The god paradox

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Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ Royism

@ Royism

Well done. More evasions and attempted justifications where none were necessary. Your excuses for pedophilia and rape of minor children is as obvious as it is sickening.

No one asked for 'historical context'. No one asked for comparative society.
All that was asked that you, as a human and a father, to answer some simple questions. With an affirmative or a negative

You failed in both roles.

You failed in all your answers.

That your religion forces you into taking amoral positions is the danger sign for any who listen to you.
You are capable of excusing any horror, even acts detrimental to your own children by referring to an ancient book and tales told round a camel shit campfire.

It is plainly obvious to any watcher that you are desperately defending the indefensible in the 21st century.

What is terribly sad is that you obviously, and still, ascribe the role of 'property' to your daughter. To be disposed of in a manner you see fit as male 'head of the house'.
That you assume control solely by virtue of your sex over all women without 'guardians"

That is misogyny gone mad.

I have now clearly established exactly what you are. I have my own words for a creature like you, I am sure the audience do as well.

Fin.

ROYISM 's picture
@ Royism

@ Old man shouts

You said: No one asked for 'historical context'. No one asked for comparative society.
All that was asked that you, as a human and a father, to answer some simple questions. With an affirmative or a negative

I have clearly answered what my position as a father. I will NOT get my daughter married at 9.

You said: “What is terribly sad is that you obviously, and still, ascribe the role of 'property' to your daughter. To be disposed of in a manner you see fit as male 'head of the house'.”

If you say that a parent helping his children make a decision is treating them as ‘property’, then I hope you allowed your children to decide which school to go to, what their names would be and so on. Did you? As parents, we do always make decisions and choices for our children… and we do it in their best interest. That’s not because we think they are our property, but because we love them.

You said: “That you assume control solely by virtue of your sex over all women without 'guardians"

Strawman.

NOTE: still waiting for your answers to my questions

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ Rorism

@ Rorism

More evasion. You have answered my questions and proven exactly what you are,

Selling your infant daughter for any type of personal gain is not "helping your children" it is showing, once again a complete lack of morality. Something you have so well demonstrated over the weeks of posts.

“That you assume control solely by virtue of your sex over all women without 'guardians" Strawman.

Your replies to my questions acknowledge you consider female children to be 'property' of any dominant family male, that you dispose of them as you will without reference to their own needs or desires, health or well being.

That is the mark of a misogynist that considers all women less than a male. No straw man argument there. A logical and easy to make step based on your own writing.

Lets go over your answers to my questions one more time so we can all see where you are:

1. Do you think that the marriage of a six year old to a 50 year old man is moral?
Answer: "YES"
2. Do you think the sexual penetration of a nine year old by a 50plus year old man is moral? 'Married' or not?
Your answer: YES
3. Do you think a six year old can give informed consent to sexual acts such as "thighing?"?
Your answer; "YES"
4. Do you think a nine year old can give informed, free consent to full penetrative sex with a 50 year old man?
Your answer "YES"
5. Are there any circumstances that you can explain where such acts are ethical and moral?
Your answer? YES

"a situation like in the medieval age when a pubescent girl has nothing better to do than raise a family… there is nothing unethical in it"

I left out your equivocations, strawmen and evasive replies and cuit to the chase. I am sure I reflect your views based on your answers in the affirmative.

NOTE: When the audience have settled down,and stopped vomiting at your answers, I will answer your non sequitur questions about "age of consent" thoroughly and with reference to my home state which has very laudable laws on its books...and would also have you locked up as a unfit person to be around any child.

.

ROYISM 's picture
@Old Man Shouts

@Old Man Shouts

You said: “Selling your infant daughter for any type of personal gain is not "helping your children"

Just using words like ‘selling’ and so on just demonstrates your strawman fallacy. Where did I ever mention anything about selling my daughter? If arranging a marriage for my daughter is ‘selling’ then any ‘arranged’ marriage must be considered as such.

You said: “…that you dispose of them as you will without reference to their own needs or desires, health or well being.”

I had clearly stated that the parents will have to take decision in the best interest of their children – taking everything factor into consideration. That’s the reason that a specific age for marriage has not been stipulated. Depending on the situation, what is best for the girl will differ. And parents will have to take appropriate decision based on the situation.

You said: “Lets go over your answers to my questions one more time so we can all see where you are:”

Going over the same grind that has already been answered a zillion times does not help your argument much.

You said: “I will answer your non sequitur questions about "age of consent" thoroughly and with reference to my home state which has very laudable laws on its books...”

I hope you don’t just state the law book and say that is your moral authority. I will definitely hold you to account for them objectively.

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ ROYISM

@ ROYISM

If arranging a marriage for my daughter is ‘selling’ then any ‘arranged’ marriage must be considered as such.

Well done, at last you are catching on....

I had clearly stated that the parents will have to take decision in the best interest of their children – taking everything factor into consideration. That’s the reason that a specific age for marriage has not been stipulated. Depending on the situation, what is best for the girl will differ. And parents will have to take appropriate decision based on the situation.

Which as you have stated before includes selling them to a 50 year old in exchange for power and influence....that you consider in the best interests of a six year old.

Going over the same grind that has already been answered a zillion times does not help your argument much.

I can assure you it doesnt help your position at all.

I hope you don’t just state the law book and say that is your moral authority. I will definitely hold you to account for them objectively.

Don't be more of a dick than you can help. My morals and ethics don't come from a book or the stories told round camel dung campfires. That your lack of morals are so apparent is not my fault.

David Killens's picture
@ROYISM

@ROYISM

"What according to you is the appropriate age of consent?"

For me, minimum 18, preferably 21.

Below the age of 18 they are emotionally children, easily manipulated and mistreated. Additionally they need sex education and the ability to emotionally deal with this major life change.

I base my opinion not on how useful girls are to a society as baby factories, but the actual welfare of the child.

There you go ROYISM, this is how one responds to a question. Directly.

ROYISM 's picture
@David Killens

@David Killens
You said: “For me, minimum 18, preferably 21.”
How did you arrive at these figures? What is wrong if a girl has sex at 17 years and 9 months?

You said: “Below the age of 18 they are emotionally children, easily manipulated and mistreated.”

So between a girl who is 17 years and 11 months and a girl who is 18 years, suddenly some big transformation happens that turns a child into an adult. May I know what that magic is?

You said: “Additionally they need sex education and the ability to emotionally deal with this major life change.”

What do you mean by sex education? If you are talking about what is taught in our modern day classrooms, then you would have to dismiss every marriage that happened before the advent of modern education as illicit and immoral.

David Killens's picture
@ROYISM

@ROYISM

"If you are talking about what is taught in our modern day classrooms, then you would have to dismiss every marriage that happened before the advent of modern education as illicit and immoral."

OK, they were illicit and immoral.

You are just splitting hairs with the numbers, I obviously picked a round number. And that estimate was based on the intellectual and emotion health of the victim, oops, the bride. Not the state of her uterus, which seems to be your priority.

ROYISM 's picture
@David Killens

@David Killens

You said: “You are just splitting hairs with the numbers, I obviously picked a round number.”

I thought you were giving me a direct answer. It doesn’t sound very direct. Even if you are giving me a rounded number, that figure must surely have some edges, right? So, at which limit does it become unacceptable?

You said: “And that estimate was based on the intellectual and emotion health of the victim,”

I understand, and that’s why I asked you when exactly does an intellectually and emotionally immature child, turn into an adult decision maker? You said 18 is a rounded figure… and how far does the radius of that circle extend… 17, 16, 14… ?

CyberLN's picture
Royism, what happens when

Royism, what happens when this nine year old girl, who is married by consent of her wise family, becomes pregnant?

A nine year old’s body carries many more risks with child birth than an adult woman. You may want to read up on, say, the frequency of fistulas among young girls who have given birth without the benefit of modern obstetrics. Pay attention to how they are treated once they suffer that fistula.

You say that you find it moral for a nine year old to enter into marriage and raise a family (as long as she has nothing better to do). Understanding how the physiology of a nine year old giving birth dramatically increases risk, is it still as moral? Is that increased risk worth it? Is it ok for a person’s family to expose them to that increased risk?

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ CyberLN

@ CyberLN

Hear hear,

Never mind the much increased risk of cervical cancer noted in those who undertake early sexual activity.

Never mind the psychological damage to the child being treated merely as an 'owned ' object to be pimped and primped for the parents' personal gain.

This is the 21st century. Goat herders' culture have no place in an equitable, safe society.

CyberLN's picture
Well, Old Man, I’m hoping he

Well, Old Man, I’m hoping he missed my questions above rather than just silently refusing to answer them.

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ CyberLN

@ CyberLN

He has a habit,.like many theists, of ignoring questions that show their fake morality in the hard light of facts.

What is the betting he comes back with a request for the actual stats? And then some anecdotal equivocation about how long Aisha lived and other BS?

In Spirit's picture
Hey Tin-man

Hey Tin-man

Whenever you feel like someone is throwing you too many curve balls send them this song....lol

An old Italian favorite of mine but sang in English................SHADDUP YOU FACE...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFacWGBJ_cs

David Killens's picture
Thank you Tin-Man. And who

Thank you Tin-Man. And who can not believe that religion is worse than cancer?

Tin-Man's picture
@David K. Re: "Thank you Tin

@David K. Re: "Thank you Tin-Man. And who can not believe that religion is worse than cancer?"

Well, shucks. Ol' Roy called me a liar... *snapping fingers*... Can't really blame him, though. You know how we sinful atheists cannot be trusted. BUT, if you are interested, please go to Sheldon's thread of "A question for theists..." and start on Page 6 of that thread where the conversation starts between me and him. It should be simple enough to determine the verdict for yourself, and I would be quite happy for any feedback on your findings. Anyway, figured I would run that by you since Roy says I am being dishonest. Unlike some people around here, I actually do care whether or not what I say is accurate... *chuckle*...

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ TM

@ TM

Where human flotsam like Jo and Royism are concerned, the accusation of dishonesty would cause an irony 3 alarm fire in any neighborhood.

Each of them obviously have second jobs as PR for Pastor Pedos and the Political Wing Public Relations for Boko Haram.....I wonder how they sleep as they cannot lie straight in bed.

Maybe they just spend their days opening wine bottles with their screw tops.

Tin-Man's picture
@Old Man Re: "Where human

@Old Man Re: "Where human flotsam like Jo and Royism are concerned, the accusation of dishonesty would cause an irony 3 alarm fire in any neighborhood."

Well, to be honest, and in the interest of full disclosure, most every single thing I ever say is a total lie. And I promise that is the absolute truth.

Oh, wait... Or maybe I'm lying about that. Honestly, I really could be lying about telling the truth. No, no, no... Hold on... Or, uh, am I telling the truth about lying? Aw, hell, I'm so full of shit I don't even know... *throwing hands up in frustration*...

Cognostic's picture
He got a strange feeling in

He got a strange feeling in his pee pee and it came to him in a revelation.

Nyarlathotep's picture
As many others have pointed

As many others have pointed out:

If you know everything, and you created everything: you are the cause of everything.

That leaves no room for freewill, personal responsibility, sin, forgiveness, morality, etc. And of course, the have your cake and eat it too theists we get here will object.

To be fair, it isn't all theists; I know theists who don't endorse these attributes, because they realize those absolute attributes are basically guaranteed to create contradictions. /e It isn't a feature you would want in your religion, if you give a fuck about consistency.

Jo's picture
@ Nyarlathotep

@ Nyarlathotep

Something cannot be created and then given free will?
Are parents responsible for their adult children's actions?
How does knowing equal causing?

Nyarlathotep's picture
Jo - How does knowing equal

Jo - How does knowing equal causing?

Did I say that? No.

It is interesting that you can't even understand the argument. I could understand if you didn't agree with it, but instead you seem incapable of even understanding it. Why do you think that is?

Jo's picture
@ Nyarlathotep

@ Nyarlathotep

"Jo - How does knowing equal causing?

Did I say that? No."

I thought that is what you meant when you said-
"If you know everything, and you created everything: you are the cause of everything."

Nyarlathotep's picture
Jo - I thought that is what

Jo - I thought that is what you meant...

How about this "radical" idea: if I write X, it is safe for you to assume I mean X. Please don't straw-man me by assuming I meant Y.

Cognostic's picture
JO: "Something can be

JO: "Something can be created and then given free will." Holy Shit.... What I mean is more holy shit. Created? What the fuck are you talking about? I went to art class and created a coffee mug out of clay, then I gave it free will. Because I gave it free will, does it have free will? Parents do not "create" children. Do we need a sex education class? How in the fuck did you ever get to causing without the facts or evidence to support it? One blind ignorant assertion after another, Doesn't it get boring repeating the same bullshit creationist crap over and over and over when it all has been debunked for hundreds of years? You can't actually be so ill educated as to actually believe the absolute garbage you are posting.

xenoview's picture
@Jo

@Jo
All parents can do is try to raise their children right. Once they are adults then they are responsible for their own actions and beliefs.

ROYISM 's picture
@Nyarl

@Nyarl

You said: If you know everything, and you created everything: you are the cause of everything.

Yes, God is the cause of free will. But he is not what causes the decisions that comes out of the free will, because free will itself means the exercise of choice by the one using it.

NewSkeptic's picture
..and you don't see the

..and you don't see the logical conflict here? You must and are just blinding yourself to it.

Questions:

1. Does God know what your decisions will be before you make them? It's a simple yes/no.

2. Do you agree that if you answer "yes", your "decisions" are predestined and are not the result of freewill?

3. Do you agree that if you answer "no", then God is not omniscient or omnipotent and such things as prophecy are not possible?

There is no woo allowed, such as "God could know, but he chooses not to." If he "could" know, then it is also predestined as at any time he could choose to know, and by his ability to know, the path is locked-in.

ROYISM 's picture
@New Skeptic

@New Skeptic

Do you agree that if you answer "yes", your "decisions" are predestined and are not the result of freewill?

Why so? If a doctor is certain that a patient would die in 3 days, and the patient does die in 3 days, would you blame the doctor for the death? Did the doctor’s certainty cause the patient’s death?

Tin-Man's picture
Re: "If a doctor is certain

Re: "If a doctor is certain that a patient would die in 3 days, and the patient does die in 3 days, would you blame the doctor for the death?"

....*grooooan*.... *face palm*.... Ugh. I really hate being Captain Obvious here, but the DOCTOR is not all-knowing nor all-powerful, AND (more importantly) the doctor did not create that patient nor the patient's illness.

The analogies are getting worse and worse with each post... *shaking head sadly*...

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