I’m Christian, AMA
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Yes you are replying to the wrong poerson...I asked some very simple questions about your belief, and followed up one of your unevidenced assertions with the question "How do you know?".
I have not had an answer yet.
However this is an atheist debate room, we often get theists breeze in here demanding special attention for their beliefs, and, once asked the basic questions (that they are unable to answer) flounce out in high dudgeon.
You at least appear to have some honesty in that you clearly agree that only your "personal revelation" evidences your version of a god.
As you know that is not evidence at all. That is personal experience and that is all. A story, a claim, a fantasy.
You are very welcome to love your personally revealed god, but you must understand if you start taking it out and playing with it in front of children we will complain,and try and have you arrested, if you stick it in our faces we will deride you. We WILL ask for evidence, we WILL ask the hard questions. You came here and wanted to talk about something most ofus simply do not believe in.
You might as well talk about Eric the Rainbow Farting Unicorn that lives in my Garage. Until I evidence his existence he just a story I made up in my head.
That is not bullying, that is questioning an uninvited person's claims.
As it happens I am happy to talk about your experience with you. so talk. Why do you believe in this 'god' of yours?
@Old man shouts ...
Where did you see the honesty? "It's all subjective but I want to find out anyway." She has answered the why she believes question 5 times. "I have no evidence but I just do." " I don't want to talk about that, let me wriggle around an politely escape." Okay, I agree she is more polite than "Searching for Truth. Catholicguy, or some of the others but it IS the same ole BULLSHIT. It's mushroom speak.
At least she admits that all she has is personal conviction. That is the only card theists, in truth, do have. I know we agree on that Cog! I would put it as the two of clubs in ranking terms but....believers gonna believe.
Old man shouts ...
That is the Argument From Personal Experience. Not only does she use the argument but refuses to discuss it. This places her in the realm of the presuppositionalist. God is real because he is real, it is an a-priori assumption that can not be addressed. In Short "One of the Mushroom People." YEP! Being a Mushroom is about the only real way to maintain faith without facing any challenges. I must agree.
"You won’t go to hell for having an abortion or being gay. But that is not Christianity, those ideas. It is not religion. Those are human ideals."
Well, I beg to differ. So the buybull does not say that gays are an abomination? It does...which leads to my question, why a creator of man, and cheesus for that matter, knows nothing about genetics...LOL. I am sure the abortion clinic workers/doctors would laugh at that too, had they not been murdered in the name of christianity.
"The Bible is not itself a religion and should not be taken as literal."
LOL...thats a good one. What planet are you from? You are definitely NOT a christian. I will send you an admit one adult? to Ken Hams circus...so you can meet some real amarcun christians, just for you to be able to identify the mainstay of christianity in the world.
"It is meant only as a guide to those who are curious."
Really? LOL...I guess that is why so much death, torture, mental anguish, perversion and hate based destruction envelopes your self professed religion. That's some guide.
"There’s a lot of bad but also a lot of good. I would not mind at all explaining why I believe parts of the Bible are non-fictional (they’re always some embellishments) and why it is that I choose the Bible over another example to live by."
I would love that you define your "christian" beliefs rather than playing this self aggrandizing narcissistic guessing game. Which BTW is getting tiresome. Please define your beliefs as defined by the buybull.
“Live by” is a little of an exaggeration. God does not dictate your day to day choices."
LOL...Well at least we don't have to guess if you believe in a god or not...LOL. Now you do know what the strong and weak interaction, gravitation, electromagnetism and the other secondary laws of the universe are, and how they affect the occurrence of supernatural things within our reality? Do you not? LOL. Anyway, your supernatural god as defined by your buybull, asks that you follow to a "T" his doctrine, and, believe in him, otherwise you will be sent a one way eternal ticket to club torture, all expense prepaid by your sin. I'm positive this fear based construct dictates your every worldly choice, for all of your faithful life.
Now, you have sidestepped answering my question twice thus far. If you know baseball, and what three swings means, and now that we have pinned down that you actually believe in the christian god...here comes the third pitch in the strike zone...its the same reason based fastball...
What part of the buybull bastardizes or overrides your innate human trait of being able to reason? Keeping in mind the sound foundation of rational you have to overcome for your belief in this deity.
I would never tell someone that based on what I believe to be atheism, they aren’t atheist. And never over a media platform and they’re practically a stranger. I think you’d be insulted if I told you you weren’t an atheist, according to me. And due to this, I’m not going to comment further on this specific reply. I apologize.
Well...that is not at all surprising. Its hard for most to admit that they fail at reason...I knew you were going to strike out.
"I would never tell someone that based on what I believe to be atheism, they aren’t atheist. And never over a media platform and they’re practically a stranger."
Then I must question your original post where you stated ...
"I’m new and very intrigued. I have known atheists but never had an actual discussion. So I’m curious as to some of the questions you might have, if any. Also, let’s just talk!"
Whether you are aware of it, but this entire post has become a one-way conversation where atheists reveal a heck of a lot, yet you are tight-lipped and offer very little on your own position and opinion.
I have given you a lot, and in my first post in this thread, stated "please be honest and not evasive". So to be blunt, your evasiveness has me slightly miffed. I do not get angry, but I do wonder why this conversation should proceed any further.
"There’s a lot of bad but also a lot of good."
But if you begin to pick out the "good" stuff, such as being altruistic and kind, isn't almost all of the "good stuff" secular? I do not need a church or a god telling me to help those in need, to give comfort, or to turn the other cheek.
When you do run across the "good stuff" from the bible or whatever reference you use, just ask yourself if you would have still practiced it no matter if it did or did not come from some theistic source?
This understanding is what greatly assisted me in separating myself from theism. I can practice what I believe to be effective and positive morality, to do the right thing, to love my neighbor, all without a god involved.
I wholeheartedly agree. God is not needed for those things. Yes, he mentions them. But it’s not just advice he gives. So when I come across something good, it isn’t necessarily an action or commandment.
I did not phrase my previous post with the intention of it being a trap. But based on your evasive reply, I must ask, then what use is the bible to you?
Specifically, what in the bible is of importance you, and cannot be found in other disciplines as ethics, morality, therapy in all it's forms, logic, or thoughtful compassion? When you weed out what can also be grouped and identified as secular, what is left for you?
If that avatar is your artwork, Luuvvllee!!
Beautiful. Wished I had some pieces. I'd frame them.
And wolves are one of my five favorite animals. Only two are real.
I’ve loved them since I was little! Got myself a red wolf mix. And nooo.. it’s not.
Hey there again. Hey, just a little tip to keep things from getting too confusing. Whenever you respond to somebody, it helps greatly if you indicate who you are responding to by using the "@" with the member's name at the top of the post (as I have done with this one). Sometimes the threads get lengthy and the posts get shuffled around, making it difficult to tell who the post was meant to address. The "@(member name)" just helps avoid some confusion.
What makes you think (presumably) you are not being scammed (by your church/religion)?
Welcome to AR!
I’m sure some establishments are scamming those that attend. I do not attend church very often but it reminds me of what Jesus said, the church can be donated money but cannot make money. They cannot offer services for payment of any kind. This includes giving people incentives to donate. Like some famous pastors out there.. can’t make money off of books, CD’s nada. This is one of the most common forms of corruption in the church. Sadly, easily justifiable if you squint your eyes just right and an awful person.
"I’m sure some establishments are scamming those that attend. I do not attend church very often but it reminds me of what Jesus said, the church can be donated money but cannot make money. They cannot offer services for payment of any kind."
One of my dear friends passed away just before Christmas. I was deeply involved in all the details required for his funeral. Since my friend was born Roman Catholic, a Roman Catholic priest gave the service. He charged $400.
Par for the course, sadly. It should not be done. Religious services are that, a free service. To ask to pay for it destroys the purpose.
Dear lord. People need to call this crap out.
If anyone gives an offering when the dish is passed, then they are paying for the service.
"Dear lord. People need to call this crap out."
I just did, but not as you intended. You stated previously ... "They cannot offer services for payment of any kind" ... and I utterly demolished that lie by describing a real life event.
The point is, you made an assertion, it was proven to be utterly bullocks AND A LIE, and you just casually dismiss it? The focus has shifted from religion to your BS and evasiveness. Admit you were wrong in your assertion.
Until you correct this, in my eyes are are a liar who refuses to acknowledge what you have done..
@Cult of the Mushroom People
Some are scamming, it's all subjective. I don't scam but that is subjective too. Churches can't make money but money is a very subjective term as are intensives to donate/ "Like some famous pastors who can't make money off of books?" WHAT?? This is all being said tongue in cheek? Or are we still on the "It's all subjective crap?
Hey there, Maddie. Welcome to our little slice of non-heaven... *chuckle*... Nice having you with us. Oh, and as Arakish said, that is a fantastic wolf you have there. And if you did the drawing, I admit I am jealous. Always wished I could draw like that... *grin*...
I do happen to have a quick question for you, if you don't mind. Why do you WANT to worship anybody/anything? I suppose what I mean is why is there such a desire to allow some type of imaginary entity dictate/influence your life. Why would you ever want to bow down and give yourself over to any type of person/entity, especially when that person/entity has been shown to be narcissistic, egotistical, and incredibly jealous and insecure?
I grew up in a Christian (Baptist/Methodist) household in a small town environment. Church every Sunday and many Wednesdays, along with Vacation Bible School during the summers. Yet, even at a young age, the whole bible and Christian religion never made much sense to me. And I NEVER felt comfortable whenever I had to go up to the altar and get on my knees to bow/pray. Never settled well with me in any way, shape, or form. In my mind as a kid, I always wondered why such a powerful and loving god would ever require its "children" to humiliate and demoralize themselves in such a manner. And as I got older with more education and more life experience, the whole thing made even far less sense to me. Basically, my personal code of ethics is that I bow to nobody and nothing. And I absolutely REFUSE to worship anything or anybody. And my personal opinion is that anything or anybody with substantial power that REQUIRES those who are weaker to worship it is incredibly insecure and narcissistic, and is not even worthy of respect. Much less worthy of being worshiped.
Anyway, again, good to have you with us. Looking forward to your response.
@Tin-Man (thanks again)
I don’t want to worship God as much as I like him. I like him, so I then worship him. Not vice versa. Hmm.. I definitely don’t feel pressured to do so either. God doesn’t dictate my day to day life. I go most of my days thinking of God but not in a way that I feel is dictating or controlling by any means. The thought comes and then I’m thinking about it. I am never looking at any of my day to day activities having any real implication on my life or relationship with god. Yes, he is all of those things but not exactly in the way it’s stated.
Religion is asked of, not given. We can agree that those who claim to be devote tend to be.. much less than devote. As if it was something to brag about, like a medal. Don’t do it, if it doesn’t feel right. Jesus says to pray in private, by yourself and to keep it brief. But uh.. yeah. That speaks for itself. He states that people who pray out loud and in the open only want attention.
That’s totally fine. If it was THAT uncomfortable no one should have pushed you to do anything. My 12 yo baptism was... weird and awkward. Ha! I remember going to my stepsister’s baptism. I looked down the pew and noticed my fathers hand tucked firmly behind my stepmoms bum. FIRMLY. That was hilarious at least.
I don’t believe he requires you to do anything. What do you mean require?
Again, I’m sorry. Prayer is not to be made into a spectacle and that’s horrific.
Your code of ethics is perfectly okay. Very headstrong, in a good way.
While I appreciate your taking time to respond to my question, you seem to have taken an extensive amount of time to write a great many words without actually answering my question. I find it interesting that you joined this site with the purpose of inviting atheists to ask you questions about your Christianity. Yet, from what I have seen thus far, most all of your answers to the questions posed to you have been considerably vague, obtuse, and somewhat evasive. In case you haven't noticed by now, we have a fairly intelligent group of folks here who are quite adept at noticing such tactics. You also claim you are here in an attempt to learn about atheists/atheism. Please forgive my skepticism, but truly have my doubts about that.
Anyway, for the sake of my warped curiosity, my primary question was, "Why would you ever WANT TO worship anything/anybody?" Care to try actually answering it this time?
I’m sorry, you’re correct. I misread that and I see the emphasis on the want. Again, I am sorry and will pay closer attention. Reading other replies in other threads I can see a justifiable concern and I want to address them:
1.) Being disingenuous - if it appears this is the case, I may have simply made a mistake in what I’ve read. Bring it to my attention anytime.
2.) Being disingenuous implies that who you’re speaking to isn’t intelligent enough to notice. So I find being that way is insulting, at least in this case. You are obviously intelligent people, even at face value.
3.) There would be no other reason for me being here as I have no personal agenda other than to ask questions. I have asked and received answers. I have also asked and been responded with the similar comment above, with no reply to my question( why I’m addressing them now)
I would never want to worship anything/anyone. To go ahead and add, that I know I worship god. I feel like I do. I mean, I read the Bible a good few times a month and I think of him. But I don’t feel like I am worshiping him. These things coincidentally worship him. I just like doing them.
I want to know what your idea of worship is. Is it the physical manifestation? Or the metaphysical one? The same people who “worship” god by simply reading the Bible now and then, others execute. We may have completely different ideas of worship.
"I want to know what your idea of worship is. Is it the physical manifestation? Or the metaphysical one? The same people who “worship” god by simply reading the Bible now and then, others execute. We may have completely different ideas of worship."
Let me boil this down to one very simple question ....
Do you say the Lord's Prayer?
Either vocally or even in your head. It does not matter if you are in a congregation or alone in the wilderness.
Can your religion survive this?
All of these I got from both Christianity and Islam. I am an equal opportunity atheist. I am all five in my first post: Agnostic, Atheist, Anti-Theist, Anti-Religionist, and Apistevist. It is not that hard to be all five.
Here are some of my favorite quotes from some of my favorite persons.
“Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn’t go away.” — Philip K. Dick
“If this is your God, then he is not very impressive. He has got psychological problems. He is so insecure that he demands worship every seven days. He creates faulty humans and then blames them for his own mistakes. He is a pretty poor excuse for a Supreme Being.” — Leonard Nimoy, as Science Officer Spock in Star Trek, The Motion Picture
“One of the greatest tragedies in mankind’s entire history may be that morality was hijacked by religion. So now people assume that religion and morality have a necessary connection. But the basis of morality is really very simple and doesn’t require religion at all. Religion is the most malignant of all mind viruses.” — Arthur C. Clarke
“Men rarely, if ever, manage to dream up a God superior to themselves. Most Gods have the manners and morals of a childish, spoiled brat.” — Robert A. Heinlein
“Imagine the people who believe such things and who are not ashamed to ignore, totally, all the patient findings of thinking minds through all the centuries since the Bible was written. And it is these ignorant people, the most uneducated, the most unimaginative, the most unthinking among us, who would make themselves the guides and leaders of us all; who would force their feeble and childish beliefs on us; who would invade our schools and libraries and homes. I personally resent it bitterly. Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived.” — Isaac Asimov
“Tell me the reason why you do not believe in all the other gods that have existed, and you have just answered your question as to why I do not believe in your god.” — Ricky Gervais
And some of mine own.
“Only YOU have the power to give anything the power to offend YOU!” — Arakish
“Religious Logic ALL Phenomena: I, [insert name], am incapable of understanding how [insert phenomena] could have happened. Thus, [chosen deity] must have done it.” — Arakish
“If the “love of money” is the root of all evil, then why do churches demand so damned much of it?” — Arakish
“Searching for knowledge and learning is what it means to be human and not a religious robot being force fed only the data they wish you to know. There is no shame in being self-taught, to search for learning and knowledge. The only shame is not searching in the first place.” — Arakish
“Ultimately, no matter how strongly you believe in the Delusion of the God Hypothesis, You Christians could be wrong.” — Arakish
EDIT: And just thought of another one.
“Hey, theist, I am an atheist. I am also a field scientist. I am here to feed your mind. Not kiss your ass.” — Arakish
This is basically a long drawn out version of an argument from Personal experience. "I believe because I want to believe, it feels right to me, and nothing you can say will change my mind." THE CONVERSATION IS OVER GUYS.
The OP can indeed believe anything she wants to believe based on anything she wants to base it on. THAT IS JUST A FACT. NO FURTHER DISCUSSION NEEDED.
"an argument from Personal experience. "I believe because I want to believe, it feels right to me, and nothing you can say will change my mind." "
Bingo, I said as much in my first response. There's a reason my first question is always "what objective evidence can you demonstrate...", because if the answer is none then one could believe literally anything one wanted; and this could as easily, perhaps more easily, be the barbaric and cruel bigotries and prejudices both the bible and koran offer, rather than the smattering of vague, but overtly saccharine sentimentality unknown authors have assigned posthumously to Jesus decades after he is purported to have died.
If a deity exists and for some inexplicable reason chose to put in an appearance in human form, after 13.5 billion years of sitting on its hands, and hundreds of millions of years of fiddling with dinosaur evolution, and in ancient Palestine of all places for some bizarre reason, then I'd expect it offer something more profound than blessed are the peace makers. Especially after it had condoned slavery by beseeching slaves to "obey your masters, even the cruel ones."
Something definitive is surely not too much to expect from an omniscient deity, who has taken the time out from...(well what exactly?) to put in a "live" appearance, albeit one that inexplicably required he take ghostly form to rape some Jewish girl.
It just don't doesn't add up, and something seems rotten in the state of Denmark to anyone with any objectivity.
Yea... I should always read "Sheldon" first when you get there before me. HE HE HE.... I just like to respond to the OP with my own thoughts prior to any influences. I did give her an even opportunity but now I know she is just trolling to practice her presuppositional bullshit. FACT - People like Maddie are allowed to be as ignorant as they want to be. It;s unfortunate, but it is also not my problem. If she does not want to have an honest discussion, that is on her.