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Well you caught me in a good mood so I'm going to help you out today Jo. You claim you're recieving ad hominem attacks from us? Well OK, I'm going to help make that true:
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@ Jo
If you look at the post I made that you are referring to, you will notice that part of text of that post is a different color than the rest. See, on the internet, text colored like that indicates it is a "hyperlink". So juggle your little mouse cursor (or the touch screen on your Fischer Price phone) over that weirdly colored text and you'll discover that it takes you to another webpage. And golly gee willikers; I'll be damned if it isn't the page you just asked me for! Hopefully; in the future, you'll be smart enough to not ask for information you were just given.
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There; now at least your claims of being subjected ad hominem attacks is now true.
@ Nyarlathotep
On my screen it is more bold than the rest. It is not a different color.
When I put my cursor over the words nothing happens. Clicking them doesn't work either.
Is it the browser I am using (Chrome).
My mommy says I am not old enough for a Fisher Price phone.
I don't believe that you don't know how to use a link on a website, considering you've posted links here, recently! You aren't fooling anyone.
@ Nyarlathotep
I submit to the jury this evidence that this person is now a troll.
I agree Jo likely writes stuff just to get a response, but I will admit on first pass even I missed Nyarlathotep's link.
But then I would not go make a long post accusing someone they did not do something without double checking first... Or at the very least I would go back and edit my post and apologize once I discovered what I missed.
But can we expect that from Jo? Not holding my breath.
@ Nyarlathotep
I know how to use a website link. But yours did not work as a link on my computer.
Maybe I am doing something wrong, or it is the browser I am using.
@Jo Re: "Please give specific instances, and explain how those instances were dishonest... Because you like humor and sarcasm, I ask. How do you, and others, know my motives and state of mind, with such certainty?"
Awww... Gee, really? C'mon now, Jo. Again, you are making this way too easy. Just the simple fact that you asked me to give you "specific instances" of your dishonesty is a prime example of your dishonesty right there. I'm pretty sure others here would agree that there have already been countless times when more than one member here has pointed out specific points of your dishonest behavior in multiple posts. And, as is extremely evident, you never care to pay attention to them when it happens. Yep, you rank right up there with good ol' JoC when it comes to conveniently ignoring and/or side-stepping issues that are "inconvenient" to your chosen faith.
In the interest of humoring you just a bit in this matter, here is a quick little example. I have totally lost track of how many times I have made mention of the fact that your behavior on here is such that it could easily turn others away from your god. (And probably has, as a matter of fact.) And I know I was raised and taught that he whose actions/words cast shadows of doubt over the minds of others that cause them to turn away from god has committed a far greater sin than any other. Matter of fact, I have even applauded you in your "undercover" efforts to promote a positive view of atheism and to shed light on the detrimental effects of religion. Yet, after all of this time, I have not once seen a response from you addressing that matter. And, quite frankly, I really do not expect you to face it this time either. That's okay, though, because JoC has also never bothered to respond to that interesting little bit of trivia. Hmmmm.... Speaking of JoC, it's funny how we never see you two in the same place together... *scratching chin in contemplation*.... *speaking to self*... (Naaaaah... That's just silly... *waving hand in dismissal*...)
Oh, real quick, there is one more thing that might interest you, since you mentioned my humor and sarcasm. Just in case you haven't figured it out yet, I am a bullshitter. I enjoy bullshitting. I am full of shit, and I have to regularly keep it venting in a controlled manner so as not to accidentally spew shit all over the place and make a mess all over innocent people. Keep in mind, I have not always been a bullshitter. Alas, it does not come naturally to me. I actually had to work very hard over the years to achieve this lofty level of the bullshitter craft. And while I may not consider myself a master of the trade quite yet (always more to learn), I do at least take pride in being considerably above average in the arena of bullshitting. Therefore, as a natural result of all those long years of developing my skills, I have also become incredibly adept at DETECTING shit. Granted, I may not ALWAYS be able to determine exactly WHAT TYPE of shit I detect, because - like you said - reading minds and motives (especially on an internet chat site) is just not possible. After all, there are so many forms of shit out there. Bullshit, horse shit, bird shit, pig shit, dog shit, fucking bullshit, fucking dog shit, crocks of shit, shits and giggles, and so on and so on and so on... However, regardless of my inability to accurately pinpoint exactly the type of shit each and every time, that doesn't really matter. It is enough most of the time to merely be able to detect that there IS some form of shit in areas others might miss. And, ironically enough, I have discovered I am much better at DETECTING shit than I am at bullshitting. Just in case you were interested... *shrugging shoulders*...
@ Tin-Man
"Just the simple fact that you asked me to give you "specific instances" of your dishonesty is a prime example of your dishonesty right there."
So if someone is accused of being dishonest, and they ask for the specific instance when the were dishonest, that is proof of their dishonesty?
If I accuse you of being dishonest, and you ask when, does that indicate you are dishonest?
"reading minds and motives (especially on an internet chat site) is just not possible."
I agree, but isn't that exactly what you and others are doing?
"I have totally lost track of how many times I have made mention of the fact that your behavior on here is such that it could easily turn others away from your god. (And probably has, as a matter of fact.) And I know I was raised and taught that he whose actions/words cast shadows of doubt over the minds of others that cause them to turn away from god has committed a far greater sin than any other. Matter of fact, I have even applauded you in your "undercover" efforts to promote a positive view of atheism and to shed light on the detrimental effects of religion. Yet, after all of this time, I have not once seen a response from you addressing that matter. And, quite frankly, I really do not expect you to face it this time either."
I did not respond for two reasons.
1. It was not a question, just an attack.
2. Because what you meant as an insult or condemnation, was actually a complement and a confirmation.
If I was causing the Theists on this site to become Atheists.
And if I was unintentionally encouraging Atheism.
I think that you would have not clued me in.
You would have allowed me to continue, uninformed at what was really going on.
So what is a more plausible explanation?
Perhaps you are concerned that it is the opposite of what you say.
And so you try to stop me by insulting or condemning me.
@ Jo
If I was causing the Theists on this site to become Atheists.
And if I was unintentionally encouraging Atheism.
I think that you would have not clued me in.
You would have allowed me to continue, uninformed at what was really going on.
So what is a more plausible explanation?
Perhaps you are concerned that it is the opposite of what you say.
And so you try to stop me by insulting or condemning me.
Oh you are so right Jo. Your carefully worded arguments, your acceptance of error when you have been demonstrably wrong. Your gracious acceptance of historical fact in the face of your wishful, false beliefs fill us all with admiration.
I am sure every lurker on this site is filled with admiration and the Holy Spirit ( or vodka at least) when you so easily demolish factual arguments from atheists. When you clearly demonstrate the causal effects of a creator on the earth and the other worlds. Your grasp of logic is enough to convert me on the spot so firmly rooted in observable phenomena....truly a wonder Jo. It is because of you that there is a spike in church attendance worldwide, all chanting "Jo, Jo sent us" " show us how the "Apostles Live on in Faith"
Tin Man you are so wrong about Jo. Lo, for he is revealed as a paragon, the pillar of integrity and truth that all should heed save they lose their souls to whichever evil one Jo is frightened of this week.
I shall now trot off to my local peadophile protection instiitute ( Hillsong Pentecostal) funded on the personal instruction of our beloved leader and join in, Clapping, shouting, singing and speaking gibberish to impress the neighbours. Thank you Jo.
*sigh*
@Jo Re: "If I accuse you of being dishonest, and you ask when, does that indicate you are dishonest?" (And everything that followed.)
...*deeeep breath*.... *holding hands to ribcage area*.... Ow!... Owie-owie-owie... Cramps... *tears streaming down face*... Sorry, Jo. Hold on a sec.... *another deep breath*... *snortle-snerkle*.... *fanning face with both hands*... Oh, no... No-no-no-no-no... Not again... *squinching eyes shut tightly*... *holding breath until moment passes*... *loud exhale*... Phew! Okay... okay... I think I'm good now... *folding arms across stomach*... Owwwwww.... Gonna feel THAT tomorrow. Oh-dear-lord, Jo, I haven't laughed like that in quite awhile. Been trying to regain my composure for several minutes now so that I could get on here to finally reply. Gotta hand it to you, dude. I think you may have outdone yourself with that post. Lord-have-mercy, that was hilarious! Really, I'm not sure whether I should be impressed or jealous... *chuckle*... Anyway, enough of my bragging about your comedic skills. You might get delusions of grandmanure and start thinking you can take my place around here. Still, I do have to give credit where credit is due... *tipping hat respectfully*... Uh, so, where was I?... Oh, yes... Your remark about dishonesty... (Hopefully I can make it through this post without falling into another fit of uncontrolled laughter. Wish me luck...)
If you and multiple other people have repeatedly told me multiple times in multiple ways over a period of several months EXACTLY how I have been dishonest, then, YES, I would absolutely be one of the biggest dishonest assholes within the northern hemisphere if I had the balls and audacity to ask an accuser to indicate when/how I was dishonest. Nice try, though. But thanks for playing. Be sure to stop by the bathroom before you leave and retrieve your consolation prize from the toilet.
Re: "I did not respond for two reasons. 1. It was not a question, just an attack. 2. Because what you meant as an insult or condemnation, was actually a complement and a confirmation."
Attack???... *puzzled look*... How is it an "attack" to point out to somebody where/how they are fucking up on something? Personally, I would be very appreciative to somebody if he/she were to point out to me something I was doing seriously wrong, even if I might not like the fact I am wrong. Case in point, I am quite confident that if I started spewing a bunch of malignant lies and other such bullshit on here that puts atheism in a bad light, I would have my ass pounced on in an instant by most every regular atheist here. And rightfully so. Hell, man, I was simply trying to do you a favor. But - hey - if you want to continue walking around with your fly open and your twigs-n-berries on display for all to see, then be my guest... *shrugging shoulders*...
(Oh-lordy-Jesus... *giggle*... This next part is gonna be tough... *chortle*... Gonna have to try extra hard to avoid another laughing fit on this one.... *deeeeeep calming breath*...)
Re: "If I was causing the Theists on this site to become Atheists. And if I was unintentionally encouraging Atheism. I think that you would have not clued me in. You would have allowed me to continue, uninformed at what was really going on. So what is a more plausible explanation? Perhaps you are concerned that it is the opposite of what you say. And so you try to stop me by insulting or condemning me."
Ah-HAH! Dammit! You are smarter than I gave you credit for, dear man. The ol' "Triple-Double-Sideways-Feint-To-The-Front-Reverse-Upside-Down-Inside-Out-Of-Bounds-Fake-Fumble-No-Do-Overs" psychology tactic. Shit! I was really hoping you wouldn't catch that! Most people would fall for it without even knowing what hit them. Not YOU, though. No-siree. You are far too clever and crafty to be outwitted by such a ploy. My diabolical plan has been foiled!... CURSES!... *shaking fist angrily at sky*... And I would have gotten away with it, too, had it not been for those meddling kids and that dog!.... *snerkle-snort*.... Oh, no... *schnortle*... Oh, no-no-no... *chortle-snarkle-snort*.... Excuse me. Gotta go... *running away down hallway toward the exit*... *maniacal laughter fading away in the distance*...
@ Tin-Man
Have I answered all your questions?
Is there anything else you think I have avoided addressing?
Any specific way I have not been honest with you?
You just seem interested in snarky sarcasm as a way to mock.
That is another reason why I sometimes do not respond to your posts.
I am not interested in spending my time responding to ridicule.
@Joe Re: "You just seem interested in snarky sarcasm as a way to mock. That is another reason why I sometimes do not respond to your posts."
...*blushing*... Awwww shucks, Jo. You say the sweetest things. Are you trying to butter me up for something?.. *playfully suspicious look*... Well, if so, I hate to disappoint, but flattery will get you nowhere with me. Dinner and a movie, at minimum. Don't bother with flowers or jewelry, either. Can't stand either of those. Just a few pointers if you are interested. Anyway...
Surely you have been here long enough to know about Tin-Man's Butterknife and Cog's Shovel. I am only using the tools at my disposal as effectively as possible whenever appropriate. In your case, I am using my butterknife to counter YOUR nonsense with my own brand of nonsense. Sadly for you, my nonsense actually makes sense. Plus, MY nonsense is FAR more entertaining than yours. As for Cog's Shovel, I have been putting it to use clearing away as much of your bullshit as I can in an effort to prevent others from having to step in it. Wouldn't want visitors thinking we live in some sort of pig sty around here.
Re: "I am not interested in spending my time responding to ridicule."
Thank you, Captain Obvious. Because anybody with two or more functioning brain cells can easily see you would much rather spend your time spreading the nonsense and bullshit that CAUSES the ridicule you receive. Oh, one more thing real quick. I play dumb much more convincingly than you do. Keep trying, though. Practice makes perfect... *grin*...
@ Jo
"If I was causing the Theists on this site to become Atheists.
And if I was unintentionally encouraging Atheism.
I think that you would have not clued me in.
You would have allowed me to continue, uninformed at what was really going on."
It saddens me knowing that you hold this perspective, that this forum is just about one side "winning".
Yes, for sure I believe my opinions are correct concerning the god question. And you have the right to hold to and express your beliefs. So when two parties with diametrically opposed positions meet and exchange dialogue, what do they do, what are their goals?
Mine is very simple, a search for the truth. Not what people believe, but the truth. There are many tools available that assist a person to strive closer to the truth, such as epistemology, science, and the simple ct of examining the evidence. Why were you asked so many times to provide proof or evidence?
It was not about grasping a "gotcha" moment for a temporary victory (which is what this post you created is all about) but the simple act of requesting evidence or proof on a claim.
@ David Killens
I was responding to TM because he asked me to.
It was him that posited it as "one side winning". Not me.
It was not me who framed it that way.
Why did you only make a negative judgment on my response?
Didn't you test me in the past?
Isn't that the epitome of "gotcha"?
This post is not about gotcha, on my part.
It is about what I see as the paucity of Atheism.
Self identifying by what you do not believe?
You don't see how vapid that is?
At least a theist posits a comprehensive answer.
Not just waiting for someone else to provided sufficient evidence to them.
"Why were you asked so many times to provide proof or evidence?"
That is a gotcha questions.
I have explained this previously on numerous occasions.
It goes like this - ask someone for proof to something they believe, when the answer cannot be proven.
Then use that lack of proof as proof that they are wrong.
I have given my arguments, reasons, and evidence for my belief, on numerous occasions.
I have done some of that on this post. I will be glad to do it again.
Have you provided proof and evidence of what you believe?
Is there proof and evidence for naturalism?
How about for Agnosticism?
Do you ask for proof and evidence from those who believe there is no God?
When the subject of God is being discussed.
And you only ask one of the debaters for proof and evidence.
Does that betray a bias or an attempt at gotcha?
Do you ask everyone for proof and evidence, or just theists?
@ Jo
"Why were you asked so many times to provide proof or evidence?"
That is a gotcha questions.
I have explained this previously on numerous occasions.
It goes like this - ask someone for proof to something they believe, when the answer cannot be proven.
Then use that lack of proof as proof that they are wrong."
Yes, if one makes a claim and then cannot provide any proof or evidence, they should have never come into this theist forum and made claims. But when faced with deciding whether to be honest and admitting zero proof or silence, one is being honest and one is being dishonest in their decisions and actions.
Geez Jo, did it never cross your mind when you decided to join this forum that someone would hold your feet to the fire and demand proof? I do not think you are that stupid. I recall on your first showing here, in fact you were well prepared. So what? Were you prepared from the very beginning to be dishonest?
@ Jo
"It was not a mathematical statement, mathematical formula, or even an actual number."
Actually Jo, this is definitely a math problem, including probabilities. The odds of flipping a coin 100 times, and getting 100 heads is 1/2^100 = 1/1.2676506 × 1030. But each flip has a 50/50 chance of coming up heads.
@ David Killens
Thanks for the explanation. You are a lot better at math than I am.
But I was trying to make an argument, not come up with some exact number.
This is hilarious, especially after just asking for evidence of your dishonesty.
He'll never get it, watch...
Jo, if I flip a coin 99 times and heads come up 99 times, what are the odds I will get heads on the hundredth coin toss? Is it the same as the odds of getting heads 100 times in succession? If not why not? Why don't the odds against heads increase with each coin toss? Or maybe you think they do?
If he gets that I will be amazed, if he understands what this means in the context of his facile claim about improbable events happening through happenstance, then I'll donate a weeks wages to charity.
@ Jo
"I find it extremely difficult to believe that everything that has happened from the big bang to this discussion, was all just some happy happenstance."
Take a glass of water and hold it over your head. Tip the cup on it's side. The water will follow the natural laws of gravity and fluid dynamics and your head will be wet. This is similar to the evolution of this known universe from the first instant of the rapid expansion.Physicists have roughly determined the conditions during the rapid expansion, and just like the water on your head, natural laws, such as gravity caused other events, which resulted in the galaxies, stars, planets, and elements on such celestial bodies.
You are arguing from a position of incredulity and ignorance. If you take some time and learn physics, maybe you can dispel a lot of your self-imposed ignorance.
And it was never about the number of flips, there has been a lot. But for every star and galaxy out there, there is a cause that can be explained by natural processes. In my opinion, the creation of intelligent life may be a chance event. But proof is many millennium away (if at all). Who knows, but for one chance event, we could be waving our tentacles and speaking squid. But our ancestors were the lucky ones, they survived when Neanderthals did not. Well, technically because the odds are extremely high you have one to two percent Neanderthal DNA in you.
I can explain why you (most likely) have Neanderthal DNA in you, while your bible can not.
@David Killens
Where did the "natural laws" come from? What do laws suggest?
You are only describing causality, not agency.
The more I know about science the more I see how complicated and interdependent the universe is.
That is not incredulity or ignorance.
One extremely complicated and interdependent event after another. Times a gazillion.
Somehow the big bang "happened" before there was time.
It expanded into space before there was any.
It was smaller than an atom before the big bang, but contained everything in the universe.
It was infinitely dense and infinitely hot. How can anything natural be infinite?
I probably don't have it exactly right, but it sure sounds like creation to me.
You could make the same argument with life concurring.
The same with intelligent life, free will, consciousnesses, and so on.
Sure sounds like something more than a happy happenstance to me.
If you say that a claim that it couldn't have all happened by chance, is an argument from incredulity.
Than you should also say that a claim that it had to all happen without God, is also an argument from incredulity.
I am not saying that I can't believe it could not have all happened by chance.
I am saying that the most believable explanation to me is that it did not.
Why would the Bible say anything about Neanderthal DNA.
Is it a scientific work on genetics?
Jo, you've been making that silly analogy with coin flips. Well guess what? Coin flips are independent. When things are independent, when you increase the number of events, you decrease the probability. When things are interdependent, then it is much more complicated; and you can't not rely on your assumptions that it makes the probability go down, it can make it go up.
And your wanting to appeal to some philosophical argument and not mathematics, while you continue to appeal to probability and probability magnitudes, is kind of disturbing.
@ Nyarlathotep
Yes, you are right about independent and interdependent.
Is this better?
The number of independent events that had to occur in the universe for intelligent life to occur, makes that event highly unlikely to have occurred, solely by chance.
The inter-dependency of of so many independent events occurring in the universe for intelligent life to occur, makes it highly improbable that it was just do to chance.
No one (not you, and not me) have any idea how many that is... If it is 2 independent events, or millions or more. The only reason I can think of that might lead you to believe it is large, is that it seems your religion demands it.
---------------------------------------------------
That is non-sense. It's like talking about a square circle. It suggests you don't know what those words mean.
@ Nyarlathotep
"In order for you to exist, a great many unlikely events needed to unfold in exactly the way that they did."
https://www.forbes.com/sites/startswithabang/2017/05/16/the-odds-of-your...
The article mentions the Bayes Theorem, that you probably can understand exponentially more than I do.
@Jo
That is the Texas sharpshooter fallacy.
Also you wouldn't use Bayes Theorem for coin tosses. It is for calculating the probability of B happening, given that A has already happened.
@ Nyarlathotep
How did I move the target?
@Jo
What are the chances that every hair on my head happens to be the exact length that it is? Pretty low. But if my hair had turned out differently, you could still make the same argument. You're selecting one outcome and assuming it is special.
@ Jo
"The number of independent events that had to occur in the universe for intelligent life to occur, makes that event highly unlikely to have occurred, solely by chance."
My impression is that you are operating under the belief that there is a "goal". There may be predicted results (collect enough hydrogen together and you get a star, for example) but the interactions that produce the results are not designed to give predicted results.
In the end it is one big lottery game. Some stars formed too large, some to small. Some planets are too large, some too close to their sun, or possibly bathed in lethal radiation from a nearby celestial body. Some planets do not have the correct chemical makeup, some (for example Mars) do not have a magnetic field strong enough to retain an atmosphere. Of all the billions of billions of stars and our sole planet, we got lucky, we are existing in a environment that allows life to be created and prosper.
Our human arrogance is a survival tool, it can serve us well in times of stress and hardship. But that arrogance also leads us to false conclusions. At one time humans believed that their little tribe was the center of the entire cosmos. Then that perception shifted to humans believing this earth was the absolute center. Further scientific discoveries established that our planet revolved around our sun, and thus our position as being in the center of the cosmos was destroyed. So it was accepted that the sun was the center of everything until more scientific research established that our sun was just a little star in the Milky Way Galaxy. And eventually more scientific research established that our Milky way galaxy was not alone, it was not the center of everything.
We are the lucky ones, we arrived at the correct conditions, we hit the lottery.
Have you ever heard of Gloria MacKenzie, or Mavis Wanczyk, or Cindy and Mark Hill? Those are three of the biggest Powerball lottery winners. Predicting ahead of time that those specific three would win is a reach in the odds, which are almost impossible.
But the point is that someone won the lottery, that sole event was inevitable.
@ Jo
"Somehow the big bang "happened" before there was time.
It expanded into space before there was any.
It was smaller than an atom before the big bang, but contained everything in the universe.
It was infinitely dense and infinitely hot. How can anything natural be infinite?"
The term "big bang" is shunned by respected physicists, the term "rapid expansion" is the one they use.
For our local observable universe, time and space began at the instant of rapid expansion. What happened before is pure conjecture, no one knows. No one knows.
At the instant of the rapid expansion, what became our universe was pure energy and heat. After the rapid expansion, the universe went through an evolution in energy, the primordial energy from the rapid expansion was converted to other forms of energy, and from that matter. Approximately 100 billion years after the rapid expansion gravity finally had an effect, and the first stars were born, then galaxies heavier element,s and other suns.
Why are you claiming "infinity"? I am not claiming such, and the scientific community is not either. So please prove infinite time.
IMO what I just offered is a lot simpler and less of a stretch in credulity than an invisible, very powerful entity that created this universe out of nothing, is obsessed with genitalia and desires a race of underlings that will do nothing but worship and praise this insecure being.
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