The god paradox

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Southern Atheist's picture
The god paradox

I was having this discussion with some of my theist friends and they couldn't wrap their heads around what I was saying.

So I would love to see how it goes here.

The god paradox is essentially that "god" being able to do anything and everything could create something that he can't do.

for instance

Can god somehow create a rock that he himself is unable to lift up?

If he can that means he can't lift the rock.

If he can't lift the rock that means he is unable to do anything and everything.

thoughts?
opinions?

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Tin-Man's picture
Southern! Allow me to be the

Southern! Allow me to be the first to welcome you to the AR! Great having you with us. Really diggin' that profile pic, too, by the way... *chuckle*... Many good folks here, so come on in and enjoy the hospitality. Watch out for Old Man, though. He can get a little reckless at times on that tricycle of his. Oh, and if Cog ever approaches you holding a pig nose, IMMEDIATELY turn and run away. Just be mindful of all the banana peels he leaves scattered around, though. Otherwise, it is relatively safe around here.

As for your paradox, it is certainly quite the conundrum. No doubt, though, any theist reading it will certainly have a way to somehow wiggle around it... *chuckle*.... Hang around long enough, and you'll see what I mean.

Southern Atheist's picture
@Tin-man

@Tin-man
I plan on being here for quite a while lol
thank you for the kind welcome
look forward to the discussion

Tin-Man's picture
HEY! Where did Joe Dirt go???

HEY! Where did Joe Dirt go???

Southern Atheist's picture
@Tin-man

@Tin-man
I'm trying different pictures.
I brought him back

NewSkeptic's picture
Most theists I've seen claim

Most theists I've seen claim that God can do everything that is possible to do, thus using language to nullify the paradox. So, God can lift any rock and the fact that he cannot make a rock that he cannot lift is not a limit on his omnipotence.

Personally, I find it more useful to point out the logical inconsistency between omniscience and freewill which is less of an attempt at a "gotcha" and much harder for the theist to dance around.

...and the only way your picture could be better is if you were holding a Billy Beer.

David Killens's picture
This is an old line theists

This is an old line theists used to casually throw around, that their god was omnipotent, almighty, yadd yadda yadda. But when a sharp mind did ask that question, apologetics was born, a method used in describing something stupid and basically impossible.

But when you start to ask the hard questions,then the christian wall of cards crumbles. Did jesus really die for our sins? Is he really dead and gone, or in heaven? Because if jesus is in heaven, then he did not die for anyone.

Jo's picture
@ David Killens

@ David Killens

Was Jesus human? Can humans die?

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ Jo

@ Jo

Did the Jesus figure as described in the gospels actually exist?

David Killens's picture
@Jo

@Jo

According to your bible,jesus was the son of god, also part of the holy trinity. Thus, not human. Of course humans die.

But that was not the question I asked, Is your jesus actually dead and gone, or in heaven right now?

Tin-Man's picture
@David K. Re: "Is your jesus

@David K. Re: "Is your jesus actually dead and gone, or in heaven right now?"

Could only be rumors, but the last I heard is that he is hanging out with Elvis on some beach down around the Virgin Islands. People probably wouldn't recognize him now, though, because it is said that Elvis has been getting Jesus plumped up with a steady diet of jelly donuts and fried peanut butter/banana sandwiches.

Jo's picture
@ David Killens

@ David Killens

Where is the trinity in the Bible?
Does it not say that God became a human?

"Is your jesus actually dead and gone, or in heaven right now?"
He did die, is in heaven, and his spirit is with us.
John 1:14 "So the Word became human [flesh] and made his home among us."
Rev 1:18 "I am the living one. I died, but look—I am alive forever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and the grave."

Grinseed's picture
@ Jo

@ Jo

We have been here before...

1 John 5

7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Jo's picture
@ Grinseed

@ Grinseed

Yes we have. Thought it was settled.
I am a father, and a son, and a member of AR, and these three are one.

Grinseed's picture
Settled? The trinitarian

Settled? The trinitarian/unitarian issue has never been settled in all the almost 1,700 years it has been argued over.

Your analogy of father/son/AR 'spirit' is invalid. You are not claiming to be your own son or your own father and contributing to online forums is not usually the work of the holy ghost.

You asked where the trinity was in the bible. I provided the reference. Its in the bible because as I am told God wanted it there.

Your explanation is wanting but to be fair depending on the christian I ask I would get various responses and each and all of them would be wanting in explaining, logically, one of the enigmatc 'mysteries' of an ancient religion.

Jo's picture
@ Grinseed

@ Grinseed

I meant it had been discussed recently on AR and I thought settled.
That is all I meant.

The reference you gave did not use the word trinity.
Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are titles.
Someone can have more than one title.
I am sure you are familiar with "the Lord our God is one".

It is not an "enigmatic mystery."
It is right there in black and white.
Over and over in the Bible, God is describes as "one", "alone", and "I"
In Rev 1:8-9 Jesus is described as the first and the last, the almighty one, and the Lord God.
"Look! He comes with the clouds of heaven. And everyone will see him—even those who pierced him.
And all the nations of the world will mourn for him. Yes! Amen!
“I am the Alpha and the Omega—the beginning and the end,”says the Lord God.
“I am the one who is, who always was, and who is still to come—the Almighty One.”

David Killens's picture
@Jo

@Jo

What is your position now that it is obvious that jesus did not die for your sins?

Jo's picture
@ David Killens

@ David Killens

Please run it by me again, how is it obvious that Jesus did not die for my sins?

David Killens's picture
@Jo

@Jo

"Please run it by me again, how is it obvious that Jesus did not die for my sins?"

Because jesus is alive in heaven, thus not dead. And if jesus isn't dead, he sure didn't die for anyone, including you and your sins.

Jo's picture
@ David Killens

@ David Killens

If someone dies and goes to heaven, they didn't really die?

Are you saying he was resurrected?

David Killens's picture
@Jo

@Jo

"Are you saying he was resurrected?"

I am quoting you directly from reply #12

"Rev 1:18 "I am the living one. I died, but look—I am alive forever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and the grave."

Jo's picture
@ David Killens

@ David Killens

I agree that as Rev 1:18 states, he died.
Are you saying that if someone dies and is resurrected, they don't get credit for dying?

Southern Atheist's picture
@NewSkeptic

@NewSkeptic
lol thank you sir
would you mind giving me an example of the logical inconsistency of free will and omniscience?
I apologize
I haven't researched how those particular subjects collide with each other yet.

Thank you kind sir!

NewSkeptic's picture
Re: Omniscience and Freewill

Re: Omniscience and Freewill

If God is omniscient, he knows everything, past, present and future, no exceptions.

Therefore, he knows, and has always known, each choice that each of his creations will make, knows who will accept him and who will reject him, knows this before each of his creations is born, and he cannot by definition be wrong.

Since all of this has been known by God, forever, and he cannot be wrong, freewill cannot exist, since he is all powerful, he can create the illusion of freewill, but his omniscience mean that it is just that, an illusion.

Jo's picture
@ NewSkeptic

@ NewSkeptic

Knowing something is going to happen is to cause it to happen?

NewSkeptic's picture
@Jo,

@Jo,

I would not say knowing is the cause, but the fact that it is known in advance means that no actual choice can be made..

To me, no area shows more what a fucking monster the Christian God is. He knows, before you are created, whether or not you will burn in hell for eternity. It is predestined. There is nothing you can do about it because God has always known who will burn and who will not. We are just puppets on a string playing out his perfect plan, which is to sentence most to an eternal torture. Hitler and Stalin were no where near that evil.

I've never received a satisfactory response to this and you just blew off the implications with a non sequitur.

Again, omniscience and freewill cannot exist together. Pick one.

Jo's picture
@ New Skeptic

@ New Skeptic

Because something is known in advance by one person, means some other person has no actual choice? How does one follow the other?

"To me, no area shows more what a fucking monster the Christian God is. He knows, before you are created, whether or not you will burn in hell for eternity. It is predestined. There is nothing you can do about it because God has always known who will burn and who will not. We are just puppets on a string playing out his perfect plan, which is to sentence most to an eternal torture. Hitler and Stalin were no where near that evil."
What you said is basically the opposite of what the Bible says.

"Again, omniscience and freewill cannot exist together. Pick one."
Why can't they?
God can only do one or the other?
Can God choose to not know?
Is he just one dimensional?
Can he know but act as if he does not?

NewSkeptic's picture
@Jo,

@Jo,

You are so poisoned by your irrational beliefs that you cannot understand even the most simple concepts.

Yes, if you know in advance my coin toss is going to come up heads, because you have absolute perfect foreknowledge (omniscience), then when I flip that coin it cannot, by definition, come up tails. That is not hard to understand.

Your last paragraph is the worst kind of special pleading, changing definitions to try to force in logical inconsistencies.

A mind is a terrible thing to waste Jo.

Jo's picture
@ NewSkeptic

@ NewSkeptic

You are making God one dimensional.
Omniscience is just one characteristic of God.
It is qualified by other characteristics.

Knowing something will happen no more causes it to happen than knowing something did happen caused it to happen.
You are making a modal fallacy. It is contingent, not compelled.
For a lengthy explanation please see.https://www.iep.utm.edu/foreknow/#H6

NewSkeptic's picture
Let's talk logical fallacies,

Let's talk logical fallacies, shall we?

Your statement,

"Knowing something will happen no more causes it to happen than knowing something did happen caused it to happen."

has at least two.

First, it is an attempt to switch the burden of proof. You are asking me to explain the connection between omniscience and causality. I've already stated that knowledge is not a cause. I have no fucking idea how omniscience is supposed to work mechanically. That is your burden.

Secondly, its a straw man argument. Causality is not even the issue.

Let's try once more.

From Merriam-Webster:

Omniscient

1 : having infinite awareness, understanding, and insight
an omniscient author
the narrator seems an omniscient person who tells us about the characters and their relations
— Ira Konigsberg
2 : possessed of universal or complete knowledge
the omniscient God

Definition of foreknow:
transitive verb

: to have previous knowledge of : know beforehand especially by paranormal means or by revelation

So, Foreknowledge is a subset of Omniscience. Let's continue.

Definition of predestination
1 : the act of predestinating : the state of being predestinated
2 : the doctrine that God in consequence of his foreknowledge of all events infallibly guides those who are destined for salvation

hmmmm. interesting. So Foreknowledge is a subset of omniscience and foreknowledge implies predestination.

Now, how about freewill.

free will noun
Definition of free will (Entry 2 of 2)
1 : voluntary choice or decision
I do this of my own free will
2 : freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention

#2 there is real interesting. So Omniscience, Foreknowledge and Predestination are all compatible, but Freewill is the antithesis.

I get that you want to believe, but your beliefs just don't hold up to critical analysis.

I'm sure you'll hand wave this away, but to any honest observer, you've lost the debate.

Tin-Man's picture
@NewSkeptic Re: Omniscience

@NewSkeptic Re: Omniscience/Free Will

Thank you for that. Clear, concise, and to the point... *tipping hat in respect*...

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