The god paradox

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xenoview's picture
@TM Thank you

@TM
Thank you

Grinseed's picture
Wanting Yahweh to create that

Wanting Yahweh to create that rock in the first place is tempting the Lord God Almighty.

You wanna burn in hell for eternity for a lapidary magic trick?
I'm still waiting for the dead to just get up and rock and roll.

Randomhero1982's picture
If God created this heavy

If God created this heavy rock I'd be into him!

What are we talking though? Bon Jovi? Def Leopard?

David Killens's picture
@Randonhero1982

@Randonhero1982

"If God created this heavy rock I'd be into him!

What are we talking though? Bon Jovi? Def Leopard?"

Since god is involved, we must go to Metallica. If it was the devil, we would reference AC/DC.

Jo's picture
@ Southern Atheist

@ Southern Atheist

Welcome from one of those dastardly theist. :-)

Creating a paradox does not prove anything. Here is an example.
Answer this question - Are you still lying?
If you say yes you admit you are continuing to lie.
If you say no you are admitting to previously lying.
But my silly paradox doesn't really say anything about your truthfulness
Just as your question about God does not evidence anything about his nature.

God is not just one dimensional.
While he is omnipotent he is also logical.
So he cannot do something that is illogical.

David Killens's picture
@Jo

@Jo

"So he cannot do something that is illogical."

Second commandment: "Thou shalt have no other gods before me". But if there is just one god, why this commandment? Isn't that rather ... illogical?

xenoview's picture
@Jo

@Jo
What proof do you have that any god is real? Your god has a lot of human characteristics, that's because humans made up god to explain the unknown and supernatural. Science has explained a lot things that people use to say god did it.

Jo's picture
@ David Killens

@ David Killens

"But if there is just one god, why this commandment? Isn't that rather ... illogical?"

By worshiping those other gods, they are believing they exists, when they do not.
So he is saying don't beleive that lie and act on that lie.

People can worship anything, even things that do not exist.
God is not saying there are many gods, but you are only to worship me.
He is saying there is only one, so only worship the one.
Someone could worship your gnome on a toilet (is that what your picture is).
But we know it isn't real, don't we? :-)

Tin-Man's picture
@Jo Re: "God is not saying

@Jo Re: "God is not saying there are many gods, but you are only to worship me."

...*trying to control laughter*... Your hilarious lack of reading comprehension skills aside, your god sounds a lot like this....

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Southern Atheist's picture
@jo

@jo
"People can worship anything, even things that do not exist."

interesting theory

David Killens's picture
@Jo

@Jo

Why doesn't your god just come out and state that there are no other gods?

And yes, my gnome on the toilet is just as real as your god.

Jo's picture
@ David Killen"

@ David Killen"

"Why doesn't your god just come out and state that there are no other gods?"
Here is a few, how many do you want?

Deut 3:35 "You were shown these things so that you might know that the Lord is God; besides him there is no other."
Isaiah 45:5 "I am the Lord, and there is no other; apart from me there is no God."
1 Kings 8:60 "so that all the peoples of the earth may know that the Lord is God and that there is no other."

xenoview's picture
@Jo

@Jo
How do you know your god is the one true god? Do you believe that because your bible says so? Your bible is the claim, not the evidence.

ROYISM 's picture
@Southern Atheist

@Southern Atheist

It's not a question of God's ability, it's a question of God's will. He will not do anything that undermines his godly office. For example, he will not lie, he will not cheat etc. That does not mean God CANNOT lie, it only means that he WILL NOT lie. Because then it would violate his quality of being the truth. Similarly, God will not create a rock that he can't lift because then it would violate his quality of omnipotence. That's true even of humans. You look up to some people with respect for their honesty, not because they have some inherent disability to lie or cheat. Rather, they choose not to do so despite their ability to do so.

David Killens's picture
@ROYISM

@ROYISM

You are asserting that god is not a liar or a cheat. I need proof on that assertion, I will not take it blindly. And based on what I have read in different bibles, this god is a very dishonest entity. The example of Abraham and Isaac is one where god did lie to Abraham. And that apparent contradiction where this god really wants adoration, yet plays hide-and-seek.

So I have a lot of evidence that indicates this god is dishonest, yet you state the opposite.

Please provide proof (more than just an unevidenced assertion) on the honesty of your god.

ROYISM 's picture
@David Killesn

@David Killesn

You said: “You are asserting that god is not a liar or a cheat. I need proof on that assertion, I will not take it blindly.”

Every argument is to be weighed in its context. The context here is a specific paradox issue that arises in the case of the Abrahamic God? “Can god create a rock that he can’t lift, without contradicting his omnipotence?” Therefore, the answer to that is premised on the Abrahamic god. Hence the assumption of his attributes such as God is not a liar or a cheat.

You said: “And based on what I have read in different bibles, this god is a very dishonest entity.”

I am not a Christian, I am a Muslim. So, I think a Christian would be in a better position to answer your questions.

David Killens's picture
@ROYISM

@ROYISM

Once again, instead of an honest reply you wiggle and squirm. I deliberately left out any references to christianity, yet you still attempt to use that ploy?

Are all Muslims, is your religion as dishonest as you are?

ROYISM 's picture
@David Killens

@David Killens

You said: “Once again, instead of an honest reply you wiggle and squirm. I deliberately left out any references to christianity, yet you still attempt to use that ploy?”

No you did not. Here is the reference you made to the bible. “And based on what I have read in different bibles, this god is a very dishonest entity.”

xenoview's picture
@Royism

@Royism
You seem to know a lot of what god can do, and can't do. Can you prove your god is real? The bible is the claim, not the evidence.

Cognostic's picture
@ROYISM: More ignorant

@ROYISM: More ignorant mumbling from the theists on the site. If you want a real answer ask an atheist. Assuming I were still an ignorant theist, I would have responded with.....

No Paradox here if you were ever a REAL CHRISTIAN. This is such a basic reply that it clearly demonstrates Royism has never opened a holy book in his life.

"The Son is the gleaming brightness of God's glory. He is the exact likeness of God's being. He uses his powerful word to hold all things together. (Hebrews 1:3a)

All things were created through Him and for Him. 17He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. (Colossians 1:17 )

Psalm 135:6-7
Whatever the LORD pleases, He does, In heaven and in earth, in the seas and in all deeps. He causes the vapors to ascend from the ends of the earth; Who makes lightnings for the rain, Who brings forth the wind from His treasuries.

1 Corinthians 8:6
Verse Concepts yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.

IN REPLY: There is nothing without God. "Can god build a rock so big that he can not lift it." YES! God is the rock, god is the one doing the lifting, god is the one lifting the lifter, ad infintum.

There is no paradox. All you have asked is "Can god lift himself for it is in him that all things exist." God is the rock, he is the world surrounding the rock, and he is the lifter. All at the same time. The paradox only occurs when you see yourself and the world as being different than or separated from the God that created you.

ROYISM 's picture
@Cognostic

@Cognostic

You said: “IN REPLY: There is nothing without God. "Can god build a rock so big that he can not lift it." YES! God is the rock, god is the one doing the lifting, god is the one lifting the lifter, ad infintum.

First of all, I am not a Christian, but yes I have read a little bit of the bible. However, I was answering it from the Islamic perspective. In Islam God is unique and different from the creation. Islam doesn’t not say that the creator and the creation are the same. If that were the case, then you would have to say God is the sinner and the sin as well. He is the liar and the lie. And that would render the argument that God is good meaningless.

David Killens's picture
@ROYISM

@ROYISM

Your god created everything, and is responsible for everything that happened. Yet your god created sin, lies, and porn.

Anything that can think about midget porn is not pure of mind.

Tin-Man's picture
@David K. Re: "Anything

@David K. Re: "Anything that can think about midget porn is not pure of mind."

Hey! Don't be dissin' the midget porn! Besides, it absolutely CAN be pure if it is shot on location in a mosque or church with an Imam standing within the scene reading scriptures from the Koran, along with a Catholic priest chanting "Hail Mary full of grace" while continuously sprinkling holy water across the actors as they perform. So get your mind out of the gutter, please.

Jo's picture
@ David Killens

@ David Killens

Does God make you do, say, and think the things you do?

David Killens's picture
According to the christian

According to the christian theology, yes. God created everything, knows everything, thus knew at the instant of creation I would be currently typing these words on my keyboard.

But I am an atheist, I know better. I have free will.

Jo's picture
@ David Killens

@ David Killens

I was not asking if God knows what you are going to type.
Is he making you type those words, or are you choosing to type them?

Nyarlathotep's picture
Jo - Is [God] making you type

Jo - Is [God] making you type those words, or are you choosing to type them?

Well if god is real, knows everything, and created everything:

Then god knew what David would type 1000's of years before David even existed, making it impossible for David to do anything differently. That makes your use of the word "choosing" problematic; since a choice seems to require at least two options, and (given the listed postulates) David only had 1 option. David had no choice (given the postulates).

Jo's picture
@ Nyarlathotep

@ Nyarlathotep

It is a fallacy of logic to say David had no choice.
Please see.https://www.iep.utm.edu/foreknow/#H6

David Killens's picture
Jo, I am a huge science

Jo, I am a huge science fiction fan and I have read many books. One of my favorite authors was the king of the space opera, E.E. Doc Smith. In his Lensman series he describes a super intelligent race known as the Arisians. Because of their mental abilities, they could know where every atom in the universe was located, and from that information determine the outcome of interactions.

The point is that a super smart entity, with enough data, can calculate future events with great accuracy far into the future. And that is your god. And since your god created everything and set everything in motion, that god knew every outcome that was going to happen... before your god even created the universe. And since your god was the cause of everything, then your god is also the cause for every interaction and result.

Understand this: that your god set up the dominoes. The outcome was pre-determined before the first domino fell.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lo6x4eulY9g

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ David

@ David

The point is that a super smart entity, with enough data, can calculate future events with great accuracy far into the future. And that is your god. And since your god created everything and set everything in motion, that god knew every outcome that was going to happen... before your god even created the universe. And since your god was the cause of everything, then your god is also the cause for every interaction and result.

Nice one....

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