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is it real ranjeet?
that there's a verse in quran that say "if you can't find the answer in quran, you can find it in the holy bible"???
hahahah...is it? ranjeet?
RANJEET@
sir im really respect your point view but unsurprisingly, Islam-critic shy away from posting verses of the Quran, which preaches peace. By bombarding verses out of their context or using dubious translations they seek to give the impression that a book such as Quran leaves no place for peace.
One of the common misconception is that Quran teaches that either non-muslim must be forced to become Muslim or they must be put to death. They justify themselves by misquoting verses, most of which we have discussed in this article. Now, let’s examine what Quran really says, does Quran allow non-Muslim to keep their religion? One whole chapter is dedicated in Quran to this topic called Surah Kafiroon ( )
:
Say: O disbelievers! I worship not that which ye worship; Nor worship ye that which I worship. And I shall not worship that which ye worship. Nor will ye worship that which I worship. Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion " Translation, Quran 109:1-6)
The chapter gives crystal-clear evidence of “let and let live”. Quran states “Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion”. Thus no enforcement of religion by sword or otherwise is suggested in Islam. Furthermore, Quran says that there is no compulsion in religion; non-Muslims do not have to become Muslims against their wishes:
@ Ziani
I am still awaiting replies to my first posts but this one I would like from you
"Yet you would agree that taxing (Jizya) non moslems (dimmis) at a higher rate than moslems is ok?
Would that not be discrimination and protested by every moslem (and a lot of others) if applied to moslems in non moslem countries?
Is that Jizya not a tax to 'persuade' the non moslem to convert?"
An answer would be polite. And from your posts I assume you to be Sunni.
Ziani, this is quite interesting. If this is the case (sorry, but I don't happen to have a Quaran lying around.... Or a Bible either for that matter....
Why do I never hear about this ?
Also, it would then seem to me to be directly contradictory to the verse saying to straight up "kill the infidels" ?
Maybe somebody will want to clarify this point ?
" By bombarding verses out of their context or using dubious translations they seek to give the impression that a book such as Quran leaves no place for peace."
Christians make the same absurd claim when their bible is quoted saying something that contradicts what they're trying to assert. It's nonsense of course, and again an omniscient deity that deals in ambiguity is absurd enough, but a perfectly merciful deity that preaches unambiguously that violence murder and slavery are fine, is a claim no sane half way intelligent person should try to rationalise. These verses reflect the fallibility of human morality, and views we have for the most part left behind in the iron age they belong to.
It's axiomatic that an omniscient perfectly merciful deity that cared what we thought wouldn't deal in allegory or ambiguity, and a merciful deity wouldn't endorse things like violence, murder and slavery. The koran is a man made fiction, same as the bible and all other religious texts. Human beings create fictional deities and religions, and all theists know this and accept, but use special pleading as you're doing here to try and pretend theirs is the exception.
In my first reply to you ziani, I didn't mention any ties between islam and terrorism. You just assume that I hate islam because of extremists. I assure you I know that the terrorism is political. I told you I have close friends that are muslim. However, islam like all religions is based on a lie, a myth. Therefore I don't believe it one bit. Despite the recent terrorist attacks by radicals islam has been a destructive force. mohammed attacked peaceful people and forced them to convert upon the pain of death. So don't preach to me about the peace of islam, it is not a peaceful religion.
@ziani,
[[""There is no compulsion in religion" (2:256), it can only be done with persuasion and the approval of the person. Freedom of belief is one of the leading rights of man. If religion were communicated to people with fear and oppression, there would be no meaning to belief" --ziani]]
Dear ziani, everyone knows that Islam was spread with the sword! Yes, there were people who saw the conquering army approaching, who saw the wisdom in converting without further threat. But many others, of more noble spirit, were killed.
Greensnake@
Sir with my respect if you allow me i want to rectify some misinformation that has been provided regarding about islam and muslims the word "jihad" is frequently interpreted to mean "wage holy war." In fact, it means "a striving." Islamic jihad does not consist in killing and being killed but in striving hard to win the pleasure of God. The highest form of jihad is the struggle of man with his own soul to rid it of vices and ties to the material world, and to elevate his spirit to attain nearness to Allah. Another type of jihad may take the form of preaching and dissemination of the teaching of Islam by peaceful means. A third type of jihad is defending Islam against unprovoked aggression and attempt to physically destroy Islam by its enemies.
as as i told you before according to the Quran, "There is no compulsion in religion" (2:256),
thus, no one can be forced to become a Muslim. While it is true that in many places where Muslim armies went to liberate people or the land, they did carry the sword as that was the weapon used at that time. However, Islam did not spread by the sword because in many places where there are Muslims now, in the Far East like Indonesia, in China, and many parts of Africa, there are no records of any Muslim armies going there. Islam is the fastest growing religion and has 6 million followers without any sword around.
ziani says "jihad" is frequently interpreted to mean "wage holy war." In fact, it means "a striving." "
jihad
noun
a struggle or fight against the enemies of Islam.
>>>I don't really care as you're dealing in semantics, the simple fact is that Islam is a fiction as is the deity it created. It's even a plagiarised religion, as of course is christianity.
-----------------------------------------------------------
ziani says "as as i told you before according to the Quran, "There is no compulsion in religion" "
>>>Nonsense. "Verse 4:65 says that those who have faith are in *****"full submission" to Muhammad's teachings. "
-------------------------------------------------------------
ziani says "Islam did not spread by the sword "
>>>Rubbish. Quran (4:89) - "if they turn back (from Islam), take (hold) of them and ***kill them wherever you find them,***"
-------------------------------------------------------
>>>Who cares, it was at least initially spread by conquest, but what it never has been spread by is objective evidence.
Muhammad made it clear that violent jihad is preferable to peaceful jihad.
quran (47:3-4) - "Those who disbelieve follow falsehood, while those who believe follow the truth from their Lord... So, when you meet (fighting Jihad in Allah's Cause), those who disbelieve smite at their necks till when you have killed and wounded many of them, then bind a bond firmly (on them, i.e. take them as captives)... If it had been Allah's Will, He Himself could certainly have punished them (without you). But (He lets you fight), in order to test you, some with others. But those who are killed in the Way of Allah, He will never let their deeds be lost."
Sahih Bukhari (52:65) - The Prophet said, 'He who fights that Allah's Word (Islam) should be superior, fights in Allah's Cause.
Sunan Ibn Majah 24:2794 (Sahih) - "I came to the Prophet and said: ‘O Messenger of Allah, which Jihad is best?’ He said: ‘(That of a man) whose blood is shed and his horse is wounded.
ziani,
Christianity also established itself, to a large degree, by violence, but later it caught on in areas where no Christian armies tread. That Islam has taken hold in areas where no Muslim army marched does not erase its violent beginning! One need only consult a decent history text. Yes, Islam has been forced on many a person by the sword, directly or indirectly.
copied/plagiarized from https://www.quora.com/Does-Islam-condone-terrorism
Welcome ziani!
I too love academic discussion about history and religion and try to remain respectful.
Two things I would like to point out:
1. This is a debate section of the forums, so expect debate.
2. This is a publicly accessible forum that anyone can sign up for, like any online public forum, while there a rules, unfortunately there is no way to guarantee that everyone will be highly respectful and kind towards you or others. Outright attacks and abusive language or threats will get postings removed as noticed by mods (with possible bans as well,) but, as with any open online discussion a certain amount of thick skin is highly recommended. Do not let yourself get personally upset by anything written here. No one knows your real name or where you live, and you should keep it that way. And realize any threat or attack directed at you that is not yet edited/deleted by moderators carries no real threat to you unless you let it carry a threat to you.
I'm new here but a long time atheist. My opinion Zian, is related to an experience I had recently in a local atheist meetup I was associated with - there were non-atheists running the meetup.
I really want to associate with people of like mind - and, frankly, question the motives of those who join groups they not only disagree with but have animosity regarding. Why do I need to respect your belief in lies and non-truths or anyone else's for that matter? You come to a group of people you do not really associate with to what?.... teach us "love" and "acceptance" and to... proselytize us?
The meetup group moderators admitted they set up the group specifically for that purpose - to educate atheists and show us where we were wrong by hiding as allies and friends and fellow atheists.
I'm confused... to me, it's kinda like a person who hates motorcycles joining the Harley Owners Group... what's the point?
Just saying.
Oh, and the meetup was eventually cancelled because the religious nutcases who started it could not win an argument of reason, rational thinking or logic - eventually got so frustrated that they exposed themselves and disbanded the group. LOL... so much for trying to defeat facts with myths.
@Dragonbonz
They definitely created the group to try and proselytize the atheist attending. What they did not expect was that atheist, especially as a group can easily counter every single argument they can make for their god's existence, as well as counter any reasons to worship their particular fictional god idea.
When joining any group meeting, always take the time to learn as much as you can about them before attending, length of time the group has been established is always a powerful hint on the likelihood of an above board honest group.
Wow ! That must have been quite an experience !
Welcome to AR forum! Islam is bullshit like any other religion.
:) lol I love it when people get right to the point ! :)
With respect to fellow human beings and religion, the truth is that you can put every religion, theories, or ideas on the table with Islam and only Islam wins because it has a Creator who says, "We will assuredly guard it (from corruption)." Chapter 15 verse 9 Islam wins because it is fully completed with no missing parts or addition needed. It is a mirror for you, me, and everybody. Read and it will talk to you as if it is directly revealed to you only. It has got the past, present and future events.
" Allah is He Who raised the heavens without any pillars that ye can see; is firmly established on the throne (of authority); He has subjected the sun and the moon (to his Law)! Each one runs (its course) for a term appointed. He doth regulate all affairs, explaining the signs in detail, that ye may believe with certainty in the meeting with your Lord." Ch 13, v 2
And if all the trees on earth were pens and the ocean (were ink), with seven oceans behind it to add to its (supply), yet would not the words of Allah be exhausted (in the writing): for Allah is Exalted in Power, full of Wisdom. Ch 31 v 27
If you want to truly understand what Islam is read Quran from online , app or get one with the correct translations or learn arabic and read by yourself. On of the well know and highly recommend translator that is more close in translating is Yusuf Ali. If you want a modern English one you can read sahih international.
https://quran.com/?local=en
If thou bring them not a revelation, they say: "Why hast thou not got it together?" Say: "I but follow what is revealed to me from my Lord: this is (nothing but) lights from your Lord, and Guidance, and mercy, for any who have faith."
Ch 7 V 203
In regards to proving God as I answered before here is also how from ch 13 v 1-5
1. A. L. M. R. These are the signs (or verses) of the Book: that which hath been revealed unto thee from thy Lord is the Truth; but most men believe not.
2. Allah is He Who raised the heavens without any pillars that ye can see; is firmly established on the throne (of authority); He has subjected the sun and the moon (to his Law)! Each one runs (its course) for a term appointed. He doth regulate all affairs, explaining the signs in detail, that ye may believe with certainty in the meeting with your Lord.
3. And it is He who spread out the earth, and set thereon mountains standing firm and (flowing) rivers: and fruit of every kind He made in pairs, two and two: He draweth the night as a veil o'er the Day. Behold, verily in these things there are signs for those who consider!
4. And in the earth are tracts (diverse though) neighbouring, and gardens of vines and fields sown with corn, and palm trees - growing out of single roots or otherwise: watered with the same water, yet some of them We make more excellent than others to eat. Behold, verily in these things there are signs for those who understand!
5. If thou dost marvel (at their want of faith), strange is their saying: "When we are (actually) dust, shall we indeed then be in a creation renewed?" They are those who deny their Lord! They are those round whose necks will be yokes (of servitude): they will be Companions of the Fire, to dwell therein (for aye)!
He created the heavens without any pillars that ye can see; He set on the earth mountains standing firm, lest it should shake with you; and He scattered through it beasts of all kinds. We send down rain from the sky, and produce on the earth every kind of noble creature, in pairs.
Such is the Creation of Allah: now show Me what is there that others besides Him have created: nay, but the Transgressors are in manifest error. Ch 31 v 10-11
@Tasnim Mohammed,
[[" Allah is He Who raised the heavens without any pillars that ye can see; is firmly established on the throne (of authority); He has subjected the sun and the moon (to his Law)! Each one runs (its course) for a term appointed. He doth regulate all affairs, explaining the signs in detail, that ye may believe with certainty in the meeting with your Lord." Ch 13, v 2 --Tasnim]]
It doesn't make any sense talking about the heavens being raised, let alone the expectation of pillars--unless you have the Babylonian or Genesis cosmos in mind, which was very popular back then. In Genesis, which adopted a version of the Babylonian cosmos (as obviously the Quran has too), the sky vault is hammered out to separate the waters below from the waters above. That is, the raising of the sky-vault (the heavens) created the space between the sky and earth. The Bible views this vault as resting on pillars, but the Quran does one better with invisible pillars. The moon "runs" its course about the earth, but the sun is not running any such course. Its course through the heavens is imaginary, based on a rotating earth.
It seems to me that you are reading the Quran with rose-tinted glasses!
"With respect to fellow human beings and religion, the truth is that you can put every religion, theories, or ideas on the table with Islam and only Islam wins because it has a Creator "
Begging the question is an informal logical fallacy where a person asserts as fact what they are arguing for in their argument, as you have done here. Islam is a fiction as is the deity its adherents can demonstrate no objective evidence for. Preaching the koran at people and claiming this evidences your deity is like quoting Harry Potter and insisting it evidences wizardry.
You are not seriously quoting the Quaran to us. I for one have read it. I challenge you to find a single page that is not offensive to a non-believer.
Don't bother warning the disbelievers. Allah has made it impossible for them to believe so that he can torture them forever after they die. 2:6-7
Allah has sickened the hearts of disbelievers and increased their disease. He is a spiritual anti-doctor. 2:10
Allah has blinded the disbelievers. "Allah taketh away their light and leaveth them in darkness, where they cannot see, Deaf, dumb and blind." 2:17-18
Allah stamped wretchedness upon the Jews because they killed the prophets and disbelieved Allah's revelations. 2:61
THERE IS LOVE IN YOUR HEART, YOU RESPECT OTHERS, AND YOU WORSHIP A GOD AND A BOOK THAT SAYS THIS GARBAGE? REALLY?
Christians and Jews (who believe in only part of the Scripture), will suffer in this life and go to hell in the next. 2:85
The curse of Allah is on disbelievers. 2:89
Jews are the greediest of all humankind. They'd like to live 1000 years. But even that "would by no means remove the doom." 2:96
"For disbelievers is a painful doom." 2:104 (DISBELIEVERS - THAT WOULD BE US!!! YOU SHOULD WASH THE DIRT FROM YOUR MOUTH AFTER UTTERING THE WORD "LOVE."
Allah will make disbelievers' lives miserable in this world and torture them forever after they die. 2:114
Disbelievers are losers. 2:121
The doom of the disbelievers will not be lightened. 2:162
Those who disbelieve [are] Deaf, dumb, blind, therefore they have no sense." 2:171
Intermarriage is forbidden. 2:221 (WAKE UP !!!!)
Give us victory over the disbelieving folk." 2:286
Non-muslims will be punished by Allah for their nonbelief. 3:19
Allah loveth not the disbelievers. 3:32
Don't be friends with non-Muslims. They all hate you and want to ruin you. 3:118
SO MUCH FOR YOUR PROFESSION OF LOVE AND RESPECT!
Don't believe anyone who is not a Muslim. 3:73
Do not obey disbelievers. 3:149
Unbelievers will be tormented forever with fire. When their skin is burned off, a fresh skin will be provided. 4:56
The hypocrites refuse to die for Allah and Muhammad. 4:66
Have no unbelieving friends. Kill the unbelievers wherever you find them. 4:89
The disbelievers are an open enemy to you. 4:101
ARE YOU A HYPOCRITE?
This garbage goes on for page after page after page. Pretending Islam or the Koran has anything at all to do with peace is ignorant. Yes there will be peace when all the non-believers are killed off and we all follow shariah law. BS!!! The Muslims in Islamic countries can not even get along with one another.
Do you know the origin of the yellow stars Hitler had place on the jackets of the Jews to identify them? They came from Islamic ruled Spain. The Islamic golden age was a Golden Age because of the DECLINE OF ISLAM. It was golden because of Arabic contact with other countries and new ideas from around the world.
What killed the Golden age of Islam was continued wars as they fought the Moguls and the Christians and the influence of Al-Ghazali who managed to turn the Arab nations from the Science of the Golden Age back to the morbid influence of the Koran and its moronic teachings.
Welcome to the forum. And all you are going to get around here is the truth. Islam is one of the greatest evils in the world today and it needs to be stopped. Islam is not a religion. It is a system of government disguised as a religion. It is a theocracy, complete with laws and regulations passed down to believers from an imaginary being. IT IS A LIE.
Cog, great post, albeit a little long.....
I found the part I was looking for though......
" Kill the unbelievers wherever you find them. 4:89
The disbelievers are an open enemy to you"
Sorry if I've responded to too many posts in this thread, but let me just close by saying, Islam, Christianity and all other religions as well, are complete bullshit.
As a species, if we can't get past the scourge of religion, we will destroy ourselves.
Fishy1@
Unsurprisingly, Islam-critic shy away from posting verses of the Quran, which preaches peace. By bombarding verses out of their context or using dubious translations they seek to give the impression that a book such as Quran leaves no place for peace.
It is amazing to see how many non-Muslims would blindly post the verses from Quran, without even reading from ‘appropriate’ and well-know translations. Needless to say they hardly ever know the context.
sir with respect to you If read you quran with good translation and historical context in mind, no significant complaint can be found , However, some non-muslims insist on using a very poor translation of Quran with additions.
Take for example this partial quote , “And slay them wherever ye find them …” this is part of five-long verses (2:190-195), which must be read together. When read in context the legal implication derived stipulates that fighting is permitted only under certain strict circumstances. Additionally, the same verses prohibit transgression of limits, and it does not promote killing of innocent people but allows self-defence. It further goes on to state “if they cease, let there be no hostility except to those who practice oppression.” Clearly, when the whole context is examined the verses do not promote killing of innocent people.
The same is true for all other verses ,They are to be interpreted within a legal and historical context, and not in isolation.
sir a fuller reading of the verses show that much restraint and care is emphasised. For example the Koran says: “… therefore if they withdraw from you but fight you not, and (instead) send you (guarantees of) peace, then God has opened no way for you (to war against them)” (4:89-91). And, “Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for God does not love transgressors” (2:190).
Those who read the Koran should keep at a minimum the following principles in mind: The reasons for revelation or the historical context of a particular verse; familiarity with the science of abrogation; examination of the verses that deal with the same subject; a cursory knowledge of prophet Muhammad's life; and the way these verses are applied.
When these texts are not read in their proper textual and historical contexts they are manipulated and distorted – by Muslims and non-Muslims alike.
A contextual reading of the Koran or Hadith leads to one conclusion only: there is no justification for the killing of innocent people, whether in Baghdad or Boston. Full stop!
@ziani,
[[Unsurprisingly, Islam-critic shy away from posting verses of the Quran, which preaches peace. By bombarding verses out of their context or using dubious translations they seek to give the impression that a book such as Quran leaves no place for peace. --ziani]]
Oh, sure, verses preaching peace and other good things can be found in the Quran--or the Bible. The point is that there is a lot of rotten things in it as well. Allah cannot be the author of a book that is half good and half rotten.
You're missing the point, if as you keep insisting it is a peaceful message from a perfectly merciful deity that is omniscient then there would only be peaceful versus to quote, but it has endless passages that endorse things like slavery, violence, and murder.
It's also fairly hypocritical to keep accusing others of ignoring the verses they don't, like when you are doing precisely this, and lying that they are being quoted out of context, as if your biased views are the only context that applies.
copied/plagiarized from https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/20141018074418-256647332-misquoted-violen...
Cognostic,
"You are not seriously quoting the Quaran to us. I for one have read it. I challenge you to find a single page that is not offensive to a non-believer."
That's quite a list and it's certainly true. But the Bible also contains all of those ideas as well and gives examples. The Bible is much more violent than the Koran. If we had to cope with the biblical Israelites it would be hell on Earth for sure. Imagine the hell of living under all of the biblical laws.
The difference is that the Old Testament is ethnic specific. It doesn't care about the Gentiles as equal people. The New Testament is also ethnic specific but it makes an attempt to sell the fairy tale as being applicable to everyone under certain conditions.
The Koran is more universal. Although there is a number of Islamic sects anyone can become a muslim as long as he/she follows the basic rules. The various sects may not like each other but there's a certain amount of nationalism involved as well.
The bottom line is that Asian religions are harmful to one's mental health and all of them should be avoided.
Welcome to AR Forum!
Can you prove a god is real? Can you prove it's the god you worship?
xenoview@
hello sir hope you are fine there , yes sir of course , first the Quran contains hundreds of verses that speak of the universe, its components and phenomena such as the Earth, the sun, the moon, the stars, mountains, wind, running water, plants, embryological animals, and the successive stages of development of the human being. More than 1,000 verses relating to cosmic facts or cosmic phenomena can be counted in the Quran. During the early days of the Quran, scientific knowledge of the universe was limited and it was not easy to elaborate on the verses relating to the universe or its phenomena except within the limitations of the time. However, we now know about the laws of the universe much more than before and that is why reviewing the 1,000 or more verses relating to the cosmos, man and his surroundings can be one of the most obvious miraculous aspects of the Quran. This is because of the precedence of the Quran, which was revealed more than 14 Centuries ago, with many of the scientific facts, at a time when people had no knowledge whatsoever of such facts. The Quran has addressed so many of these facts in a language that is more precise, accurate and concise than scientists have ever been able to do. Nothing in the Quran contradicts any established scientific facts. These cannot be all covered in a short article and hence I have chosen only five verses that can testify to the miraculous nature of the Quran from a scientific point of view:
The creation of the universe is explained by astrophysicists in a widely accepted phenomenon, popularly known as the “Big Bang.” It is supported by observational and experimental data gathered by astronomers and astrophysicists for decades. According to the “Big Bang,” the whole universe was initially one big mass (Primary Nebula). Then there was a “Big Bang” (Secondary Separation), which resulted in the formation of Galaxies. These then divided to form stars, planets, the sun, the moon, etc. The origin of the universe was unique and the probability of it occurring by “chance” is zero. The Quran contains the following verse, regarding the origin of the universe:
Have those who disbelieved not considered that the heavens and the earth were (once) a joined entity, then We separated them and made from water every living thing? Then will they not believe? (Quran, 21:30)
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