The god paradox

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NewSkeptic's picture
Well how about that!!

Well how about that!!

Just one question, when you tip your hat, does it ever show any rust below or possibly some creepy crawlers that are living there? Or possibly, might a can of WD40 fall out that you may have stored there? From your picture, it look like a crowbar might actually be needed in order to actually tip your hat.

Anyway, thanks for the shout out.

Tin-Man's picture
@NewSkeptic Re: "...when you

@NewSkeptic Re: "...when you tip your hat, does it ever show any rust below or possibly some creepy crawlers that are living there?"

Rust..... A whoooooole bunch of rust. Oh, and maybe a few loose gears and screws tumbling around in the rust. As for my can of WD-40..... *looking up and away*... Ummm... No offense, but, uh, I would really rather not say where I store that... *walking away on tiptoes in strange manner*...

NewSkeptic's picture
@Tin-Man

@Tin-Man

Ouch, But how else to get it through metal detectors?

ROYISM 's picture
@New Skeptic

@New Skeptic
You said: #2 there is real interesting. So Omniscience, Foreknowledge and Predestination are all compatible, but Freewill is the antithesis.

Let me give you an example to explain how predestination and freewill go hand in hand.

Imagine a father has 2 kids. The older one is a genius. The younger one is, say 4 years, is adamant.

The father plans to get his first son an encyclopedia for his birthday. But knowing about his second son, he decides to get 2 gifts. So he gets an encyclopedia and a box of chocolates.

On the day of the birthday, in order to placate the second son, the father presents both the gifts to the second son, and says, “you choose whichever you want, and I will give the other one to your brother.”

But the father knew in advance that the 4 year old would choose the chocolates, and that he would be able to present the older son the book.

The second son exercises his freewill – chooses the chocolates - yet the father’s overall plan was carried out just so. Just because, the boy’s freewill was co-opted into the plan, it doesn’t undermine the fact that his freewill was fully exercised.

CyberLN's picture
Royism, the father cannot

Royism, the father cannot KNOW what the son will choose. He can only suspect a particular outcome.

ROYISM 's picture
@CyberLN

@CyberLN

You said: “Royism, the father cannot KNOW what the son will choose. He can only suspect a particular outcome.

Even if the knowledge is absolute, how does that affect freewill? It’s true that when god knows something absolutely, there is no way it can happen any other way. But it’s not because God knew it, that it happens. Rather, it is because it is bound to happen that God absolutely knows it.

NewSkeptic's picture
@Royism,

@Royism,

Can you read. That was already explained. ...and stop with the causality strawman.

ROYISM 's picture
@New Skeptic

@New Skeptic

You said: “Can you read. That was already explained. ...and stop with the causality strawman.”

Causality is not a strawman. Because that is indeed at the heart of the issue. Let me explain using your coin flipping example. There are two events here. 1. God’s absolute knowledge of heads turning up. 2. An event where the flip of a coin showed up heads.

If you are saying that it’s not about causality, then it really doesn’t matter in which sequence they happen. Which means whether god knew it first and then the event occurred, or whether the event occurred and God knew it, makes no difference. Therefore God’s absolute knowledge should not restrain freewill any more than my absolute knowledge of an event post its occurrence should affect it.

So if you don’t have an issue with causality, then you essentially should have no problems with freewill.

NewSkeptic's picture
I don't have a problem with

I don't have a problem with freewill (maybe libertarian freewill, but that is another issue).

I have a problem with omniscience, which I've explained over and over again is logically inconsistent with the concept of freewill.

It's the logical impossibility of omniscience you are not conceptualizing, the actual method by which your supposed God knows things that haven't happened yet. You keep conflating this with causality, but omniscience is again yours to justify. You tell me how this is done. I'm only saying that in your concept, it is somehow done. Once that knowledge is there, in the mind of your imaginary friend, freewill ceases and predestination rules. You've done absolutely nothing to refute this except throw out poorly constructed analogies while.I showed this to be the case by definition.

I just lay this out there for others your mind is so twisted it is simply impossible for you to allow yourself to understand.

NewSkeptic's picture
@Royism,

delete double post

CyberLN's picture
Royism, if absolute knowledge

Royism, if absolute knowledge of the future is possible then it follows that the future is set. Capisce?

ROYISM 's picture
@CyberLN

@CyberLN

You said: Royism, if absolute knowledge of the future is possible then it follows that the future is set. Capisce?

So you are indeed arguing that ‘absolute knowledge’ causes the future event. Read my answer to skeptic about causality.

NewSkeptic's picture
That's not at all what he

That's not at all what he said.

CyberLN's picture
Royism, you wrote, “So you

Royism, you wrote, “So you are indeed arguing that ‘absolute knowledge’ causes the future event. Read my answer to skeptic about causality.”

No, I am not arguing that. I am positing that if the future is precisely knowable, then what is known will be. If that is the case, then it cannot change. If it cannot change, then I cannot change. If I cannot change then I haven’t a free will.

Knowing what will happen doesn’t necessarily CAUSE what will happen...unless you throw in creation. If the knower of the future CREATED everything, then that creator did/will cause the future.

Either way, free will goes down the toilet.

Nyarlathotep's picture
Royism - So you are indeed

Royism - So you are indeed arguing that ‘absolute knowledge’ causes the future event.

I wonder how many times we are going to hear that strawman. I've lost count, in just this thread.

NewSkeptic's picture
Exactly. There is no

Exactly. There is no knowledge here. Although unlikely from the parameters, the second son could indeed have a fascination with encyclopedias unknown to his father (among a million different possibilities) and choose that instead of the candy.

That analogy is an epic failure.

ROYISM 's picture
@New Skeptic

@New Skeptic

You said: “Exactly. There is no knowledge here. Although unlikely from the parameters, the second son could indeed have a fascination with encyclopedias unknown to his father (among a million different possibilities) and choose that instead of the candy.’

As long as absolute knowledge is not a causal factor (according to your argument), then freewill is not restrained. Read my answer to your causality rebuttal.

ROYISM 's picture
You said: “It's the logical

You said: “It's the logical impossibility of omniscience you are not conceptualizing, the actual method by which your supposed God knows things that haven't happened yet.”

Two points to note here.

First: The method of ‘how god knows’ is irrelevant, and as per theology it is beyond human understanding. What religion tries to explain is only the why of God’s purposes and not the how of it.

Second: The crux lies in your stressing the point, “God knows things that haven’t happened yet.” There is an implication of causality in your insistence of sequence of events – God knowing before the occurrence.

In fact, God is NOT an entity bound by time. God is the creator of time, and hence independent of it in the absolute sense. Which is why to talk of God’s foreknowledge from our time-constrained understanding of existence of moving through past – present – future can be extremely limiting.

You said: “Once that knowledge is there, in the mind of your imaginary friend, freewill ceases and predestination rules.”

Look at the way you have framed the sentence: “Once that knowledge is there… freewill ceases and predestination rules.” There is a sequence to it… ‘knowledge’ happening first, followed by ‘cessation of freewill’ and followed by ‘predestination’. There is no way we can escape this time-constraint even in our understanding of concepts, which is precisely what God is not restrained by. And it is this logical sequence that makes your argument ‘causal’.

xenoview's picture
@royism

@royism
First you say humans can't understand god. Then you proceed to say what god knows. So which way is it?

ROYISM 's picture
@Xenoview

@Xenoview

You said: “First you say humans can't understand god. Then you proceed to say what god knows. So which way is it?

We can’t understand God beyond what He has revealed himself to us. What has been revealed I know. What has not been revealed, I don’t know. My source is my scripture.

Sheldon's picture
Jo

Jo

Knowing something is going to happen is to cause it to happen.

I know the suns going to come up tomorrow as the earth revolves, does this mean you think I've caused that sunrise?

Jo's picture
@ Sheldon

@ Sheldon

Thank you for assisting me in proving my point.
You illustration shows that knowing something (or everything) does not cause it to happen.

Please note that my original statement had a question mark at the end.

Tin-Man's picture
@Southern Re: Omniscience

@Southern Re: Omniscience and Freewill

Hey, just to expand a bit on NewSkeptic's excellent explanation, here is another angle for you. As we all know, God has a Plan. It is a most Perfect Plan. It was a Perfect Plan that he made long before the existence of the universe or time. And (Glory be!) we are ALL part of God's most wonderful Perfect Plan. (Hallelujah!) And absolutely NOTHING and NOBODY can change God's unquestionably Perfect Plan. (Praise the Lord!) And because of his absolute and divine Perfect Plan, God knows everything - (Let me repeat... EVERYTHING) - that is happening, that has EVER happened, and that ever WILL happen to each and every single human being that has ever existed or that ever will exist. (Can I get an, "Amen!", brothers and sisters?) Therefore, every... single... thing... you have ever thought, said, or done is EXACTLY how God planned it as part of his Perfect Plan since long before he ever uttered the words, "Let there be light!" (Oh, thank you, thank you, thank you, dear sweet baby Jesus!) And even as I type this message, God KNOWS exactly what I am typing. He KNOWS exactly what I am thinking. He has known these things countless eons before I ever existed in this world. And God already KNOWS exactly where I will go after I depart from the mortal bounds of this tiny speck of dust we call Earth. Again, God knew this even before the existence of time! (Hallelujah, hallelujah!) And what this means, brothers and sisters, is that even as I sit here and compose this message to send out over the internet, I am doing God's Will to bring his glorious Perfect Plan to fruition! (Glory be, glory be!)...... But - hey - it is TOTALLY my choice as to whether or not I want to be a part of that. Just sayin'...

xenoview's picture
Welcome to AR!

Welcome to AR!
If a god could make a rock too big to lift, then all it has to do is make a being that can lift the rock.

Tin-Man's picture
@xeno Re: "If a god could

@xeno Re: "If a god could make a rock too big to lift, then all it has to do is make a being that can lift the rock."

Holy shit, xeno! You are smarter than god! AWESOME!

xenoview's picture
@TM Thank you

@TM
Thank you

Grinseed's picture
Wanting Yahweh to create that

Wanting Yahweh to create that rock in the first place is tempting the Lord God Almighty.

You wanna burn in hell for eternity for a lapidary magic trick?
I'm still waiting for the dead to just get up and rock and roll.

Randomhero1982's picture
If God created this heavy

If God created this heavy rock I'd be into him!

What are we talking though? Bon Jovi? Def Leopard?

David Killens's picture
@Randonhero1982

@Randonhero1982

"If God created this heavy rock I'd be into him!

What are we talking though? Bon Jovi? Def Leopard?"

Since god is involved, we must go to Metallica. If it was the devil, we would reference AC/DC.

Jo's picture
@ Southern Atheist

@ Southern Atheist

Welcome from one of those dastardly theist. :-)

Creating a paradox does not prove anything. Here is an example.
Answer this question - Are you still lying?
If you say yes you admit you are continuing to lie.
If you say no you are admitting to previously lying.
But my silly paradox doesn't really say anything about your truthfulness
Just as your question about God does not evidence anything about his nature.

God is not just one dimensional.
While he is omnipotent he is also logical.
So he cannot do something that is illogical.

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