Proof is not in the pudding. It's in the questions.

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ʝօɦռ 6IX ɮʀɛɛʐy's picture
You just responded to a

You just responded to a comment I left for blindwatchmaker; which essentially decreases the chances of her responding. If anyone is distracting and derailing conversations its you. As such you can expect me to respond to you with diminished interest, and increased humor.

Sheldon's picture
"I personally think the

"I personally think the design route is far more interesting than just throwing up our arms to chance and calling it a day."

False dichotomy fallacy. It's also a straw man to assume anyone who doesn't believe risible ancient creation myths that are not supported by any evidence has "thrown their hands up" or opted out of finding out how life came to exist.

"There's an implausibility to humans existing in the first place, "

An entirely moot point as humans DO exist, so the odds against it are largely irrelevant. There is however no evidence for a designer or any evidence for design.

ʝօɦռ 6IX ɮʀɛɛʐy's picture
There's no false dichotomy

There's no false dichotomy here.

Sheldon's picture
Other than the one I pointed

Other than the one I pointed out obviously. You see John we're not limited to the two choices you offered, hence it was and is the very definition of a false dichotomy. Here take another look and see if you can up your game above a vapid petulant denial.
Breezy "There's no false dichotomy here."

You mean because we are limited to the two choices you offer here:

"I personally think the design route is far more interesting than just throwing up our arms to chance and calling it a day."

Disbelieving unevidenced myths from archaic superstitions, does not mean I throw my hands in the air to chance and call it a day, those are not the only choices we are facing. Read it slowly, you may get there for once.

ʝօɦռ 6IX ɮʀɛɛʐy's picture
If I say red is better than

If I say red is better than green, that doesn't create a false dichotomy between those two colors.

Sheldon's picture
Breezy "I personally think

Breezy "I personally think the design route is far more interesting than just throwing up our arms to chance and calling it a day."

The choice is not either blind faith in unevidenced creation myths, or "throwing up our arms to chance and calling it a day". It's either blind faith in unevidenced creation myths, or an acceptance of the known scientific fact of species evolution, which is evidenced beyond any reasonable doubt. Thus no one who rejects superstitious design myths "throws up their hands, or calls it a day", hence you presented a false dichotomy.

arakish's picture
If I say red is better than

If I say red is better than green, that doesn't create a false dichotomy between those two colors.

However, with you it does.


Sheldon's picture
His analogy would be more

His analogy would be more like claiming he found red more interesting than throwing up his arms to bananas and calling it a day.

LogicFTW's picture
"If I say red is better than

"If I say red is better than green, that doesn't create a false dichotomy between those two colors."

Off topic sort of, but I could not resist and had to add:

Deuteranomaly is the most common form of color blindness in people, which is a reduced sensitivity to green light. Thus for practical reasons it is better to use red colors over green colors if you need contrast. Ofcourse, protanomaly (reduced sensitivity to red light.) is the 2nd most common color blindness humans have and many humans have reduced to BOTH red and green light sensitivity, making just about any other color objectively better than red or green.

Objectively we should stop using red and green as traffic signals to direct traffic.

Cognostic's picture
@Great hope:

@Great hope:
WOW! What a mess!
1. First of all, you begin with some sort of comment about "What we KNOW" and then move on to ignore the issue completely by asserting that we do not know a whole lot of stuff that we know quite a bit about.

@" The core of all athiesm is rooted in physical evidence and personal proof as a reservation that couples with expectation."

What in the hell are you on about. Atheism is a rejection of the evidence and personal proof of religious expectation. It's not rooted in anything. It's asking for evidence or proof and frankly anything you have that can withstand critical inquiry will be perfectly acceptable. There are no expectations in Atheism. You are thinking of religious mythologies.

@"We do not know how this reality is possible." What difference does it make. It's here, deal with it. And we certainly know how a great portion of reality is possible. Perhaps you need to define what you are talking about. We have solid scientific theories that explain the creation of planets, the sun, the stars, genetics and procreation, life cycles and more. To what are you referring?

@"We do not know what's beyond this reality." Begging the question. You can not ask the question without assuming something beyond this reality. You can not make that assumption without evidence of something. You also really need to define reality.

@"We do not know what happens when we die" We know exactly what happens when we die. Our bodies deteriorate and the atoms contained in them return to the dust from which they came. Prove me wrong! "We have a sense of eternity?" FACT: We know of absolutely nothing that is eternal. Nothing! How would you find such a thing. What people have is a sense of impending doom and so religions are fabricated to assert eternity without any evidence at all.

@The Mirror of Truth. It begs the question, who is that, inside of you? (NO IT DOESN'T) You are engaged in the fallacy of mind reading.

@"Since we do not know. Then why can't any of us just leave it alone?" This is the most moronic statement a human being could possibly make. Imagine if we just left things alone and never bothered to explore. We would be nothing more than animals. A real moronic statement.

@"What created all of this? What gave us life? " When you ask stupid questions you get stupid answers. Do you know how to ask a question without "Begging the Question/" You are asserting that a "WHAT" a "THING" of some sort "CREATED" something. This is an assertion disguised as a question. What if there is no "What." Have you found one? Why would you assume a "WHAT" either created all of this or gave us life. Your questions are useless.

@"Out of all the countless forms of life, why are we hue-mans the only ones singled out to have these convictions?"

Another unsubstantiated assumption disguised as a question. You really need to take a course in logic or at least understand the basics of logical fallacies. YOU HAVE NO IDEA HOW TO ASK A QUESTION. You can not assume humans are "singled out." You should probably take your "convictions" one at a time and be clear about what you are talking about. So far you have just made one faulty assertion after another.

@"There seems to be a significance about it?" NO! You seem to be assigning significance to it. You may just be mistaken. If it is significant, please prove it.

@"We should be able to see all sorts of creatures in some progression of evolution gaining some kind of questioning intellect. "

This statement demonstrates your complete lack of understanding of the evolution process. We "SHOULD" see no such thing. Evolution is not a progression from lower to higher forms of life. Even if it were many forms of life are more highly developed than use in different ways. Addressing the emergence of intelligence, there are apes capable of conversation and using tools. There are birds with 5000 word vocabularies who communicate quite clearly. The intelligence of both have been estimated to be the same as a 3 year old child. We see intelligence everywhere when we look for it.

This is REALLY BORING. Every statement you make is a cloaked assertion which demonstrates your inability to grasp the simplest of scientific facts, evolution, basic biology or cosmology. Perhaps you could pick just one of your wild fantasies and post it. This half digested puke of mixed assertion you are spewing is so disorganized and unconnected to reality that it isn't worth the read. You also might want to make some "I" statements and stop attributing your fantasy assertions to others. "WE" certainly do not believe the same garbage you are posting.

Grinseed's picture
Sorry, this got pretty long,

Sorry, this got pretty long, but the so is the OP. You're doing fine Great Hope, just need to work on that brevity thing.

Fact 1 We do not know.


My sixty plus years have shown me that I dont know if there is anything at all beyond this reality. I doubt there is. Experience tells me there is nothing. Many dear people I have known have passed away and I endure no expectation of ever seeing them again. Sad, but its what I have come to expect in this life. As you say "what you want is not always what you get" (though I would rather say "what you want is not what you get, deal with it").

I do know my life will end (and probably in the next 10 or 20 years). But you are wrong. I do not have "a sense of eternity" quite simply because as I mention above I do not sense nor expect anything beyond this reality. (oh and I am an atheist too, so what would you expect?)

There can be no valid "great debate", simply because, as you say, we do not know. You cannot debate with things you do not know, you can only wishfully speculate.

Life should be a continual questioning of one's self. As Socrates (iirc) said "The unconsidered life is not worth living."
There is no "mirror of truth" which suggests that who you are is hidden like some clear and resolved reflection ready to be discovered. Its more like an oil slick in a puddle, the shapes and colours slowly ebb and flow, constantly presenting new facets of appearance. Who you are is a constantly changing puzzle that can get more complex with age.
Who you are is affected by what happens to you. I would not be who I am today if my wife were still alive. Experience has changed me and continues to do so. Who we are is not an answer. Its a continuing experience.

Why cant we leave it alone? Because we are human, homosapien sapiens. More specifically because we have the brain we have, as a species and we are insatiably curious. Curiosity might well kill the cat but it also shows the cat where to hunt mice, that the old lady at the end of the street will feed it milk and to find the safest places to sleep during the day undisturbed. Curiosity is a good and powerful trait.

You need to read more about how our brains have developed and why we have limits to our abilities and just why other animals have not followed the same developments that we have, intellectually. I have recommended the following reference before on AR. Becoming Human: How Evolution Made Us. A free ebook to download and read.

However there are countless resources to choose from if you search. We have been very curious about just how our brain works and doesnt work. We have learned a lot about ourselves because we just cant leave it alone.

Its not hard to be critical of what the human species has done to this world's biosphere. We certainly have made some terrible judgements and taken horrendous actions against each other, other animals and against ourselves. But in no way are we "the only corrupted part of nature" using "everything in a delusional perversion" as you suggest. How we and our brains have interacted with this world is still very much a part of nature. We are still a part of nature which can be a careless cruel and nasty place.
What is it that you suggest "was intended" and who told you it was "intended"?

There certainly is no single part of the "human condition that is flawed that no other living thing has". We are animals, apes specifically, and certainly not imaginary angels. We stumble, we grope, we make mistakes and sometimes we excel beyond expectation. It just so happens that we are animals and we arent perfect, thats all.

Fact 2. We are created by design or by random accident.

I wont comment on your usage of "design" but "random accident" is an inaccurate description when talking about how life began and evolved. Physics and chemistry might seem random and accidental but each confirms to regular and variable but predictable processes that are far from just luck and happenstance and understanding the complexities involved can only heighten your wonder and appreciation of what forces and influences have shaped the occurrence of life.

I am certain that the idea of being created is far more frightening. I suggest you re-read "Frankenstein". Coming into being by chance is a far more fascinating and amazing concept, not frightening at all. It in itself adds meaning and importance to this one life I have. The idea of being created robs life of its wonder.

You seem to think that if we werent created by a god then we have no meaning or morality or purpose? Its a bleak outlook my christadelphian brother would share with you. I find it complete nonsense.
I assume your god is the Abrahamic god who supposedly waited millions of years until just three/four thousand years ago to present himself and his 21 commandments and 613 mitzvits to keep mankind moral, you know, the rules that included such kindly advice such as "You will not suffer a witch to live." Oh my goodness indeed. All those old lonely widows living quiet lives, tending gardens, living with the cat for company, assisting as midwives, slaughtered, burned to death on the authority of sanctimonious pious goat herders two thousand years prior. Oh the horror.
It does look like that world we live in today. Where religous zealots fly passenger planes into office buildings for their god, molest toddlers in their pastoral care, "do what thou wilt." If you beleive in an afterlife what sort of punishment do you think would be suitable for Hitler? The bugger is dead already and good riddance.

There is no designer, no creator, no judger, no punisher, no placer and no information, no validation, no authority for this reality or this life.

Fact 3 We havent seen the ending.

Death is not going to be a proof, its going to be our last experience. As I can not avoid it, like all my problems I think it best to embrace it. I am ready.

And congratulations BWM, lovely news. Keeps the wheels turning.

NewSkeptic's picture
For #1 the fact that we do

For #1 the fact that we do not know at least implies that there is no all powerful god.

If there was an almighty, he/she/it/zhe would have the power to make this moot since he/she/it/zhe would know and could transfer that knowledge to us. It takes all kind of mental gymnastics to explain why that power is therefore choosing not to let us "know" and instead requires us to "believe" without giving us this knowledge.

This easily falls into my top ten reasons I'm an atheist.

Great hope's picture
All the early humans did know

All the early humans did know. Sin has separated us from God. God is life. Sin is death. Life is separate from death. He said it would get like this. But, He set a plan of redemption from the start for anyone who doesn't like this way of sin. Everything points to the Savior. We reset the timelines around His life. Yet no one has the body??? Lol every king wants a big ol tomb. Christ said I only need one for 3 days. This video covers how it would be the most important thing to reveal His body for any side... If they had it?
Watch "How to Destroy Christianity With One Easy Step... | IMPACT Whiteboard Videos" on YouTube

This short song covers why Christ is necessary and how the whole Bible is about Him. Before he was born. It's worth a listen.

Sheldon's picture
I don't believe any of that,

I don't believe any of that, what objective evidence can you demonstrate to support those claims?

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@! Great Hope

@! Great Hope

Utter and complete bunkum...without a shred of evidence to back up the assertions you make.

There is no contemporary, none, not a bit of, evidence for the existence of the Chrestus aka Yeshua aka Jesus, so not surprising there is also no body.

"The whole bible is about him" quote is also utter bollocking bollocks and just proves you haven't read the filthy thing.You've just taken the bits of Isaiah that seem to conform to something written to conform to Isaiah much later...its also utter bollocking bollocks of the highest order of circular bollocking bollocks.

Will you stop wasting my valuable eyeball time and actually come up with some evidence or even a couple of facts to back up your craziness?

Great hope's picture
I want to give you a glimpse

I want to give you a glimpse of my story before I begin answering. A bit of my story comes from many encounters with death and levels of consciousness. Not new age stuff. I just had lost all will to live for several years. So I played with extremes. I've lost consciousness in just about every way imaginable. When I was really done with playing around and decided to stop prolonging the inevitable. I called out to God angrily and said you had better show up. I pulled over. Left my wallet, keys, and cell phone in the driver's seat, rolled the windows all the way down and took a case of rum out of the back that I just bought and walked out into the desert. If I came back? I would expect that my truck would be there. And if it wasn't? I would take it as a sign that I wasn't supposed to come back and I would for sure end it quick. I was already drunk (my tolerance was extremely high) and as stumbled around until I found somewhat of a cave. Opened up the first of 6 gallons of 100 proof rum and kept drinking. I did this for 4 or 5 days. I had lost all sense of time. But I do remember a voice telling me to let go. I would yell out "I am letting go of everything, even life itself!" It wasn't until the early morning of the last day that I woke up several hours before Dawn. I only had about half a gallon left. I felt like I had already died but somehow woke up. I didn't know it was possible to feel that level of pain and live. I was about to start drinking it and go to a cliff I had been eyeballing. I said, well where are you? That's finally when I broke into tears for the first time in years. When I did, instantly a vision overwhelmed my being and a voice said there is Love for the brokenhearted. I don't think it was audible. It was hard to distinguish anything. It was just like a surge that overtook every function of me. The vision showed me that it was I, who was responsible for the hurt. I was able to see myself looking at myself. With no filter. I was roughed up and scarred holding a liquor bottle in one hand and a beat up strong hammer in the other, with blood all over me standing tough and proud on top of a mountain. This person I was looking at. Looked down at a child version of me playing innocently. Then the child looked up and pointed over to my dad that was covered in chains suffocating (he had killed himself when I was 4). Then the child me pointed over to my mother who was identifying my body. The last, of whatever heart i had left, broke completely, turned to dust, and blew away. The reflection guy dropped the bottle and hammer and fell to the ground grabbing his chest, turned to dust and blew away. I fell to the ground. This is where it gets crazy. I felt a presence breathe like it was the wind. I said, what do you want me to let go of? The voice said, "that". I looked up and saw a mirror. "Forgive him, for he knows not." I heard. As I could barely breathe. I said what do I do? And I was shown all the people who had ever been kind, generous, patient, and Loving to me. Covering me in this weakened state. "If you have helped the least of these" I heard so loudly that it shattered the mirror. (I was the least of these that all those people tried to help. But I didn't see them. I only saw me.) I was wisked back to my cave bent over on all fours hovering above the last bottle. I threw up some blood and stood up. I said to God. "They say you can do stuff" let's see it. I kicked over the bottle and began to walk back to my truck. Nervous to see if it was still there? Lo and behold, it was!!! With the keys, wallet and phone. I said you better heal me quik. I'm not going to the doctor's. After some time in reflecting of everything that happened and feeling my breathing come back. My phone had enough charge to call my mom. I was very close to my mom when I was young and did everything I could to take care of her and my little sister until I was about 21 and I set out on my journey of myself. I had really distanced myself in the last couple years of a decade. I had got so consumed. So to hear my mothers voice. I didn't know choked up until that moment. When I could finally get a word out after an eternity of silence. I said.................. "I'm ready Mama" she knew what I meant.

My life has not been the same since. It was easy letting go of everything after that. Everything that I had learned and all of the teachings became a solid substance as a new heart grew inside. I was given new sight to see things differently. I was connected to people that grows to this day. Connections so solid you could say that we are blood. I've been able to help so many people. I gave all I had, and now I have more than I ever did. Not just stuff, but life and time. My heart is so full that tears and goosebumps are a daily thing. I don't pray much and I don't go to any church. I just opened up my houses to help anyone who needs hope. Our number is in hospitals, homeless shelters, and Red Cross. We have quite a solid foundation of help and direction. We are self supporting helping people with no money. I don't feel like it's really me doing anything. I just feel like I got in line and stopped getting in the way of what God wanted for my life. I couldn't have ever dreamt that this would be my life. And I never could do this stuff without my connections. I seem to be a magnet for athiests and people who don't like God. Because I Love them just as they are. That I'll be there if and when they are ready. But I am a facilitator. Not the Savior. So I just show them with my light of life and piont to Him. That's why I say no answer will ever be enough unless you first admit that you don't want to know God. Before you can ask "The Question" why do I not want to know God. It has nothing to do with anything else other than that. Our minds will come up with everything that will separate us from that question. We can't wrap our minds around The Creator and Giver of Life? C'mon. God is something that you have to feel. But it took me to extremes and death to get that. Who knows what it takes for someone to be ready? I just wasn't going to go any further without my own experience. So I took it into my own hands and sped up the process. The outcome is a permanent shattered heart that still works. The wizard never gave the tin man anything that he didn't possess. But he did show him how he uses it matters.

Oh horseshit!!!! Booooo!!!!! I call shenanigans!!!! That's not proof! Observable or repeatable!!! Where is the BREVITYYYAAAHH!!!!

I studied all kinds of religions and beliefs. I think that's what made me the angriest. How was I to know what one was right? If any? I despised people in churches and vidoes all happy and shit. I would ask "what do they know about testing faith?" They just accept it blindly! How do they know for certain? Where's the proof? All I see is books. Written by a man. Why are there so many different ones? Maybe the devil exists and mixed em up. I'll go ask him. I needed more.

So after my experience in the desert. Since I was ready to know "The Creator" that's when the veil was lifted from my eyes. Gave me the Spirit of Truth. That showed me the only complete package from beginning to end. The actual Living Word of God. Is the plan of redemption. Written unlike anything on Earth. Why is a simple Carpenter's son the biggest name in all history, resetting the timelines? Did this guy really fool the whole world from beginning to end? Fooling billions before He was born, fulfilling all the prophesies impossible to match, and all the way up to today, and until the end of time? Why is His name the only name in history powerful enough to be used as a everday swear word? The Bible the standard for historical accuracy, most reliable source of ancient text, standing the test of time against historical criticism based on multiple eye witnessed accounts proven to be accurate by countless outside sources and countless archaeologist confirmations becoming our greatest source for the origins of life and death in antiquity? Not to mention that the Bible is the standard for reliability with more than 26,000 copies of the same script, that we still possess today. Written on 3 continent's, in 3 different languages, by 40 different author's, over a span of 1500 years, no other work has been done comparable to The Bible. It should not exist. Even if it were possible for man to conceive of or create such a work? The people who were finishing it would have long forgotten why they started it at all. Let alone the inconsistencies that they would encounter. Convincing all the people who were inspired to write this stuff (Kings, Queens, peasants, poets, herdsmen, military leaders, Shepard's, scientists, farmers, priests, pastors, and governor's) to stick with the same story for 1500 years. Most of the authors never met. The cooperation efforts would be astronomical. Yet is stays consistent with the same story from beginning to end. They must of had inspiration from the same source. Hmm, what source could that be? The more you look into it with the spirit of truth? Your amazement in the credibility of The Bible will quadruple every single time. This dude, Jesus the Christ, was really here. With verifiable facts. If He didn't die for our redemption? Then where is the most important body that ever walked the face of this Earth? Remember there is a force against us that doesn't want you to know this stuff. Great attempts have been made to badger it. Many claim it in the name of other conquests. Look at it in a way where you forget everything you've been told about it and it's just you wanting to know for yourself.
Just try and entertain this video before you reply. The first of 3 speakers hits the nial on the head (no pun intended) on the credibility of the Bible againts other claims of God. Skip to 5:30 minutes in. There is also links in the description to a full version if it Sparks something inside you?

David Killens's picture
So you reached bottom, got

So you reached bottom, got incredibly hammered and hallucinated. That is what happens when one goes on a bender like that.

But are you ignoring the part that YOU reached bottom, and YOU decided to do something about it? You were either going to die or come out of it a better person and with a purpose. Religion or god hallucinations had nothing to do with it, you decided ON YOUR OWN to change.

It is a bloody shame you do not take credit for your own actions, but instead invent some crutch. You did a brave and admirable thing, but give credit to a hallucination.

Sheldon's picture
"I can put myself in other

"I can put myself in other people's shoes in very high levels."

Ok this has kicked my OCD off big time. Can anyone tell me wtf it means?
As for this...

" Our internal universe of the mind, seems to have a longing for the missing chunk of meaning and purpose."

Wtf, seriously? Is it English?
"As we cross the threshold of death. "The big reveal" sounds so exciting.... Do you need more proof? Or are you ready?"

More proof? What proofs have we had, and more proofs of what? Do apologists go on some sort of course to learn to espouse this kind of incomprehensible gibberish?

Great hope's picture


Are we not created by spontaneous combustion? By design, or not design. I think we are still created. Or is there another way to say it?

xenoview's picture
Great Hope

Great Hope

Still to long of an OP, have to make them shorter.

Sheldon's picture
"Are we not created by

"Are we not created by spontaneous combustion?"

No, do you not know how conception happens?

"By design, or not design."

Is that a question? What Objective evidence can you demonstrate that life is designed?

"I think we are still created."

Great, why are you telling me? Why should I care what you think, when you can't demonstrate any objective evidence for it?

LogicFTW's picture
@Great hope

@Great hope

Spontaneous combustion??? WHAT?!?

Combustion does not create it consumes! You could say there is a slow form of combustion in terms of oxidation processes that occurs in multiple ways in our body, But that is not creating, and it certainly is not spontaneous.

A problem I notice with many theist is the generally held idea that we "pop" into being at one point. (Many theist favor the point of the fertilization of the egg once the world at large learned of this process.).

This is not true, we do not "pop" into being. The fertilization of the egg does not happen instantly, (it can take hours.) And is only 1 step, (albeit an important one,) of a cycle, a cycle that has been going on for billions of years that gets ever more complex, driven by efficiency.

We are created by cellular division. The building blocks of "life" on this planet. The whole sperm meets the egg thing is just a special form of it, a more efficient form.

We are designed by dna information. We are designed by efficiency.

Great hope's picture
I apologise. I just scrolled

I apologise. I just scrolled my long post. I didn't think it was that long. I really will keep them short after that one. I had to give you my point of reference.

arakish's picture
And as I asked in the other

And as I asked in the other thread, when are you going quit preacing, and present your idea you want to debate. If you do not want to debate an idea, then quit the fucking preaching.


Great hope's picture


Forgive me. I dont think I've ever debated then. Ive asked a lot of questions. Then I respond to what people ask me. I think the debate is always proof. We do have a lot of stuff to look at. Like the claim that Christ said

"Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me."

Has anyone tried that yet? I mean that's like a really big claim, and it's in the number 1 book of all time in every category. There is some credit there. Right?

Sheldon's picture
What objective evidence can

What objective evidence can you demonstrate that any deity exists?

arakish's picture
@ Great Hope

@ Great Hope

"Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me."

Actually it goes more like this:

Jesus: knocking on door.
Person: “Who’s there?”
Jesus: “Jesus.”
Person: “Prove it.”
Jesus: “Just let me in.”
Person: “Why?”
Jesus: “So I can save you.”
Person: “From what?”
Jesus: “From what I am going to do to you if you don’t let me in.”
The one who threatens to torture us has come to rescue us. Yeah, makes a lot of sense to me.


Jesus dies for our sins, without even asking us. He expects full payment, and will have us tortured forever if we refuse. Yep, makes sense to me.


Jesus: “Don’t think that I came to send peace on the earth. I didn’t come to send peace, but a sword. For I came to set a man at odds against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. A man’s foes will be those of his own household.? He who loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; and he who loves son or daughter more than me isn’t worthy of me."


David Killens's picture
No, Great hope, you are

No, Great hope, you are preaching your ass off.

And instead of actually answering questions and engaging in debate, you go off on a preaching rant.

Sapporo's picture
The bible may indeed be the

The bible may indeed be the most stolen book of all time, but that does not mean that it is of merit. Is Jesus like a thief in the night, or is he a noisy shepherd?

Great hope's picture
@ Sheldon

@ Sheldon
We can't produce the body of Jesus. When the most documented event in antiquity says that people saw him die and buried in a tomb. Then over 500 eyewitness saw him again alive and ascend into the sky. this is in the most creditable source in antiquity. That covers the origins of life and death and deity. number 1 in every catagory. If this is not true? Then we have to throw out everything else. Because nothing else stands up to the credibility of the Bible. This guy really breaks it down perfectly. if you want the stats on these facts.

It's not religious. Just facts. I would love to spend all day writing it out. But the videos are easier and better than I can write.

This one has more stats


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