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Fishy1,
"Tasnim, would it be possible to translate this to modern English ?"
The secret to writing a religious fairy tale is to use stilted pretentious grammar. That way it seems more authentic and believable.
Fishy1,
"Tasnim, would it be possible to translate this to modern English ?"
Here's a link to the Koran in a PDF format. It's 241 pages so all you have to do is scroll through the pages to find the numbered chapters and verses. It's in clear modern English but even so some of the ideas are convoluted. There's no word search feature.
Here's a typical example =
67.SOVEREIGNTY(al-Mulk)
In the name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful
1. Blessed is He in whose hand is the sovereignty, and Who has power over everything.
2. He who created death and life — to test you — as to which of you is better in conduct. He is the Almighty, the Forgiving.
3. He who created seven heavens in layers. You see no discrepancy in the creation of the Compassionate. Look again. Can you see any cracks?
4. Then look again, and again, and your sight will return to you dazzled and exhausted.
5. We have adorned the lower heaven with lanterns, and made them missiles against the devils; and We have prepared for them the punishment of the Blaze.
6. For those who reject their Lord, there is the torment of Hell. What an evil destination!
https://www.clearquran.com/downloads/quran-english-translation-clearqura...
Do you understand that for most atheists, the Koran carries as much weight as toilet paper? It is just a book written 11,500 years ago. And since so many passages have murder and other despicable acts scattered through out it, one can never claim it is one of love and peace.
David Killens@
Sir i am not just a Muslim i am Muslim who give a Respect for others, i do not hate anybody ,i could never despise you for your colour, your race or your family or your religion because In the religion of Islam there is no racism because all people are equal
please mutual respect
The koran says that Muslims will laugh as all the non-Muslims are sent to hell to be tortured for eternity. That is not at all respectful.
"please mutual respect"
Stop with this duplicitous nonsense please, we're not nearly as dimwitted as you keep implying. He disrespected the absurd beliefs of Islam, he did not disrespect you, and you have resorted to some fairly nasty stereotyping of atheists from the start. I don't find your posts respectful at all, quite the opposite.
Atheism is not a belief, it is the absence of one single belief,, so claiming relentlessly what atheists as a demographic think outside of that single belief they don't have is nonsense and quite disrespectful. If you want people to respect your beliefs then make sure they are rational and stand up to some cursory scrutiny, and that they don't make barbaric and immoral claims. Respecting your right to believe that immoral bilge is not the same as respecting the belief itself, which no one is obliged to do.
What about all those people you plagiarized?
In case anybody missed my post (which would be easy, as it was to one specific post by ziani, and so it went back to the first page)
Ziani quoted a part of the Quaran which I have never heard of. I'd sure like to get some opinions of my fellow atheists about this. In a nutshell, Ziani says "other parts" of the Quaran say to be accepting of other religious beliefs ? Huh ? Really ? First off, this sounds totally contradictory to me. But why have I never heard this ?
Fishy1,
"Ziani quoted a part of the Quaran which I have never heard of. I'd sure like to get some opinions of my fellow atheists about this. In a nutshell, Ziani says "other parts" of the Quaran say to be accepting of other religious beliefs ? Huh ? Really ? First off, this sounds totally contradictory to me. But why have I never heard this ?"
If you are up to it try wading through chapter 5. 5. THE TABLE (al-Ma’idah). It's on pages 37-44, with 120 verses of this link = https://www.clearquran.com/downloads/quran-english-translation-clearqura...
Dio, I tried, but that looks just like Christian bible jibberish. I get lost after a sentence or two.
Fishy1,
I said that you would have to try to wade through it. The tar is thick and sticky. But if you give it another try the applicable part to your question might be found starting around verse 65. All of the other puts it into context. It's confusing to say the least.
We send down (stage by stage) in the Qur'an that which is a healing and a mercy to those who believe: to the unjust it causes nothing but loss after loss. 17:82
Do they not consider the Qur'an (with care)? Had it been from other Than Allah, they would surely have found therein Much discrepancy. 4:82
We have sent down to thee the Book explaining all things, a Guide, a Mercy, and Glad Tidings to Muslims. 16:89
Nothing have we omitted from the Book, and they (all) shall be gathered to their Lord in the end. 6:38
This is the Book; in it is guidance sure, without doubt, to those who fear Allah 2:2
Such are some of the stories of the unseen, which We have revealed unto thee: before this, neither thou nor thy people knew them. So persevere patiently: for the End is for those who are righteous. 11:49
So set thou thy face steadily and truly to the Faith: (establish) Allah's handiwork according to the pattern on which He has made mankind: no change (let there be) in the work (wrought) by Allah: that is the standard Religion: but most among mankind understand not. 30:30
Soon will We show them our Signs in the (furthest) regions (of the earth), and in their own souls, until it becomes manifest to them that this is the Truth. Is it not enough that thy Lord doth witness all things? 41:53
This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion. But if any is forced by hunger, with no inclination to transgression, Allah is indeed Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. 5:3
Please read the Qur'an with clear understanding and all your questions will be answered.
"Now have come to you, from your Lord, proofs (to open your eyes): if any will see, it will be for (the good of) his own soul; if any will be blind, it will be to his own (harm): I am not (here) to watch over your doings." 6:104
These are clear evidences to men and a Guidance and Mercy to those of assured Faith.
In regards to what Quran says about the punishment of the non believers here is the verse that can logically be understood with common senses.
What! Do those who seek after evil ways think that We shall hold them equal with those who believe and do righteous deeds,- that equal will be their life and their death? Ill is the judgment that they make. 45:20-21
Thank you for your time and patience.
Do you believe that those who do not submit to Allah should be tortured for eternity, as Islamic dogma preaches?
Well none of that evidences your beliefs at all, and it only preaches peace to those who surrender and submit to those beliefs.
Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them,
Quran (3:56) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."
Quran (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers,
Quran (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks."
Quran (4:101) - "verily, the disbelievers are ever unto you open enemies."
Quran (4:104) - "And be not weak hearted in pursuit of the enemy; if you suffer pain, then surely they (too) suffer pain as you suffer pain..."
Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"
Thank you for your time and patience.
@fishy1
Thank you brother to you and others for letting me know about it please this is the best English translation I can offer but if you don't get then read the Sahih international translation
https://quran.com/?local=en
Thank you for your time and patience.
@ Ziani and Tasnim
Yet still no answers to my questions.
Lots of quotes, lots of proselytising, but no answers to two wery simple questions.
Are you Sunni?
Do you support Jizya?
You are not coming at me through HUMANITY! This would be acceptable. Indeed we are all human beings surviving in this world to the best of our ability. You are coming at me through your blindness and ignorance. You are coming at me through Islam and the Koran. You can take your filth to someone else. You do not get to spread your lies and call me Brother at the same time.. I am no brother of yours. Your philosophy and your Koran make that perfectly clear. I am the Unbeliever of whom you speak. I reject your ignorance, your faith,. your God, and your religion. Your book makes it clear, if you call yourself Muslim, how you should treat me.
"Taqiyah" WE ARE WITNESSING "TAQIYAH" FIRST HAND. Muslim scholars teach that Muslims should generally be truthful to each other, unless the purpose of lying is to "smooth over differences" or "gain the upper-hand over an enemy"
There are several forms of lying to non-believers that are permitted under certain circumstances, the best known being taqiyya (the Shia name). These circumstances are typically those that advance the cause of Islam - in some cases by gaining the trust of non-believers in order to draw out their vulnerability and defeat them.
ISLAM IS THE RELIGION OF LIES!
Quran (3:28) - This verse tells Muslims not to take those outside the faith as friends, unless it is to "guard themselves" against danger, meaning that there are times when a Muslim may appear friendly to non-Muslims, even though they should not feel friendly.
Quran (3:54) - "And they (the disbelievers) schemed, and Allah schemed (against them): and Allah is the best of schemers." The Arabic word used here for scheme (or plot) is makara, which literally means 'deceit'. If Allah is supremely deceitful toward unbelievers, then there is little basis for denying that Muslims are allowed to do the same. (See also 8:30 and 10:21)
I would never call such a person "brother."
Cognostic,
"Your book makes it clear, if you call yourself Muslim, how you should treat me."
The Jewish Babylonian Talmud says that Jews should treat Gentiles the same way muslins treat non-muslims. Christianity is barely better. If a person wants to be religious he has to be a bigot in order to do it right per his holy book. Look at Martin Luther and the Catholics. They worshiped the same deity and read the same holy book. Their favorite pastime was killing each other.
True religion is dangerous to one's mental health.
@fishy Islam is tolerant of other religions.
“(And as for My messenger,) there is no (obligation) on him except to deliver (the. message). God knows what yon expose and what conceal”. (5:99).
Once the people of Mecca said to Prophet Muhammad that if god did not want them to worship idols then why He does not forcefully prevent them from doing so. Then God sent the following message:
“(O Muhammad) This is not a new excuse; those who weft before, them made, the same excuses. Is there anything upon the messengers except the dear conveying of the message”. (16: 35). "But if the people turn away (then do not be sad because) We did ma sent you to be a guardian over them. It is for you only to deliver the message." (42:43).
And WHAT IS THAT MESSAGE? Same as the Christian faith. Everyone will worship Allah or burn in hell. If you do not worship Allah you are a filthy sinner and not to be trusted. Islam like Christianity is an in-group/out-group faith. You are a member and accepted or an outsider and rejected. It's just that simple.
The Qur'an contains detailed instructions and examples of how to meet unbelievers. The Qur'an states categorically that Muslims cannot have non-believers as friends, advisors, consultants or protectors (Qur'an 3:118 and 4:144). If a Muslims wife is, or becomes, a disbeliever, the marriage can be discontinued and the dowries paid for them can be demanded back (Qur'an 60:10). The second instruction is that unbelievers should be called to Islam; in fact, the Qur'an says you cannot wage war against unbelievers until you have preached to them. The third instruction is that if they do not convert to Islam, then, they must be fought. The fourth instruction is that if they surrender, or convert, then you must stop waging war.
it is acceptable to deceive, double-cross and break deals. Deals with unbelievers are not real deals, anyway, and are to be broken as soon as more aggressive moves can be made. Robert Spencer, author of "The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam" points out that there are over 100 verses in the Qur'an that exhort Muslims to fight unbelievers; this includes 'chopping their heads off' (Qur'an 47:4). The verse says that Allah forgives only those who have the right beliefs, and non-believers' actions will 'come to nothing'. The reason that such black-and-white morality is permissible is the same reasons that Christians gave during the Dark Ages of Faith: any enemies of Christians were actually Satanic:
Any non-believer in an Islamic country must pay a tax for their non-belief. Obviously if they do not convert to Islam by the rapture they will be doomed to hell/. This is Islamic acceptance/
http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/islam_unbelievers.html
I pointed out earlier that the yellow stars the Jews were forced to wear on their sleeves did not come from Hitler but from Islamic ruled Spain. Islam is an enemy to humanity.
"The practice of wearing special markings in order to distinguish Jews and other non-Muslims (Dhimmis) in Muslim-dominated countries seems to have been introduced by Umayyad Caliph Umar II in early 8th century.The practice was reissued and reinforced by Caliph Al-Mutawakkil (847–61), subsequently remaining in force for centuries.[3][4] A genizah document from 1121 gives the following description of decrees issued in Baghdad:
Two yellow badges [are to be displayed], one on the headgear and one on the neck. Furthermore, each Jew must hang round his neck a piece of lead with the word Dhimmi on it. He also has to wear a belt round his waist. The women have to wear one red and one black shoe and have a small bell on their necks or shoes."
This is Religious Acceptance by Islam. The Jews and Christians are an open enemy to the Muslims. SO SAYS THE KORAN.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_badge
Like Christians, Muslims lie and use double speak. God loves you! Islam is a religion of peace. YEA! For a believer. Everyone else has made the choice to be tortured.
AT THIS POINT: THIS GUY IS JUST TROLLING. Irrelevancy after irrelevancy, and lie after lie. The religious of the world become so immersed in their own ignorance they know not what spews from their mouths. What we have here is a master cherry-picker and someone deeply engaged in "Taqiyah" (lying to the infidels to gain their trust)
@Diotrephes: I don't think you meant the comment for me. We are comparing the horrors in different religious texts now? This is a really poor move. We are atheists, of course we see the utter stupidity in ancinet Jewish and Christian faiths as well. Who gives a damn what ancient Jews or Christians said in their texts. It has no bearing at all on Islam other than the fact that Muhammad copied their texts when he told stories that were later written down and became the Koran.
Cognostic,,
"@Diotrephes: I don't think you meant the comment for me. We are comparing the horrors in different religious texts now?"
Forum posts are tricky. After the OP and the first response that disagrees with it the subject is over. Everything after that just becomes repetitive unless a new thought is added. And then it seems that someone is sure to get ticked off because it's considered some sort of personal attack.
The basic idea in the Bible and in the Koran is identical. As a story the Bible is better written but the essential message is the same in both of them. They make the same threats and same promises but the Koran is more universal than the highly ethnocentric Bible. It's silly for non-Jews and non-Arabs to believe in either one. However, I will probably continue to waste my life away comparing and contrasting them when someone makes a comment that can be applied to the other. So don't feel obligated to respond to any of my comments if they highlight something you wrote in one your posts.
I think it's enough now we don't have to waste time on this religious trolls (blind followers) there are many other good threads to discuss
@oldmanshouts
Dear brother there is no sunni/ shia/ wahabi or other sects in Islam.
In regards to jizya/ tax to non Muslims look back to the Hadith and why they made the jizya. Don't just think Islam according to people's view but go back to the books and read brother. Go look at Quran and Hadith and you will know what happened and why it was made to paid.
Do I support jizya, in common sense answer do you see any non Muslim paying it now? Which Muslim country is making Non Muslims pay it now 2018?
Anyone who has questions
Call 877-whyislam
and you can ask about Islam and other religions. You can also challenge it and we can analyze your atheist in common sense and logically.
Anybody who was to know about Islam or want to criticize it feel free to call 877 whyislam at no cost and we will discuss it in depth.
Or, Who originates creation, then repeats it, and who gives you sustenance from heaven and earth? (Can there be another) god besides Allah? Say, "BRING FORTH YOUR ARGUMENT, IF YE ARE TELLING THE TRUTH." 27:64
In regards to other questions about burning in the hellfire my dear human being are criminal and peaceful people the same do you treat them? Is it logical enough?
Is good leader who knows that people put him as a leader, grateful for them, changes their lives into better, and justice to all kinds of SAME AS a leader who is ungrateful for his people, unjust to the people, benefits only himself and those he likes, spreads corruption and mischief and unjust to those who have different ideas and takes his leadership as to get enough money to live with for the rest of his life? Are they equal? Do people like them equally? Is clean water and dirty same? Is the one who earns money from working lawfully same as the one who earns money from corruption, bribery, and killing and stealing same?
Shall We treat those who believe and work deeds of righteousness, the same as those who do mischief on earth? Shall We treat those who guard against evil, the same as those who turn aside from the right? 38:28
Say: "Not equal are things that are bad and things that are good, even though the abundance of the bad may dazzle thee; so fear Allah, O ye that understand; that (so) ye may prosper." 5:100
Shall We then treat the People of Faith like the People of Sin?
What is the matter with you? How judge ye?
Or have ye a book through which ye learn-
68:35-37
These two kinds (of men) may be compared to the blind and deaf, and those who can see and hear well. Are they equal when compared? Will ye not then take heed? 11:24
Not equal are the blind and those who (clearly) see: Nor are (equal) those who believe and work deeds of righteousness, and those who do evil. Little do ye learn by admonition! 40:58
The blind and the seeing are not alike;
Nor are the depths of Darkness and the Light;
Nor are the (chilly) shade and the (genial) heat of the sun:
Nor are alike those that are living and those that are dead. Allah can make any that He wills to hear; but thou canst not make those to hear who are (buried) in graves. 35:19-22
Please read the Qur'an you can understand better than to assume that Islam is the way your think or hear.
Thank you for your time and patience.
@ Tasnim
"Dear brother there is no sunni/ shia/ wahabi or other sects in Islam."
So the moslems of Iran don't exist? They think they are shi'ites....and the Sufi aren't sufi? Please explain.
And there are taxes levelled on non moslem businesses in Saudi, Kuwait and Oman, they just don't call them Jizya.
The rest of your post is nonsense.
I am only willing to tolerate people, regardless of religion, if they are tolerant in kind. I don't care what your religion is as long as you actually are a decent human being. If love, peace, and kindness is in the air you breath, then welcome. If not, then leave us alone.
One of the greatest challenges of humankind is learning to live together in peace. Tolerance is the only practical answer. I will never believe in your god, or any god, without the extraordinary evidence that would be required. I don't believe in the personal testimonies in the Koran anymore than those in the Bible. They do not hold any legitimacy and certainly do not hold any authority over me, but I am fortunate to live in a secular country where being an atheist is not likely to get you killed. I expect that you will tolerate us in kind. Do not try and convert.
@oldmanshouts
I apologise if my answer wasn't full to be understood.
Please check this out we'll see if your question is explained or not.
https://youtu.be/A4W7SUcTQfw
You aren't going to convince anyone here if you keep citing videos from that known liar/idiot.
Dear brother no one will convince you if you don't want to take it. My job is to clarify for you. Whatever you might call, he is answering the question being asked. I hope you get my point.
Brother, the difference… it’s a political difference. Actually in Islam, there is nothing like Shia and Sunni – There is no ‘Shia’…. ‘Sunni’ mentioned in the Holy Qur’an.The Qura’n says in Surah Al-Imran, Ch. No. 3, V. No. 103… (Arabic)…‘Hold together to the rope of Allah, and be not divided’ – there is nothing like ‘Shia’…. ‘Sunni’ in Islam. These came in later centuries…afterwards, due to political differences in Islam. Muslims are only one category and are no sub categories like… Shia, Sunni or anything. Because Qur’an say clearly in Surah Anaam, Ch. No. 6, V. No. 159 that… ‘Who ever makes sects… divisions in Religion of Islam, he has nothing to do with Allah (SWT).’ Means, making sects is prohibited in Islam. The difference between Shia and Sunni is a political difference, and not a religious difference. Hope this answers the question.
If then they run away, We have not sent thee as a guard over them. Thy duty is but to convey (the Message). 42:48
@ Tasnim
So we can ignore present reality because your book says that Sunni/Shia/Sufi etc do not exist?
Then why don't they stop killing each other in the name of your prophet?
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