Tasnim Mohammed -

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ziani seems to be in paradise.

I appreciate that you brought an authentic Hadith. Thank you. I wish for you and other atheist to see you in the paradise that you guys turn back to your Creator because you certainly will directly or indirectly whether you like or not. Everyone of us will be there. It seems impossible for you but Remember this on that day because we will all read our books by ourselves. I hope God opens your brains and eyes to think and reflect. Let me be honest with you I am not doing for my own benefit but for you to open your eyes and THINK not only from the scripture but also from what you see around you. One of the amazing thing is that you see some Muslims graves with light and good smell and non Muslim graves bones and fossils and snakes etc. I hope you get a chance one day to see with your own eyes a Muslim grave opened after many years and the body looks fresh non of his/her clothes torn and a beautiful face. Then compare it with the rest of non Muslim graves and reflect and THINK why they're different.

My dear brother by being a woman doesn't mean that hellfire is the destination but the prophet PBUH said they are the majority and the Hadith you mentioned above states the reason "You curse frequently and are ungrateful to your husbands." If Muslim sister avoids that and be righteous then she will be rewarded.

"And their Lord hath accepted of them, and answered them: "Never will I suffer to be lost the work of any of you, be he male or female: Ye are members, one of another: Those who have left their homes, or been driven out therefrom, or suffered harm in My Cause, or fought or been slain,- verily, I will blot out from them their iniquities, and admit them into Gardens with rivers flowing beneath;- A reward from the presence of Allah, and from His presence is the best of rewards." 3:195

Sorry guys, it's a long post!

Dear Tasmin Mohammed and ziani,

Didn't you say that Islam values reasoned debate? So far it's been a one-way discussion with you two! I might as well be talking to a wall; at least I might get an echo!

In this thread I have made 14 posts to you that answered your riddle-proofs or challenged some claim. Exactly one post was answered; my rebuttal was ignored. Poor "Old man shouts…" has been trying very hard to get an answer to two, simple questions, one of them being "Are you Sunni or Shiite?" You evaded the issue by saying that the Quran (and therefore Islam) doesn't distinguish. Of course not! The split occurred after Mohammad died. It's a fact of Arabic life that each sect of Islam has their own interpretation of Islam based on the same Quran. Don't you think it's time to give him an answer?

Neither have you made much of an effort, if any, to provide credible defenses for the ocean of ugly verses that forum members have found in the Quran. Can you blame us if we conclude that Islam has no defense? Of course, we don't expect you to defend every one of those verses, but you could ask each major contributor to single out 3 or 4 of them. Another one-way discussion!

Following is a list of my 14 posts in the order they physically appear on my screen.

1) 3-17 22:55 Here is my criticism of your argument about unobtainable knowledge involving a storm at sea.

2) 3-17 23:32 Islamic religion is the problem, not a few terrorists. The Quran has been elevated to the status of an idol; Mohammad has been elevated to the status of a god.

3) 3-17 23:50 Islam was spread by the sword. It was not a matter of freedom of choice. This is the one post you attempted to rebut, and you pointed out that Islamic armies have never been in many parts of the world that have adopted Islam.

4) 3-18 18:02 After Islam was established it did spread into distant areas without the aid of armies. However, much of Islam's early rise to power did employ violence. There was no such thing as freedom of choice unless it was the choice of joining up or getting the sword (or a heavy tax). Supporo brought up 47:3-4 in the Quran which certainly doesn't look like freedom of choice!

5) 3-18 00:07 Here the Quran presents the silly spectacle of Allah raising up the heavens. We see the folly of the sun "running its course." (Ch 13, v 2)

6) 3-18 00:18 Critics don't have any logical requirement to mention the good verses in the Quran. Allah can't be the author of a book that is half good and half rotten. Establishing the rotten verses is enough to rule out Allah as author.

7) 3-19 22:22 I show why the distance of the sun is no proof of God.

8) 3-18 00:24 Finding modern science in the Quran is a game of 20-20 hindsight! One can do the same thing with the aimless text created by Nostradamus.

9) 3-19 23:23 I answer your watch argument. Again, the fact that the distance to the sun is just right is no proof of God. The same argument applies to various other parameters that make our life possible.

10) 3-19 23:36 The hide-and-seek god is a silly concept. That the Quran justifies it is just another reason to pitch that book into the big can!

11) 3-18 16:27 I addressed the absurd claim that the theory of biological evolution has no academic or scientific support, that it only gained favor because it allowed one to doubt God.

12) 3-18 17:00 Atheists are not pained nor confused by doubts about their rejection of the god idea. Demanding a purpose for existence is a "proof" of God that begs the question of God's existence. There is no such purpose unless one ASSUMES a creator who had a purpose in mind.

13) 3-18 00:32 Yes, many Westerners do have a poor understanding of Islam, but some of the best criticism comes from ex-Muslims who understood Islam all too well. Some of the problems were touched on by the great Islamic scholars of the golden age of Islam!

14) 3-18 00:43 The flat-earth nature of the Quran as depicted in "the spreading out of the earth" and the silliness of "setting mountains" on that flat earth is exposed.

Should you get into the mood for a two-way discussion with me, please refer to the original posts rather than the above abbreviated descriptions.