. That he will right all these wrongs immeasurably. He will wipe away the tears he created. In this framework we are all sacrifices for all of creation in this gigantic work of saving all creation. Is this any less cruel than a God that punishes people in eternal torment? It becomes a comparison of lesser or greater evil. Is it more evil to rape a little girl or to eternally torment billions of people? It becomes an argument about if the atonement negates the evil. It raises the problem of, if evil is created by God then in a sense it's just a construct in the reality he's creating and he can somehow not be seen as a monster because this reality is not the true reality. Nevertheless, he created us in this reality and to react accordingly as if it's real. And if the fact that this physical reality is a constructed one to lead us to the value of a higher reality, then wouldn't the higher reality only be meaningful if we believed the lesser reality to be real? In the same sense that we look back on experiences in our life, memories, and compare them to the present. If the physical reality were, like a dream, not actually real life...then we are relieved and we think nothing of it. If entering the higher reality can be compared in the same way then why would we need atonement or the wiping away of tears for something which was not reality and just a dream?
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too long, did not read
I.e. was not interested, lol
@NicholasB: "I was recently kicked out of a church"
What did you do to deserve that?
It's a bit complicated but boils down to me having mental health issues and my state was too much of a burden for them.
@NicholasB: "my state was too much of a burden for them."
I find that hypocritical, especially when you recall the stories about their founder curing the mentally ill by "driving out demons". Do they also eject the blind and people in wheelchairs because they're too much trouble? According to their own rules, when these Christians kicked you out they also kicked Jesus out.
It's interesting that various religions set moral rules, such as the 10 Commandments, and then engage in all kinds of mental gymnastics to get around them. As an atheist, I'm guided by my own conscience and the morality I've absorbed from my family and society. I find the actions of your church community immoral and inhumane.
I mean...but I was kind of an emotional wreck and very needy for close to 8 years. For the most part they were always very loving. I agree with them kicking me out, free up energy there. What I didn't agree with is how they did it. They said I was trying to destroy the church, was mocking and pretending, antichrist, and not one of them. I shared a very emotional email once that was very vague and made no sense and they accused me of accusing them. Sometimes I would have strange visions. I was just not well. I eventually found their accusations to be false which really shook my world because it showed me they were using high power group psychology. I was an enigma, possibly creating cognitive dissonance for them, and chalked up my state as black and white and suddenly an enemy of the church. At first I believed them because I looked up to them. It's all very creepy and disturbing. I'm in therapy now, lol
I wonder why you're going to an atheist forum for your questions. They are good points and deserve answers.
First things first. Get your doctrine of sola scriptura and throw it away.
Because I've watched debates where atheists use logic to get at the core of a belief in a way religions don't. I'm seriously confused what the controversy is.
I wonder why you're going to an atheist forum for your questions. They are good points and deserve answers.
First things first. Get your doctrine of sola scriptura and throw it away.
@NicholasB
I strongly suspect you and your motive. I doubt that you were kicked out of a church. I think that you are soliciting replies so you can twist them in a later rant. I don't trust christians as far as I can throw them.
At any rate, coming to atheists for answers is not what you really want. We can't give you the answers that you want. If you want REASONS to quit being a christian, you'll have to come up with them all your own.
I am not allowed to call you names or I would. I don't like trolls or frauds. Do you fit either description?
So to the rest of the forum members, I think that this is the beginning of a troll. It is how they all start on this forum. Be suspicious.
As someone who literally had no religious indoctrination growing up, I find these posts so strange and weird...
Essentially to me, it is like a grown adult coming up to me and saying that Santa is real because it's a story in a book passed down by generations, there's even mediocre evidence that he may have been a real person!!! He doesn't like bad people and they won't get their special treat, but the good ones who believe will....
Honestly you can drag it on for ages, I found it funny at first but now just simply tedious like young earthers and flat earthers.
Wow, I don't have any I'll motives that I'm aware of. I've been researching atheist arguments for a while as an honestly skeptical person. I don't think I'm a troll for writing this? What about my post is troll ish? I sincerely was looking for input and would highly value it.
I thought that atheists were all about critical thinking and logic? My post is looking for this. If you're offended by the material or not interested in it then just say that. If you didn't actually read and reflect on the entire post, admit that. But don't accuse me of being a troll without providing any evidence.
Of course I was kicked out of a church! Twice! You should believe a person until you have evidence to the contrary. Even if I provided full documentation, would you then feel inclined to respond?
Now this is no knock on you personally, but I believe no man until evidence is presented. Now I may give people the benefit of the doubt in some situations, but I will not simply believe someone.
This is why religion baffles me, you say believe a person until you have evidence against... there is no evidence for god, why should I believe it?
Do you simply believe in all fairy tales because someone told you they were real?
If I said that I was abducted by super intelligent Aliens and all they wanted to do was shove things up my butt, would you believe me???
Now this is no knock on you personally, but I believe no man until evidence is presented. Now I may give people the benefit of the doubt in some situations, but I will not simply believe someone.
This is why religion baffles me, you say believe a person until you have evidence against... there is no evidence for god, why should I believe it?
Do you simply believe in all fairy tales because someone told you they were real?
If I said that I was abducted by super intelligent Aliens and all they wanted to do was shove things up my butt, would you believe me???
Did you read my post?
I did read your post, but I am commenting on your comment specifically.
...but my comment is talking about the belief that I'm a troll. ....
Ok so my opinion still stands why believe something before there is evidence to support it?
Mykcob4 believes you are a troll, instead of asserting that you are not engage in debate.... bring up points to refute that which he believes to be true.
Like with me for example... you ignored my opinion of not believing in something before you have evidence.
Do you believe that aliens that are far superior in intelligence than humans, traveled millions of light years just to abduct me and the only reason was to shove things in my butt?
If not why?
Oh dear...ok, yes I believe there should be evidence like you. However, there is no shortage of atheists debating purported biblical ideas despite the fact that they have no evidence for God having written the Bible. I have no interest in debate here...I'm interested in hearing the atheist response to specific points in my post which I believe to be fascinating problems to consider. Perhaps an atheist with an interest in philosophy is most suited to respond.
Nicholas, you said you are interested in hearing “the atheist response”...
There’s no such thing.
There are a lot of individuals’ responses. But no such thing as THE atheist response to a bloody thing.
No NicholasB, it is up to you to prove you are legit. I didn't say that you were a troll. I said that I suspected as much.
And please don't ask me how to prove it. I have been on forums from when they first started. I have been on this one for, oh I don't know, 2 years maybe or more. I can smell a rat. I just suspect you of being a rat. Who gets kicked out of a church and immediately turns to an atheist forum for answers, and ON that forum claims to be a non-atheist, AND have such severe mental problems that his church couldn't handle it? That makes me suspicious. That is logic and a display of critical thought!
I was kicked out of my church 5 months ago. I never said I was a non-atheist. Would you like me to email you the email they sent me?
Are you assuming that because I used to be a Christian I must not have any critical thought?
I felt I was going crazy in the church....for many reasons...but one was that I had a fearful suspicion that it was all a mind game God was playing with me...and then that has moved to me seeing the brain as creating the mind game. Do I have your blessing now? Do I have some atheist cred now? I did not care to share the specifics earlier because it was not relevant to my debate post in a debate forum. In the end, nobody really answered my post, they just pushed me around like a bunch of trolls thinking I was an undercover missionary and showed themselves to be douchebags, lacking critical thought. Goodbye Atheist Republic!
This is the very first atheist forum I've posted in. I guess I'll move to others and make my post until I find atheists that don't accuse me of being a troll. Is it because I have a Christian background (indoctrination) that y'all are so suspect and hands off? Please, I've spent years of my life searching for truth and am very honest and critical in my pursuits. Is it because I've shown that the Bible doesn't actually teach what Christianity teaches? And that without Christian doctrine the atheist loses a lot of their best arguments? This isn't me being a troll, I'm sincerely curious how atheists respond to the Bible and not to Christianity. I've never really believed in the Christian God...that God is so preposterous. The core of my question was to get atheist input on the issue of evil as evil is described in the Bible.
Nicholas, no one person identified as atheist represents all folks identified as such.
Ok, so then the accusatory atheists should step aside and let the atheists who want to authentically engage do that.
Since, as you say, this is the first forum you’ve posted in, be advised that there are likely as many divergent opinions as there are folks who participate. Opinions are welcome here. As long as folks aren’t complete assholes, they are welcome to chime in with what ever they like. You can either simply ignore the posts/posters you disagree with or debate them. So feel free to jump in whenever you like.
What arguments do atheists lose?
Theism- belief in a god claim.
Atheism- lack of belief in a god claim.
Not sure where the confusion is...
Maybe you're thinking of anti theism?
You're looking for conflict where there is none.
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