Objections to the Trinity

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Joshua Thanopoulos's picture
Objections to the Trinity

21STCENTURYICONOCLAST has asked me to answer objections about the bible by Muslims. For this debate, assume that the Bible and Quran are historically accurate, even though that might be inconsistent, for the sake of the debate, just assume so. I believe that if the Trinity is proven correct, then Islam is false. The idea of the Trinity is that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are distinct but also one. They are not separate, but distinct. They are distinct by their names, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and are also distinct by their individual purpose. However, they are one due to their unified, holy, nature. Think of it like matter (solid, liquid, matter) or time (past, present, future).

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chimp3's picture
The Bible and Koran are both

The Bible and Koran are both inaccurate. A religion with a claim to exclusive truth is like any other.

Joshua Thanopoulos's picture
I said to assume they were

I said to assume they were accurate.

chimp3's picture
Not interested in your

Not interested in your assumptions. Go play Theist vs. Theist elsewhere.

Joshua Thanopoulos's picture
I'm asking what your

I'm asking what your objections are to the concept of the Trinity. If you don't want to say, fine by me.

chimp3's picture
Unknown: No objections. It is

Unknown: No objections. It is just a myth. Not interested in pretending the trinity or Koran is correct. I do not debate in that fashion. According to Robert Downey Sr. Jesus is a song and dance man, the father is a choreographer, and the ghost is a cigar chomping talent agent. Care to debate that?

Joshua Thanopoulos's picture
Can you please explain what

Can you please explain what Bob Downey Sr meant by that?

chimp3's picture
A little lighthearted poke at

A little lighthearted poke at the concept. Why should I give a moment of serious consideration to the trinity. Here is a link to the Robert Downey Sr film Greasers Palace. Watch the whole thing sometime. We can debate this instead:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_iodOHwGjU

By the way , the young man is Robert Downey Jr. His first film role.

Joshua Thanopoulos's picture
I don't even understand what

I don't even understand what is going on in the video.

chimp3's picture
A mocking satire of the

A mocking satire of the trinity and the life of Jesus. All the respect they deserve.

Joshua Thanopoulos's picture
What would you like to debate

What would you like to debate about it?

chimp3's picture
Unknown: Why does your

Unknown: Why does your concept of a trinity deserve a moments consideration? Why should I be impressed?

Joshua Thanopoulos's picture
Because ideas deserve to be

Because ideas deserve to be argued, some more so than others. If you have objections towards the idea of the Trinity, then please state them. If you say something along the lines that it is idiotic, please clarify why it is so.

chimp3's picture
Unknown: I left the Catholic

Unknown: I left the Catholic church when I was thirteen years old. They failed to convince me they had anything valuable to offer. You are failing to convince me that arguing the merits of this trinity is worth a moments time.

Joshua Thanopoulos's picture
What are the merits in

What are the merits in debating anything? The merits of debating anything is prove what is write and what isn't. I have stated my case above, do you have any rebuttals?

LogicFTW's picture
My rebuttal is you can not

My rebuttal is you can not even get the word "right" correct. (You wrote "write')

I personally have no interest in exactly what your definition/meaning behind this Trinity idea. Are you trying to say your god is special because it goes by multiple names that both the same thing and not the same thing?

It would be like me going on about that my flying spaghetti monster god is real over your god because its part spaghetti it is part monster and it flys. It is all 3 of those things and therefore distinct yet.... separate... oooh I got goose bumps . SO sayeth the book on it!

Yes that last part about goosebumps is sarcasm.

Joshua Thanopoulos's picture
Apologies about my spelling.

Apologies about my spelling.
1. "Are you trying to say your god is special because it goes by multiple names that both the same thing and not the same thing?" - Among other things that makes him special, I would prefer unique, but whatever rocks you boat, yes.
2. "It is all 3 of those things and therefore distinct yet" - I am not talking characteristics, so much as persons.
3. Not calling you out, but when are you going to get back to me on our other conversation(s) on that other forum. Again, just curious, not calling you out.

LogicFTW's picture
Sorry, did not realize there

Sorry, did not realize there was unfinished debate. I will look for them and respond.

chimp3's picture
My rebuttal is that I have no

My rebuttal is that I have no concern what so ever regarding the trinity. A dispute from the iron age passed on to us , I am passing it back.

Sky Pilot's picture
If the Bible is wrong the

If the Bible is wrong the Koran is automatically wrong because it recognizes most of what's in it.

whatistruth1838.146's picture
Chimp3 Are you saying that no

Chimp3 Are you saying that no one can claim that a statement is absolutely true?

LogicFTW's picture
I don't know if chimp does,

I don't know if chimp does, but I know I agree with that. No statement can be absolutely 100% true. That is also a core flaw with religions that deals with absolutes. 100% true anything is an idea, it does not exist in reality. Another way to say absolutely, or 100% is to say it is infinitely true. It can exist in concept in our heads, but not in reality.

whatistruth1838.146's picture
Chimp3 and other atheists do

Chimp3 and other atheists do you agree with LogicForTW's statement?

Nyarlathotep's picture
The truth of an argument

The truth of an argument depends on truth of its postulates (and other things). From that viewpoint I suppose someone might say no argument can be absolutely true; but that is not how I would phrase it.

whatistruth1838.146's picture
I'm going to assume that they

I'm going to assume that they do agree with you. To save time I will respond to you and anyone who agrees with you. Here's another question:

Do you believe LogicForTW that your above statement is absolutely true?

LogicFTW's picture
Nope. No statement including

Nope. No statement including this one can be 100% true. It is a word game. It is trying to tie in an idea that is metaphysical, subjective to reality. If we keep ideas purely within the idea phase, sure to ourselves we can make any statement 100% true. It is just an idea. Will not necessarily be that way for other people thoughts on the same idea. But for it to be 100% true it would have to be more than an idea, but something in reality. Reality lives in a world of non perfect. It can be very reasonable to say on certain subjects it is 99.99999999999999999 percent true, and for all intents and purposes for us it may as well be 100% true. That we can discuss and use this idea/application. For instance on something like: the chances that we will die, (describing a physical real world event) can be thought of 100% but that is taking the common agreed thought process that their is the tiniest possibility that is not true, it just so small it is not really worth mentioning.

Just like their is no perfect 100% circle. It is the same reason the Pi fraction goes on forever trying to chase perfect. Just like nothing is exactly 100% 12 inches. Only the idea of it can be. 100%, perfect does not exist in reality, in the physical universe.

Here is another example, people can say what goes up must come down, 100% of the time. Gravity is constant 100% on this planet, there is no escaping it. Well... given enough rocket fuel and a controlled explosion... :)

whatistruth1838.146's picture
Well since your statement was

Well since your statement was just a game and not objectively true. Then I don't have to take is as a serious claim against what I'm saying.

LogicFTW's picture
You are right, you do not

You are right, you do not have to take anything I say, (or anyone else,) as a serious claim or as any kind of claim. I strongly encourage always weighing for yourself if a statement is true or not enough for you to take action on it. On important things: a question should pop in your head: how do I verify that this is likely to be true enough that I should act on this information?

But utterly dismissing out of hand any statement can also be ill advised. If we are in the same room, and I yell out to you "look out" and you decide to dismiss everything I say because nothing can ever be 100% true that I say or anyone else, you may well end up with a bump on your head from a falling overhead lamp.

We all use reasoning, experience etc to weigh just how likely something is true. We do it every day without even realizing it. If we could not on some level reason based on available information the best action to take, we would not live long at all. We also do not paralyze our self with trying to deal with absolutes. When we turn left at a busy intersection, we reason when to make the left, if there is a turn signal for it that is currently green, and the way looks clear, we can reasonably assume that is a good time to turn left. But we can not be absolutely sure that is a good time to turn left? Even if the way looks clear? Perhaps a meteor falls out of the sky at the space your car takes up as you turn left just then. Highly unlikely, but you can not eliminate the possibility.

Most atheist have reasoned out that it is far, far more likely their is no god, then that your god exist. We do not deal in absolutes. I am not 100% sure, (in the truest definition of that statement, that I am right, I am just 99.999999999999999 percent sure that I am right.) A well reasoned mind can take that to mean for all my intents and purpose, I am right about this, I can act on this. This is a very good piece of information to act upon.

Joshua Thanopoulos's picture
"No statement can be

"No statement can be absolutely 100% true." - How about 'Hitler existed'?

Nyarlathotep's picture
"No statement can be

UnKnown - "No statement can be absolutely 100% true." - How about 'Hitler existed'?

The universe might have been created 5 minutes ago with false age (which would mean Hitler didn't exist).

Joshua Thanopoulos's picture
Touché

Touché

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