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@David
I seek the Giver of Life . The Creator. Whatever that is? That's what I connect to. It would be hilarious if I sought something partial to that. Many beings wanted to become god. Only 1 God became man. I know I haven't looked fully and completely into the Bible. But, it's possible that man has tried it's absolute best, with the help of the fallen, to kill The Word of God in every way imaginable. Leading many astray. It's illegal in 52 countries currently. WTF?
If you ever watch movies? There is a DVD called case for Christ by The Chicago Tribune editor Lee Strobel. The movie was made after the book sold over 10 million copies. He spent the better half of a decade, in his career, setting out do disprove Christianity. This guy was thorough! Anyway when you get to have a movie night? Check it out. I actually got to meet him. Real stubborn guy lol.
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Nikola Tesla was sure connected to something?
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What if there is not only self awareness? But a Creator, with a plan and placement? Or can that be ruled out completely?
Let me guess, we don't have evidence of that. Nor perfect information. And even though there is an infinite amount of stuff that we don't know. It is simply not possible that there is design behind creation\God.
Is that 100% fact?
@ GH "what if"
What if there are giant cosmic farting unicorns, what if my underpants are sentient, what if we are all imaginary...what if doesnt matter. When you start "I believe, therefore so must you"...then you better come up with some evidence, or you will get a verbal kickking right up the "whatif"
Great hope,
What if cows could fly? Such questions do not provide a road to truth. They are useless. A good question is one in which we might reasonably expect a clear answer, especially an answer that leads to other good questions. It is not an open-ended invitation for rank speculation, especially speculation rooted in ill-defined concepts and unproven claims. Those who ask the right questions often find the doors to hidden knowledge!
@Old man shouts ...
I don't want there to be a God. I want nothingness. That's the easiest and nicest idea I can imagine. But, my senses and experience and intuition and revelation have told me I can not simply just rule it out. There is far too much I don't know. The implications are as big as they get if God created this. So I have fun with the search. Never giving up on the hope and the possibilities.
@GH
There we go again. Try producing evidence. What, you cant? So its just your own mind running wild?
Try zen, the pursuit of the zero is very mind expanding.
Im not saying you should believe in anything. I'm curious on how are y'all so sure about no Creator exists? Because that is ultimate implications of all time. Life and death changing circumstances. Not like a farting unicorn would have incorruptible judgement and placement for who we are and the choices we made? Ultimate meaning and purpose. Lol
@ GHv
"Im not saying you should believe in anything. I'm curious on how are y'all so sure about no Creator exists? "
Again you tar everyone with the same brush of your erroneous assumptions.
Thereis no "y'all" or even "you all" we maybe atheists but the only thing we share is a lack of belief in god or gods. You must rid yourself of your pre suppositions before you type. Otherwise you look like a fool...
"Not like a farting unicorn would have incorruptible judgement and placement for who we are and the choices we made? " What if it did? Or my sentient underpants or a blue, hot rock? Without evidence all are just claims, like your god. Nonsensical and unprovable. Just asking "Whatif" is nonsensical. Anything can be "whatif".
You are back to typing woo after a very brief period of lucidity.
Now, answer my question as fair is fair...why do you need a god?
" I'm curious on how are y'all so sure about no Creator exists?"
Stop telling atheists what they think and how sure they are, and show something anything to demonstrate a shred of objective evidence for a deity. I guarantee I'm no more sure Jesus is a myth that you are that Zeus or Apollo are not real.
I didn't even want this life. I'm sure there's countless millions that are in the same boat with me. But here we are. Somehow we are here. Some with far shittier placements than others. How can a person be so sure that there isn't a plan for all of this? Like is there a prepared response if when you die? God just so happens to be there? How is that totally completely 100% impossible?
" How can a person be so sure that there isn't a plan for all of this?"
Again you're not understanding the burden of proof, no one needs to be sure that a claim is wrong to disbelieve it, it's enough that a claim has no objective evidence to support it. So again I ask what objective evidence can you demonstrate that this life is part of any plan?
Bear in mind it would necessarily be a plan where unimaginable suffering is ubiquitous for almost every living thing, continuously day in day out for billions of years, so it would rationally have to be either an unimaginably sadistic malevolent plan, or an unbelievably incompetent planner.
"God just so happens to be there? "
That would depend which god, have you prepared a little speech for Zeus and Apollo, Thor, Wotan, et al when you die?
"How is that totally completely 100% impossible?"
Who claimed it was 100% impossible? Unfalsifiable claims are easy to create and we can learn nothing from them. Can you prove with 100% certainty that there is not an invisible unicorn in front of you? Of course you can't, but does that fact mean you think it might be there? Or even worse believe it is there just because the claim is unfalsifiable and can't be disproved?
An unfalsifiable claim can't be disproved even if it is false, that's what the word means.
Ok I understand now. "Death is the road to awe". Thank you Sheldon. You have been very patient with me, and your responses have taught me the most. You have an amazing mind. Keep up the good work. I'm sorry to hear that Big Bang Theory TV show has been cancelled. It was such a hilarious show.
And some thoughts I had reading this exchange.
How can I know God is 100% impossible?
I cannot. I do not. However, if I were to take all available evidence that has been offered for last 2000 years, I come to conclusion that the probability that a god does not exist is so high, I choose to believe it does not exist. Besides, take a look at this post I made: God's Nastiest Turd.
Can you honestly tell me that the Christian God, who is supposed to omnibenevolent, actually is? Read those verses. Come to your own conclusion about The God Delusion (and it is a book by Richard Dawkins).
rmfr
Indeed the idea we can know anything with 100% certainty is epistemologically speaking impossible. Thus this is a red herring we have seen countless apologists use to reverse the burden of proof. As I say every time this argumentum ad ignorantiam fallacy is used, why would anyone believe a claim is valid because when they can know nothing about it, because it is unfalsifiable? unfalsifiable claims are easy to create, and teach us nothing. A more pertinent and objective point is always to ask "what evidence is there to support the claim" and can the claim be falsified if it is indeed false? If the answer to the first is no objective evidence can be demonstrated for a claim, and or the answer to the second is that there is no way to falsify the claim even if it were false, then on what basis can anyone belief it is valid?
A warm fuzzy feeling they get from believing it to be true?
The road towards truth is contingent on asking the right questions, something that every good scientist is keenly aware of. You appear to be asking all the wrong questions!
A question is useless in pursuing truth if:
1) The question has no prospect of an answer. Asking what is beyond this reality is not going to advance your knowledge. Who said that there even is a meaningful "beyond"?
2) The question is contingent on rank speculation. Asking why we are here is a meaningless question because it assumes an unproven agent who supposedly created us for some purpose. If such an agent is not clearly established, then it is silly to ask what his purpose was.
3) The question is rooted in confusion. Asking when a soul enters a baby/embryo is meaningless since it is rooted in the confused notion of a "soul." Truth cannot be reliably reached from a confused starting point.
4) The question puts more emphasis on speculation than on what we actually know. Asking if there is a design behind creation (note the suggestive word "creation") is a useless question. One, it would be very difficult if not impossible to test. With respect to this point, it is tied entirely to the rank speculation of an agent capable of such grand design while ignoring what we actually know about nature's laws--our best tested knowledge about reality. When "possible" becomes a substitute for "probable," then the road to truth has been lost.
Therefore, if you are interested in finding truth, ask questions that can be answered, meaning questions that have clearly defined terms, questions that not rooted in rank, unresolved speculation. Ask questions that point the way to other useful questions. Ask the right questions and you will gain a much better view of truth.
@Great Hope
You do not want this life? That is dangerous thinking. Perhaps you need to consider some counseling if you do not want this life, are you suicidal? This is one of the big big problems I have with religion, that stops me from being "well let people believe what they want to believe as long as it does not directly affect me."
You do not want this life at least in part because you think there is an afterlife, that is probably heaven. The only reason you do not immediately commit suicide so you can go to this much better "life" in "heaven" is because some human made the clever rule of "suicide is sin" but.. being a foot soldier in our "holy" war, and dying in war grants you access to heaven. (Some popular versions of religion say you get a bunch of willing virgins even!) Most atheist do not believe in any sort of afterlife is even remotely likely, so what do they do instead? They seize this life, they make the most of this life, they are not waiting around all their lives to die for some completely unproven idea that it is better in the "next life." Atheist are also unburdened from having to worship, guess at, try to please a confusing contradictory god and even more confusing/contradicting holy instruction book/text.
At least for myself, I can be very, very confident that there is no plan, no god, no afterlife. It is not 100% completely impossible, nothing is, but for all intents and useful purposes, it is 100%. How am I so confident? I done a lot of reading, research and exploration on my own. The evidence that man made up the god idea is overwhelming, the evidence that a god (any god) made man from an idea is limited to a few entirely philosophical non hard evidence theories that are all very weak.
I have yet to see a theist, and I post and read here a lot, and on other boards: a good argument for why their particular god and not one of thousands of other popular god ideas over the years. The best argument I have seen based on evidence is the Kesh Temple Hymm is the oldest surviving written text that talked of religion, ancient sumerians could say with evidence their god idea was "first." And every other god idea plagiarized and/or attempted to contradict theirs.
@LogicFTW
I used to be suicidal. Hoping for nothingness. No longer anymore. If you read my other post I went into great detail about it. I have seen a lot of suicide in my family and friends. Also growing up in Las Vegas suicide is as common as a slot machine. I don't know of any doctrine that covers suicide. Or if it's a sin or not? I think almost everything we do is sin lol.
Because y'all keep asking for the evidence and proof and documentation that a Google search would produce. I apologise, that I will only be "like the rest" and tell you if you want your own experience with The Giver of Life? YOU are going to have to do, what YOU need to do, for as long as it takes for YOU, to gain that experience. It's not something you are going to read. It's not something that you are going to command. Any pride or expectation will kill every revelation and or miracle. If someone just had words on a peice of paper that would have the formula for God? We wouldn't need God. We would need the paper. Can you see where I'm going with this?
Good to hear you are not suicidal anymore, I do now recall scanning some of your post you talking about that.
Seems rather dark if just about everything we do is sin. I also never cared for some religions saying we are "born in sin." Seems rather unfair to all of us, especially considering there is no proof for it.
I do agree everyone should do what they have to, need to and want to do, for as long as it takes for them, although I think we should never stop doing the things we have to need to, have to, and want to when it comes to life in general.
Seems to me a lot of people "NEED" the various holy books. And impart a great deal reverence towards these books, if I were to a particular holy book, use its pages as toilet paper, even if I offered to quickly replace the book with a near exact copy, many religious people would be very upset with the idea. Even though it is just ink on paper, made by a machine that creates thousands upon thousands of near exact copies of it in the space of a day.
It also seems the various holy books are the closest thing people have on a formula for their god. If we subtracted out the various books and literature on god, what are you left with? How would you start w/o them? Pure word of mouth memorized as best as possible from religious leaders? Same could be said for word of mouth, that cannot have the formula for god either right? Now what are we left with? Our own thoughts and conclusions? Well mine says there is no god. An easy conclusion to reach when a particular religion was not shoved down my throat when I was young and susceptible to outside unsupported suggestion.
@LogicFTW "How would you start w/o them? Pure word of mouth memorized as best as possible from religious leaders? "
That's just it. It's never been about other people, or words on a page. It's just you and God. That's it. That's it for every single person. If you want to know God? You will be led to anything and revelation will begin. You could pick up a spider Man comic and see one thing that you never saw before. Even though you read that same comic 1000 times. You could watch The Wizard of Oz and someone will say something different, and you'll catch a meaning. You'll go to the store and bump into a new acquaintance. Who later you'll meet for coffee. She will ask you some new questions in a light hearted manner that will make you answer them in a new way. You will walk outside and a butterfly will land on your nose giving you a minute of forgetting why you even went outside at all. Little by little, God will continue to show you little things. That you never would have seen. You will see little signs. You will have little gut feelings of intuition. You might even be inspired to write some stuff down in a journey journal. Possibly getting connected to the right people who will let you forget your old ways. Giving you a new outlook on life. Staying humble and growing in the possibilities rather than the definites.
Listen, If gaining and experience with God is at the forefront of your being. Leaving expectation at the door. You will not need a book with words printed in it. You will need new sight, and a new heart. Willing to experience whatever humble little revelations come to you. And only you. But, this is always the common denominator. You are not humble enough, you have expectations, or you flat out aren't willing to do what's necessary to gain that experience because you simply do not want to know The Giver of Life. Because then you would have no choice but to do it His way. Not yours. It's far better to not even try. Than to try just a little bit, find an experience, then turn your back on it. If you want your proof and evidence for the authority for deity? Get you nose out of a book and eyes off the internet. And go get it. That is, if your not afraid that it's possible that The Creator of life itself will show you the way? Possibly destroying everything you know. GO GET IT!!!
Ah donkey woo. No way. Never. Not gonna happen. Not possible. No way, no how. I need words on the interwebs before I'll ever do that!!! I'll go to the grave before I'll ever do that!!! I need gold tablets or emerald tablets or stone block carvings or a dusty book hidden in some underground city or ancient alien technology or an interdimensional being to pop up and tell me to write a new solid formula to proove it to me first before I'll ever do that!!! A life we didn't ask for and death with a choice made is not enough evidence. In a universe that we will never understand before history repeats.... Again... And again.... And again... I'll just wait for cold hard Rigamortis evidence that meets my expectations.
Because.........................................................................................................
I don't want to know God. Choice made!
There you go again, preaching a lot of woo woo without offering anything concrete.
@Great Hope
I can get a bit verbose, if you want me to make a short summary just let me know.
If that is truly what your religion is about, then we are not really talking about a religion anymore. If your definition of god is different then typical dictionary's, like: no worship required, and nothing involving other people required, I like your god idea a lot better than most god ideas. But we are kidding ourselves if you found your god idea in isolation.
Additionally if it is only your god you found w/o anyone else, what do you care if other people find their god idea? I am an atheist, but i do believe in the remote possibility of some sort of more intelligent or "greater" being than us humans that may have had a hand in the formation of life here on earth. But there is no reason to think this sort of greater being needs us to "find it/them" especially no reason to worship it, or expect some sort of "afterlife" from these possible "greater or more intelligent beings."
If you define the term "god" loosely enough I could even say I do have and found a god of sorts: our sun. Without the sun we most certainly would not be here, it is very powerful, it could burp in the direction of our planet and send the side of the planet facing the sun to the stone age, or with a bit more "emphasis" turn that side of the earth into a smoldering radioactive waste land and killing off all life on the surface of the earth within a few hours as the planet's atmosphere burns up. (Fortunately that does not seem to happen very often!)
I have seen rare/unlikely events that feel supernatural or spiritual. I remember as a little kid in grade school it became all the rage for a few days to make paper airplanes. Me and a bunch of other kids would try to build the best folded paper airplane possible that could fly far and strait(ish.) On the 2nd or 3rd day of this, we made our paper airplanes in anticipation of recess, all ran outside once recess started, I was one of the first one out (So excited about my new paper airplane design!) As I run out, I get outside just in time to see a mostly flat unfolded piece of paper get picked up off the ground by wind, and catch an updraft. The updraft carried that piece of paper aloft thousands of feet in the sky until it turned into a tiny speck that none of us could see anymore. All of us hyper, excited kids, sat and watched this piece of paper do so for at least a full minute, an eternity in hyper kids at recess time. Did I think it was god at the time? Of course not! I was too young to even begin to really understand the god idea many various religious push. (All very confusing especially to a little kid!) Did I later through my adult eyes relive the event? Ofcourse! I take away from that experience the awesome power of nature, of earth, of randomness.
I have had plenty of other events that made me question "how did that happen?" "What are the odds??" But do any of these events actually tie in anyway to someone's god idea? No way, life happens, it is far more likely some random rare event will happen to you then not over the course of a lifetime, that is how it works, we humans do like to make note and remember these strange events over the mundane everyday life events.
If I did that, I absolutely expect I would find a god idea, probably a god idea influenced by the various religions I am aware of as I try to make pieces fit.
A giver of life? Like I said before already found one. The sun. (I always had more respect for religions that worship the sun. At least that worshiping was somewhat practical and grounded a little closer to reality!)
Why do I have to it god's way? You say in the paragraphs above we each have to find our own way? Which is it?
I do strongly agree with: "Staying humble and growing in the possibilities rather than the definites." Although for me that does not mean "humble before god."
Off the internet and nose out of the book is a great way to discover life, discover nature and reality that surrounds us that we so often hideaway from. Don't think going outside will help me find your god idea or something close to it though.
Evidence towards what? Evidence towards your god idea? How is it evidence towards your god idea and not a thousand other god ideas including the dozen I just made up now and did not even define? Why can it not be just evidence that I am a complex being with a bit of self awareness? What choice are we talking about here exactly? The choice to "look for" your god idea?
It is true, we only understand a little bit of the universe, there is so much we do not know. I do not think our mere mortal selves with our current limitations ever could come close to even understanding the tiniest fraction of everything.
What do you mean by "before history repeats again and again?" Why do you think history will repeat?
Rigamortis evidence? Huh? Are you trying to be dramatic? I think what you are saying is someone that does not believe in something similar to your god idea will never be satisfied with any evidence within their lifetimes.
Unlike many other atheist I actually know exactly how I could be convinced of a god idea, more real, testable, tangible evidence showing your (or any!) popular god idea is real, then the evidence that shows that man created the various god idea strait from their head/imagination. So far, and believe me I have looked, the evidence is overwhelmingly in favor of the side of: "man created the various god ideas from their heads/imagination then god created man (and everything else as most religions depict it.)
I don't want to know God.
I would want to know all about a God if there was one, (something even with a very very! loose definition of god, I find extremely unlikely.) But do I want to "know" about your particular god idea out of the thousands of popular god ideas humans have come up with so far, no not really, I need a much better reason then: "well I found my god idea and I want you to find my god idea too!.. or at least something close to it."
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▮ Useful list on forum usage. A.R. Member since 2016. ▮
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@ Great Hope
"If you want your proof and evidence for the authority for deity? Get you nose out of a book and eyes off the internet.
This from someone who larded their posts with Youtube links and insisted the bible is a true account...irony much.
Anyway we are back to the feel good woo and not a lot of sense. I'm done with the assumptions and the fairy floss.
@Old man shouts ...
I know, right. I thought I was done days ago. I've learned so much. And people keep asking me questions. It would be rude to not respond, right? I posted like 5 or 6 vidoes as a response to a question that I was asked. If anyone took the time to watch them? They answered the question in context perfectly. If your done? Then move on to the next post. As I see there is traffic of 12,000 subscribers on this site. You'll have plenty of woo to go through. If you don't want to know The Giver of Life? Then I could have the exact formula with God appearing on my command. And it still wouldn't be enough for you. My thumb is going into another jar of peanut butter right now.
Thank you for your time
@ GH
"Then I could have the exact formula with God appearing on my command. And it still wouldn't be enough for you."
But you haven't got the exact formula? So we will never know.
After all these words, the woo phrases like "giver of Life". Finding god's message in a butterfly. Some serious pre-suppositionalism there buddy..ffs...and still not a skerrick, jot or tittle of proof or even a tad of evidence?
Just your singular and rather substance addled recollections of an experience?
Seriously?
Re read everything you have written...out loud....some sort of crazy right?
@Old man shouts ...
I read my last one to LogicFTW over and over about 10 times. It's the conclusion I was searching for. If you want to know God? You will be willing to experience it. Not letting anyone or anything come between you and God. Until you've experienced it? It will sound crazy. But, I guarantee you won't do it. You need some perfectly written document that has had no corruption of man come close to it. It doesn't exist. if it did? It would have been found by now. So just admit that you don't want to know God and go back to what you were doing. It's easy and simple.
Translation: If god is not talking to you, it is your fault!
@NYARLATHOTEP
Yes, if a person is not open to the possibilities. There is something blocking them. It's up to them to remove the block. God won't force His Love on you. What kind of love would that be?
magical thinking at its best
@NYARLATHOTEP
If you don't want to know God. Just say you don't want to know, and go back to doing what you were doing.
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