Hobby lobby!!

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Lmale's picture
Hobby lobby!!

This is the reason for me joining ive had it with organised religion getting everything their way.
We should be organised to fight back against ignorance and oppression.
This ruling gives religious rights to businesses how long before Muslim businesses are run by Sharia law? Till Jewish businesses forbid employees to eat pork. Till businesses owned by Christians start discriminating and no one discriminates like christians! Till 7th day adventist businesses ban blood transfusions on their medical plans because its against their religion.
Im generally a live and let live kinda guy but this plus christian fundamentalists from usa getting an anti gay law passed in uganda has pushed me to far.
I thought this was the 21st century thought wed evolved past this. This has staggering potential for damage could theoretically lead to riots and possibly a war.

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Lmale's picture
Hobby lobby has in essence

Hobby lobby has in essence used the law to force their views on their employees and save the firm money despite the fact they profit off the drugs they banned.

freethinker's picture
It is not so much Hobby

It is not so much Hobby Lobby it is our extreme SCOTUS conservative male members...The only sane ones are the female members....Until the ultra conservative males die or resign (highly unlikely) we are all in for a rough ride.....

firebolt's picture
Did anyone else catch this?

Did anyone else catch this? Freethinker, it's not a male or female thing. There are just as many conservative females running the show in government and they are no different from their male counterparts when it comes to religion and the choices made in the name of it.

Lmale's picture
I think hes refering to the

I think hes refering to the fact the male supreme justices outnumbered the female and so far hobby lobby ruling only applys to womens healthcare hobby lobby still provide vasectomy and viagra on their healthplan can you say hypocrisy lol!!????
Problem is the rulings a little wedge federally funded 'christian' charities have already apealed to use the ruling to ban the discrimination that prevents them from not hiring gays because of their sexual orientation.
I really am beginning to feel the definition of christian should be changed to read the most immoral.

firebolt's picture
Thank you for that! I was

Thank you for that! I was starting to get concerned there for a minute! :)

Travis Paskiewicz's picture
It's good economics, the'd be

It's good economics, the'd be giving away free drugs if they paid for the drugs they produce, so their employees can utilize them. Also, they're shitty, hypocritical, people.

Lmale's picture
Yep their shitty scam they

Yep their shitty scam they are involved in making the drugs they banned on religious grounds so why make them?
But the scams set legal precedence other firms can use and abuse it. Doom and gloom ahead.
On a lighter note Starbucks will likely declare itself a religion and say paying taxes are against their religion lol.

DesolateProphet's picture
The modern Christian

The modern Christian fundamentalist is a real danger to a peaceful society. This is going to dredge up the old religious hatreds. Baptist think that the Pope is the anti-Christ. So, now, in addition to what you pointed out, we are going to have Christian sects denying services to others. I can see a future employment listing reading: no Catholics, Jews, blacks, or women need to apply.

This is more about politics than their religion. They don't have a problem buying from China. A country that oppresses religious freedoms. They can't say that the a one child policy doesn't violate their religious beliefs, but they still buy from China. I can't confirm, but I read somewhere that previously Hobby Lobby's health care covered the same items that were mandated by law. If true, just more proof of hypocrisy and a desire for politic power.

Lmale's picture
I posted this forum a while

I posted this forum a while ago unfortunatly i have been proved right. Christian federal charities have applied to use the ruling to ban gays. No one discriminates more than a friggin christian.
Also 80 other companies have applied to have the hobby law. It was obvious they would it saves the business money.
I havent heard anything about what the medical insurance companies think after all it affects them more than the business they insure.
I just cant see how a businesses 'religious rights' could possibly outweigh all their employees rights.
I posted a really good article about this on my facebook page only one person commented. People arent really seeing the potential for disaster but i do.

CyberLN's picture
This is a far more dense

This is a far more dense issue, with many more questions at stake than may appear on the surface.

I'll start by saying I do not, and never will shop at hobby lobby, nor will I ever shop at a number of other businesses because I vehemently disagree with their tenets. That being said, I'm not convinced there should be legislation to force them to contradict those tenets. Hobby lobby is closed on Sundays for religious reasons. Should that also be challenged?

Hobby lobby is not a publicly traded company. It was started by and still fully owned by people who hold certain beliefs. Employees enter into what could be described as a contract, to work for those people at that business in exchange for a paycheck. Once working there, I'm not convinced that the employees have a right to dictate everything the company does. This may be one of those things. I'm just not convinced it isn't.

It is something I'm spending time thinking about because I hold our U.S. constitutionally protected rights so dearly. We have freedom of and from religion and this case is one of those that challenges this from so many perspectives. It's a big deal.

There are a ton of folks who support hobby lobby and a ton who don't. Is it better for the general public to force, via legislation, owners to behave according to their will, or make their statements by spending their money there or elsewhere?

I absolutely think there should be laws protecting workers for certain things. Safe working conditions, etc.

The whole saving $ thing that Lmale brings up, tho, doesn't completely wash. From a health insurance perspective, and from a staffing perspective, it costs insurance companies and businesses a whole heck of a lot more to support pregnancy, delivery, and medical child care that paying for birth control pills.

I am employed by a company that does thing with which I sometimes do not agree. It is their right to do these things. As an employee, is it my *right* to force them to change? If there becomes a tipping point in that dis/agreement, guess what? I quit and find employment somewhere more suitable to me.

IMO, they are fundie freaks. IMO they have a right to be so. They have not forced their fundie-ness down my throat as I can choose not the shop or be employed there.

Will it all spiral out of control as Desolate fears? I don't know, none of us does. From an historical perspective, the human race has matured. My hope is that we will not backslide for any substantive length of time. It is precisely issues like this that provide the fodder for that maturation.

Apologies for the rambling nature of this post...I've still some cogitating to do one this one.

Lmale's picture
You erred on one part by

You erred on one part by assuming that because their medical insurance dosent cover it they will say oh i better have the baby no they will pay from their own pocket and the firms know that.
IF, and i stress if because i hope this gets undone, this continues then any company using this law must add the religion to their business name so people know which to avoid.
Dont forget this law can be used to discriminate and indeed some federally funded christian charities have already applied to ban gays.
How can that be tolerated. If we really had matured religion would be relegated to fairytale not a weapon used against non believers.

CyberLN's picture
I did not err by inferring

I did not err by inferring any such thing. I made no assumptions. I merely said that pregnancy, delivery, and well baby care cost more than birth control pills. It was a counter to your argument that not paying for birth control pills was about saving money for this company. I don't think it is. If they want everyone who has sex to procreate, they will depend far more for that than they would for pills preventing it.

Lmale's picture
They dont 'want them to

They dont 'want them to procreate' thats a fallisy to cover them wanting to save money. We can easily prove it make them donate the money to charities that specialise in helping young mothers.

Zaphod's picture
4 things to say about Hobby

4 things to say about Hobby Lobby

The monies intended for health care are supposed be a part of wages. This means this would be what the person has earned. If a company does not have to pay full wages this gives them a competitive edge over other companies. there should be a set amount the goes to healthcare it should then be up to the person who receives it what they do with it considering they earned it.

This whole thing could be cleared up if instead of giving funds toward birth control the Companies that were against paying for birth control enough extra was given to employees pay to afford going out and getting it themselves. Once again this would make it up to the person using it how the money was spent as it would give them cash in hand. They could choose to use on other things besides birth control, however it would also make birth control for everyone else likely a little more expensive.

The whole heath care thing should be ran so the people getting it are given a budget with witch to spend money on medical needs this should include money for surgery, doctors visits, medications ect... each year expenses could roll over into the next year so this way the doctors could get paid. Once again this would make it so everything would be more expensive as things would only be purchased as they were needed instead of insuring a person in case it's is. Or we could do it like some countries have and just totally socialize the Health car system entirely removing insurance companies from the equation all together. Sometimes doing something halfway is worse than not doing anything at all.

Finally, If they can get out of a national requirement to pay for birth control when everyone else is required to based on their religious belief, can someone then as a tax payer deduct the amount of taxes as a percentage of governmental spending spent on anything that would stand against their beliefs from their income taxes or would we need a church and religion to be able to get away with that. I think this topic in particular hints at the chaos that can ensue if we let this goes through and I think should in fact ensue if we do. It would create the biggest tax loophole ever.

Lmale's picture
I did mention starbucks will

I did mention starbucks will likely start a religion that says tax is a sin lol
Giving people money fir medical expences in usa is bad idea with what the extortinists charge the amount would be so high that many individuals would be tempted to spend it.

Zaphod's picture
I think the whole health care

I think the whole health care thing is a bad idea. if we were going to try and make universal health care in the US we should have went the whole way and socialized it . The way it is set up now is only going to make the insurance companies richer. The way things are run now way Doctors forced to itemize everything and the insurance companies try to get out of everything so now with everyone forced to pay in it makes it so the Insurance companies just have more clients. My insurance company is trying to walk on about 16-17000 in medical expenses because of some thing one of my doctors wrote, it's a nightmare. We would have been better off just cutting out the middle men and fully socializing it than to try and go with this bi-partisan half way attempt. It would have been better to cut the insurance companies out entirely and just run it through the government. With the way things are now we were better off the old way.

firebolt's picture
Hey, let's leave Starbucks

Hey, let's leave Starbucks out of this! :)
I hadn't heard any of this about Hobby Lobby until just now. How can companies get away with this? Do people need a job that bad that they would stay with this kind of company?

Lmale's picture
Fraid so unrmployments really

Fraid so unrmployments really bad in america places like wallmart can pay so little their employess need charity for food.

Lmale's picture
Agreed. Imho healthcare food

Agreed. Imho healthcare food water and shelter are fundamental human rights. Besides britain is proof that free healthcare works.
Believe me if i lived in uk not only would my life suck as it already does but id also likely be in debt for the rest of it and beyond.

Zaphod's picture
The problem with the UK is

The problem with the UK is they put caps on everything a doctor can charge while working for their socialized health care they also in order to keep your license as a doctor make it so you have to put in so many hours each year working for really cheap government rates. I see this happening in the US's future as well, this makes it so its more lucrative for doctors to go overseas so doctors who are good enough do, resulting in a shortage of doctors in the UK. On the plus side in the UK some doctors instead of having you wait around make home visits when they can get around to you.

I prefer the way Canada does it when compared to England. In Canada they have socialized medicine they also do not have as many restrictions as have been created in the US where much testing has been done by companies trying to skew results for profit and lobbying AKA bribing officials so certain things are allowed and certain things are not all in the name of capitalism at the expense of the people and their health . Overall going to a doctor there getting surgery done or getting prescription medications is easier and cheaper there. For this reason many people in America go to Canada to get medical work done.

In Canada they have much more information online about ways diagnose to and treat things on your own. If you ever have a problem they say you can't treat or get taken care of in the US look toward Canada. The information they make available to the public to help you diagnose and treat things on your own helps people to keep overall cost down not just for the individual but for the nation as a whole.

Doctoryourself.com is a great site to visit though its set up by a guy I think lives in NY named Andrew W. Saul, it links to many Canadian studies and their findings. Also if your worried about dental stuff In the UK and I'm not picking on the UK here, its just I heard there are often long waits for available dentist, there is a doctor named Dr. Spiller in the US who has an IMHO awesome site doctorspiller.com that has helped me be able to understand diagnose and treat many of my dental problems over the years. I have literally sent this guy thank you notes.

Lmale's picture
Lol i have no teeth

Lol i have no teeth combination of sweet tooth and really bad dentist.
Yea the restrictions are tight but it keeps the taxpayers from having to spend too much. Your charges are rediculous like hundreds of dollars for jello what did they do fly it in firstclass lol

Zaphod's picture
No the reason the Jello is so

No the reason the Jello is so expensive is it's made from the hoofs of Unicorns! JK

Yeah doctors here charge exorbitant amounts just to cover the cost of other things insurance companies refuse to cover. for example insurance companies put caps on certain procedures and debate over or say they will not pay for this or that like the amount of bandages and dressings used. Many high charges you see are made to make up for things insurance companies won't shell out for.

Lmale's picture
Wow thats evil. Yep obama

Wow thats evil. Yep obama should have gone all in and copied our nhs would be chaos at first but think best for all concerned except the insurance companies but they are evil so fk em.

Zaphod's picture
Hillary would have done

Hillary would have done better with her plan and with making it happen, Obama let the House push him around to much. Their plan as stated from day one was only to thwart his. He should have pushed back harder. Done wrong its worse than to have never been done at all. But in the end Hillary's plan would have been better, she would have actually made a better president all around.

Lmale's picture
You cant blame obama for

You cant blame obama for practically anything the republicans refuse to let him do anything and at the same time moan when he does nothing because they stopped him or he uses an executive order so they sue.
I dont buy Hillary being better if the republicans get into power the non christians are going to be bitchfucked and after that common people will be made to pay more tax while businesses get to pay none or very little.
Theyve gone batshit crazy and decided fuck the common americans.

CyberLN's picture
Just what does your term

Just what does your term 'bitchfucked' mean, Lmale?

Lmale's picture
Up the proverbial canyon

Up the proverbial canyon without a paddle.

CyberLN's picture
Then why don't you say that

Then why don't you say that instead of something that sounds so derogatory?

Lmale's picture
What they will do is going to

What they will do is going to be derogatory so the word i used is suited to my point.

CyberLN's picture
I wasn't very clear. It

I wasn't very clear. It sounds derogatory to women.

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