I’m Christian, AMA

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Mary9121's picture
@Sheldon

@Sheldon

But you know this. We can’t prove it. You ask every time but you know the answer and by your comment “That saved a lot of time”, tells me that the opposite of what I did happens all the time. I know atheists have better things to do than sit around talking about being atheist. And this is a debate thread. Why even bother if you feel that way, that the god argument is torn down by question 1. Why even bother debating? You’ve already won. And if you’ve already won, why are you in a debate thread?

Sheldon's picture
I never said prove, I asked

I never said prove, I asked for objective evidence, proof is something of a misnomer, as absolute certainty is epistemologically impossible. I neither know nor do I presuppose the answer, but it is difficult not become jaded after years of grandiose claims coming to naught, besides if there was objective evidence it's pretty difficult to imagine I'd hear it here first? I bother of course, because theists keep coming here and keep making claims, or making positive affirmations of the claim by professing to believe, a deity exists.

I don't know what you mean by won, this is a debate forum, but not really a formal debate. A more salient point to be honest is why do you try and debate the existence of a deity if you know you can demonstrate no objective for it? As you say, I am not sure what is left to debate, but I haven't sought you theists to tell them this have I?

Most theists who come here are not as honest as you have been, and whilst this is a refreshing change, the belief seems even more irrational if you know it has no objective basis. Do you believe anything else that no objective evidence can be demonstrated for?

Mary9121's picture
@sheldon

@sheldon

Hmm objective evidence is evidence based on facts that can be psychically tested..

Like, objective evidence that loose car tires cause more accidents than non-loose ones.

The objective evidence you’d compile would then be used for or against your claim.

Objective evidence can never be compiled with my topic on god but I’ve admitted it ( even if I didn’t it’s stil true ) that that’s the case. But it always has been.

I would need to begin with having something to test against. To suggest he exists by objective methods is impossible.

So my answer remains the same.

A direct synonym for objectionable evidence is factual proof.

I understand you didn’t ask me to prove he exists. But asking for objection evidence is asking for factual proof. I have none.

Sheldon's picture
"Objective evidence refers to

"Objective evidence refers to information based on facts that can be "proved" by means of search like analysis, measurement, and observation. One can examine and evaluate objective evidence."

I think the word prove here is better viewed as a scale of certainty, determined by the preponderance of objective evidence to support something.

"I understand you didn’t ask me to prove he exists. But asking for objection evidence is asking for factual proof. "

Well I'd settle for anything tangible at this moment, as subjective feelings are no basis for belief if you care that your beliefs are true. As I say, one could believe literally anything if that is the standard one sets for belief. I'm not telling you what to believe or what standard to set, just pondering how you arrive at belief in something that you admit cannot be evidenced in any empirical way. This sounds like your deity is unfalsifiable, and thus nothing is known or can be known about its nature or existence. That is the very definition of agnosticism, and whilst agnosticism is an epistemological statement about the limits of knowledge, and is not therefore mutually exclusive with belief or disbelief, I don't understand why anyone would believe a claim they admit they can know nothing about?

"asking for objection evidence is asking for factual proof."

I'm not sure that is accurate, the phrase factual proof sounds like an absolute to me. Scientific facts for example always remain tentative as the method demands, but they can nevertheless be so well evidenced as to be beyond any reasonable doubt. I don't have an issue with the word fact or factual here, but proof seems to be more than I am asking for. Something, anything, empirical and measurable that is falsifiable would be a start.

I am too used to theists offering nothing, then insisting atheist want absolute proof as if the request for evidence for a belief is somehow unreasonable. Of course monotheistic religions were established to decry evidence and facts, rather basing belief on vapid things like faith, and again since one could literally believe anything based on faith, what use can it possibly be for validating any claim or belief?

Try this, why do you believe in the christian deity rather Zeus or Thor, or Ganesha or Vishnu, or any other deity really? If evidence can't be demonstrated why does it matter which deity you believe is real?

arakish's picture
Maddie: "A direct synonym for

Maddie: "A direct synonym for objectionable evidence is factual proof."

Wrong. Factual proofs only exist in mathematics. In science, it is objective evidence, or it is not.

rmfr

Mary9121's picture
Why is ANYONE trying to

Why is ANYONE trying to change ANYONES mind? What is going on here?

I’m so sorry everyone but I came hear to talk. Yet I’m reading comments about me and my supposed agenda and cogsworth the ape over there thinks he has an individual, a thinking human being, figured out over a thread while others not NEARLY as abrasive, have expressed similar sentiments. I know none of you and genuinely wanted to. I DO NOT THINK YOU ARE DUMB. None of you. I have no preconceived notions of any of you and I haven’t expressed one either! I will never drown out what you all have to say and accuse you having another purpose besides the one stated. Please, stop. I don’t know why you’re being like this.

In Spirit's picture
Hi Maddie

Hi Maddie

Hang in there. I went through the similar experiences. Don't let anyone define you but we will justifiably critique beliefs. Those are 2 separate things. Don't let fear stop you from speaking out. I personally will not ask you for evidence as a starting point as that will end any further conversations. Humans and their faults are everywhere including here. Don't expect them to always admit to it...just like the real world out there. Here you will learn about yourself and atheists and their justified reasons for being so

Ask me anything you wish or want to talk about.

Cognostic's picture
@Maddie

@Maddie
More subjective mushroom babble from Maddie. Let's take a look at what you have come to talk about.

We begin with several very polite posts from arakish explaining Atheism and David telling you about his life. Arakish chimes in with his life personal history and why he is atheist.

Sheldon then "POLITELY" asks if you can demonstrate any objective evidence for a deity. (Why do you believe.) And what do you share? NOT A FRIGGING THING. NOTHING ABOUT YOU. NOTHING ABOUT YOUR BELIEFS. ABSOLUTELY RAT-SHIT (I love this part. hehehe) NOTHING! You say - "It's Subjective." Well, go kick rocks then. We are not having a discussion. You are being a selfish ass.

Sheldon, still trying to be polite, inquires about your subjective reasoning and offers "What I mean is we could believe literally anything based on personal opinions and feelings, couldn't we? Literally anything...

You respond with the AMORPHOUS - Yes. Absolutely. Cult anyone? But that’s the point. Everyone has a difference in morals, a different perspective. SAYING NOTHING ABOUT YOUR BELIEFS, YOUR REASONS, SHARING FK SHT NOTHING!!! You cite you have INSTINCTS. Then you go into the intellectual monologue of cults and indigenous tribes which has nothing to do with anything, Still avoiding any real discussion and then finishing up with the assertion that the bible is 75% fantasy. STILL NO INDICATION OF YOUR OWN BELIEFS, WHAT THEY ARE OR WHERE THEY CAME FROM THOUGH OTHERS HAVE SHARED WITH YOU!!!

Sheldon Politely Debunks the idea that instincts can lead to anything. "My instincts are real and I have something that (to me) validates my instincts and my beliefs."

AND YOU AGREE WITH HIM - "You’ll see with my original statement I agree with you." That puts us back on zero. You are sharing nothing, you are discussing nothing. You are in complete agreement with the atheist position. YOU HAVE SHARED NOTHING.

YOU THEN TRY TO DEFINE Christianity as "( loose term ) and not another religion?" With 30,000 sects, we probably all agree. Still YOU HAVE SHARED NOTHING AT ALL BUT - IT'S SUBJECTIVE. (THIS IS NOT A CONVERSATION). THIS IS PRESUPPOSTITIONAL BULLSHIT BASED ON YOUR INSTINCT AND NOTHING MORE. You finish with the inane assertion "Reality is different for everyone, it’s “what is real” WHAT A LOAD OF HORSESHIT. If you think reality is different for everyone, climb to the top of your roof, flap your arms and fly to the ground safely. People on the site are letting you get away with BULLSHIT because of your polite tone. It's still bullshit!

David Killens: "I do not accept the argument that being a member of a church and worshipping any god is a legitimate instinct, but rather confused thinking."

NOW YOU DO ANOTHER FRIGGING 180 "No, worshiping a god is not instinct." NEGATE EVERYTHING YOU HAVE PREVIOUSLY SAID. Now you assert you are just asking inane questions for no reason at all.

DAVID THEN PLEADS WITH YOU - "Personal experience is not proof," ...... "Please be honest and not evasive." DOES IT WORK,
"HELL NO" YOU CONTINUE YOUR BULLSHIT POSTS.

"Proof in god is subjective. And though I believe the message it attempts to get across is consistent, doesn’t mean it happens. People use the Bible to justify bad deeds as well as good. I don’t want to only use the Bible as proof. But how would you not like me to use it?" UTTER, UTTER, NONSENSE - FLIPPING THE BURDEN OF PROOF BACK ON DAVID WHEN ALL HE ASKED YOU FOR WAS A BIT OF HONESTY. ALL YOU REALLY SAID WAS "How in the hell can I be honest when it is all subjective."
READING YOUR PASTY SHT MAKES ME WANT TO VOMIT. PICK UP A DICTIONARY AND WE CAN FIND EXAMPLES OF YOUR POSTS UNDER THE HEADING WISHY-WASHY.

David cites the bible as not accurate and you call it "PHONEY." (Some Christian you are?) We are still waiting for you to disclose anything about your religion or belief system or even in what sense you think you are a Christian. YOU HAVE SAID (RAT SHIT) NOTHING AND THUS FAR AGREED WITH EVERY ATHEIST ASSERTION WHILE MAINTAINING BELIEF.

doG - asks, you believe the message regardless of obvious human origins?

Do you give a "yes" or "no?" OF COURSE NOT! You assert, "Well, that depends on what message I believe I’m receiving." IT'S ALL SUBJECTIVE. And now you assert that you " I also believe that great portions of the Bible are fantasy." YOU BELIEVE IN FANTASY. Now there is a mouthful of bullshit if ever I heard one.

I AM BORED OUT OF MY ASS RIGHT NOW. I CAN CERTAINLY PICK THIS UP LATER OR SOME OTHER KIND SOUL CAN DO IT. YOU'RE POSTS ARE MANIPULATIVE, INTENTIONALLY OBSCURE, UNRESPONSIVE, AND DISHONEST.

Cognostic's picture
I don't see a thinking human

I don't see a thinking human being, *Gasp* I thought it was all subjective. OMG! How could you make such assertions., Don't we all get to make up our own reality? I could not be more offended. You single me out and I am only expressing my own subjective reality based opinion! Do you not have an ounce of humanity in your body? WELL...... in the end, it really does not matter and I really have not said anything at all because I don't actually believe anything I have said. It is after all just a feeling and we all know that feelings are subjective. I'm just not being myself and I don't think I am dumb either except for those times when I am really dumb and I pretend like I am smart with all my preconceived notions that I no longer have because everyone has their own reality and it is all subjective (Which are facts by the way and not preconceived notions). I would NEVER accuse you of having preconceived notions and I would certainly not mistake you for a Christian. Well, I know you said you were a Christian but isn't that subjective too. I mean, you could be a Muslim or a Hindu, it's all the same thing anyway.

P.S. "I have clearly stated that you can believe anything you want to believe based on anything you want to base it on. Even subjectivity. Your beliefs are not the issue. Your DISINGENUOUS, DISHONEST POSTS AND MANIPULATIVE AVOIDANCE OF ANY QUESTION DIRECTED AT YOU ARE.

dogalmighty's picture
Yup...Concluded this days ago

Yup...Concluded this days ago. No point in discussing why he fails at reason...apparently, he just does.

Up To My Neck's picture
@*Maddie

@*Maddie

I feel you talk in circles. You say a lot, without saying anything. You cannot cherry pick the Bible. You can’t leave out what you don’t like, but argue for what you “feel” is significant. It’s all or nothing. All churches are out to make money! Have you seen the amount of homeless and hungry? The churches aren’t giving money out! Open your mind. Without money, they wouldn’t exist. Preachers would have to get real jobs.

Mary9121's picture
Yes, preachers and churches

Yes, preachers and churches are corrupt.

“Men rarely, if ever, manage to dream up a God superior to themselves. Most Gods have the manners and morals of a childish, spoiled brat.” — Robert A. Heinlein

A comment a fellow user posted earlier on and one I agree with. I think some of the god mention in the Bible is the human created god. The one that persecuted people for reasons like not being circumcised.

The same reason I believe the atheists wager and Pascal’s wager. I believe he exists but not as described as in the Bible. Some religious folks too said I must take all of the Bible or none. Interesting to hear you say it as well.

Up To My Neck's picture
@Maddie

@Maddie

First off, I want you to feel comfortable here. You have every right to believe as you wish! I am from, and still live in the southeast US. Very saturated by Baptist churches. Here, the Bible is the law of god! No picking it apart! It’s a strict adherence to the word of god! I have never understood, nor believed it, even after I tried. I knew I was lying to myself. Churches, bibles, religions, are all creations of man. Some folks here may seem abrasive. Don’t take it personally. Try to understand this observation... trying to prove the existence of something (god), without proof whatsoever, is impossible! I don’t have to prove it (god) doesn’t exist! There is NO proof he does! If your god is a being of your own design, and not the god of the Bible, makes the whole thing much more unbelievable.

Mary9121's picture
@pirate jack

@pirate jack

Thank you! I’m sure it seems bizarre, he’s from my own design and the Bible. He’s both. Woooow, you were with the hellfire and brimstone folks. I live in Oklahoma if that says anything. My best friend is Christian but originally it was a type of Christianity her grandparents just.. made into their own thing. They thought I was the devil, lol Her family asked us to not have class together in school because she wore a pair of my jeans. Unfortunately I still share my religion with those same people who use it to tear down, not create.

Up To My Neck's picture
I have seen lots of

I have seen lots of prejudices because of religion. I have seen people not welcome at church because of their race, or social standings. I will never believe in a god that hates homosexuals, women, people of different faith, or any other classification. I don’t judge anyone because of who they are, or what they believe. If you are a kind person, and live a great life, help others, that’s all you can ask of anyone. No religion is needed for that. Where people cross the line is when they make assertions without one shred of evidence. If you Maddie, say that you believe in god just because it feels right to you, then that’s great! At least you don’t propose a proof, and suggest I am foolish for not believing what you do.

Sheldon's picture
" I think some of the god

" I think some of the god mention in the Bible is the human created god. The one that persecuted people for reasons like not being circumcised."

Well I think red is a nicer colour than blue, but it should be obvious this tells us nothing about the colour red, or blue, or anything about the validity of my claim. You can't keep making claims and offer nothing to support them beyond wishful thinking.

Sky Pilot's picture
Maddie,

Maddie,

"The one that persecuted people for reasons like not being circumcised."

That image is too funny!!

The Paul character tells a story about how he circumcised Timothy so that they could hang out with the Jews. Imagine if the first thing guys did today when meeting guys was to whip out their penises to show each other that they had been circumcised. Politicians would have to do it on tv and criminals would have to do it in the courtroom. Everytime a guy went to church he would have to whip it out to show the other guys that he was a member of the cult. After Paul lopped off Timothy's foreskin he gave up on doing more of them because he didn't like sucking the blood. Peter liked that part of it.

Jesus never did do any circumcising or baptizing. He just liked to wash the guys' "feet" (gentials in biblical speech). That really excited Peter.

David Killens's picture
@Pirate jack

@Pirate jack

"I feel you talk in circles. You say a lot, without saying anything."

Sadly I have also noted this trend. Maddie, you should be in politics because you do not answer questions directly, but deflect the question.

Cognostic's picture
Pirate Jack: It's mushroom

Pirate Jack: It's mushroom speak, everything is subjective and we can't say anything about anything. It's the new presuppositionalist version of mushroom.

Cognostic's picture
@Pirate Jack

@Pirate Jack
Maddie is another in a long line of presuppositionalists that have visited the site. You will get nothing from here. She will just keep asking "How do you know that." and assert she believes in God for no good reason at all. She does not need a good reason. This is completely true. People are allowed to be ignorant and believe as they wish.,

David Killens's picture
Maybe I am too tolerant, but

Maybe I am too tolerant, but I am willing to give the lady some time to respond. Yes, she may have checked out, but she may also have been involved in something else in her life that got in the way of communicating with us heathens.

Cognostic's picture
@David "but she may also

@David "but she may also have been involved in something else in her life that got in the way of communicating with us heathens."

Yea, a beginners class in apologetics at a Christian university.

dogalmighty's picture
LOL...zactly banana jockey.

LOL...zactly banana jockey.

Cognostic's picture
@CyberLN:

@CyberLN:
Maddie is one of the mushroom people. It's all subjective. She has told us that. Maddie is subjective. Her comments are subjective. She has no reason behind anything she believes other than it is subjective and she wants to believe it. If we leave her alone she will go back to the mushroom factory.

Sapporo's picture
If most Christians were like

If most Christians were like @Maddie, the world would be a much better place.

Mary9121's picture
Thanks. I wanted to “agree”

@sapporo

Thanks. I wanted to “agree” but thought it’d be like a humble brag or something, lol

Tin-Man's picture
@Maddie

@Maddie

Hey there, young lady. Me again. Saw your response to my last post to you. And I admit you made a good point regarding our respective meanings of "worship". A bit pressed for time right now, but just wanted to let you know I will be back later this evening once I get settled in and can use my computer to reply. There are also a few other topics I would like to address concerning a few other comments you made in other posts here. Meanwhile, I hope you are having a good day.

Tin-Man's picture
@Maddie

@Maddie

Okay, I’m back. For starters, allow me to explain what I mean by worship. Yes, there is an official dictionary definition of the word, but I shall give you the version I was raised to believe and obey. Basically, my personal understanding of “worship” is to bow down before another person/being such that you turn your entire self over to it and obey it without question in all aspects of your life. Furthermore, you should subjugate and humble yourself before it at all times, and praise its name daily as a way to prove your devotion to it. Otherwise, it gets butt-hurt and jealous and becomes angry with you. To put it more simply, you are required to kiss the ass of a person/being that is considerably more powerful than you for no other reason than that person/being demands it. And in the case of your God in the bible, it ABSOLUTELY REQUIRES you to do these things under the threat of eternal torture should you choose not obey it. And no matter how much you try to avoid it, you cannot deny that the bible you claim to follow is quite clear in this matter. And in my personal opinion, that is pretty fucked up. That is actually one of the biggest things I could never understand as a little kid. And it makes even waaaaay less sense now that I am an educated and experienced adult.

Okay, so, now… With that being said, you made the comment, “I would never want to worship anything/anyone. To go ahead and add, that I know I worship god.”… *shaking head and doing a double-take*… HUH??? Did I read that correctly??? You realize, I hope, that does not make sense. Soooooo, if you never want to worship anything/anyone, then why worship a god? Are you trying to go to heaven? Are you trying to hedge your bets because you are afraid your god will send you to hell? You don’t want to worship, but you do it anyway. That simply begs the question, “WHY???”

Please understand, again, YOU came HERE inviting us to ask questions of your faith. At the same time, you supposedly want to learn more about atheism. Well, in our case, it is pretty simple: We (atheists) do not believe in god(s). Not very complicated. In your case, however, you still have not provided a clear picture of exactly what you believe or why you believe it. You have even stated you worship your god, even though you would never want to worship anything/anyone. Another statement you made in response to another member was, “I wholeheartedly agree. God is not needed for those things.” {…effective and positive morality, to do the right thing, to love my neighbor…} Naturally, just as others have already done, I have to ask, “Then WHY do you need a god?” Keep in mind, I genuinely and sincerely want to understand your belief if at all possible. But, to be honest, your vague and conflicting statements are making it rather difficult.

So, again, now that we have established my meaning of “worship” with a few extra explanations thrown in for good measure, my question still stands: “Why do you WANT/NEED to worship a god?” (And if your view of “worship” is different from mine, then please tell me your meaning of “worship.”) Oh, and something you should know… Personally, I feel you have the right to believe in whatever you want. Matter of fact, it is a right I spent several years in the military helping to defend. So please know I am not attacking your belief, I simply want to try to understand it.

David Killens's picture
I agree with Sapporo.

I agree with Sapporo.

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