Well, people who worship God everyday, at some point of time become dependent on this special kind of power that they apparently receive from God. And, in many cases that I can name, it seems to work for them pretty well and of course they can say 'its for the best' if it doesn't.
In terms of science, we call it the PLACEBO EFFECT, which simply refers to a beneficial effect produced by the placebo drug, and that this beneficial property isn't attributed to the content of the drug, but to the strong belief or confidence of the patient in the mechanism itself. I myself have seen many a cases where mild bacterial diseases have been cured just by giving the patient literally water, saying that its the best medicine against the disease and the healing is quick. Now, I found it really unbelievable the first time I read about this, because it can really work sometimes.
Now, I would like to test something similar against the psychological edge, if any, that people get by believing in God. You all are welcome to point out any flaws below.
THE EXPERIMENT
If I ever had the chance to actually try this out, I would be pleased. So here goes
Take a 100 students, and these students must be very religious. Now, I don't know how many of you actually used to do this, or still do, but I used to pray before my exams so that I do well. So, lets also assume that these students pray very dearly before they give their exam papers.
Now, another requirement would be that these 100 selected students score almost same in every exam they give, that is, they are of equal intelligence.
Now, out of the 100 students, if somehow, I forbid or disallow 50 of them to say their prayers and write the paper. Maybe thats not possible, but say they didn't pray or simply DIDNT FOLLOW A PARTICULAR CUSTOM before their routine paper, I would like to compare the scores of these 2 groups later. Also assume that the 'luck factor' is negligible and that these students had equally worked for their exams.
Now, I don't know the results. But for me personally, I think that the students who did not follow their custom, in this case praying, MIGHT score less. Now you can apply this to anything if you think an exam is stupid.
Maybe a very religious player forgot to go to the church in the morning before a big game, as he always used to. Now I know some won't mind it, but what if they DEPEND ON IT SO GREATLY, BECAUSE I KNOW MANY WHO DO. what will his performance be like?
Richard Dawkins had showed a case where about 1800 patients, about to go coronary bypass, had been divided into 3 groups. One group received prayers and weren't told about it. The 2nd group received no prayers and didn't know about it. GROUP 3 WERE PEOPLE WHO KNEW THEY WERE BEING PRAYED FOR.
The result was that there was no difference between group 1 and group 2 people but GROUP 3 PEOPLE suffered significantly more complications than the people who did not know they were being prayed for.
The reason for this was given as the uncertainty among people who knew they were being prayed for. It made them wonder if their condition is that bad, and hence we have a slight loss of confidence, psychology comes into play.
Now, my proposed experiment is very different from this one, but the aim is the same, to test the role of psychology.
So, guys, first of all I want to know your views on the psychological face of 'A GOD'.
Next, I want you to point flaws in my experiment and the results, what you think personally.
Last, if you see something significant in the PRAYER EXPERIMENT, that I have written about at the last.
Cheers!
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Re: OP
...*face palm*... Aww shit...
Sure there may be flaws... are you doing it in a bungalow or a high rise?
Why don't atheist. and theists who enjoy making strident unevidenced claims get together, and just piss each other off, and leave the rest of us alone?
@sheldon
'unevidenced claims', I don't quite understand in this context
Clearly, if you understood it thne it is unlikely you'd be making such strident unevidenced claims, that was rather the point.
Just at first glance, this part seems very dubious.
@Nyarlathotep
What if in this whole world, I do find 100 such people. Anyways, I have stated that its practically very very difficult. But lets take a hypothetical path shall we
Your notion that similar test scores means equal intelligence is extremely controversial, IMO.
Worse; I don't understand why you are imposing this dubious requirement. It seems unnecessary. Just get rid of it.
That is a very twisted description of the placebo effect. First off, when working with the placebo effect, we are operating with the assumption that placebos don't cure anything. Or restated: by postulate, giving a placebo treatment is equivalent to doing nothing. It is done so other treatments can be compared to doing nothing (without letting anyone know they aren't receiving any treatment). But you've been discussing it as if it actually works. That is a pretty serious disconnect, IMO.
Now maybe it is just a language problem and you didn't mean to suggest such a thing. But in any case, I would make an effort to edit/remove any such suggestions, as it just makes you look like a crackpot.
1. Pray before exams
2. Sorted by General Exam Scores. Grades
3. Forbid 50% to say prayer
4. Compare Scores
HYPOTHESIS: IF RELIGIOUS STUDENTS ARE PREVENTED FROM PRAYING THEY WILL SCORE LOWER.
Richard Dawkins had showed a case where about 1800 patients, (This is a very popular PEW Research Study)
RE: Now, my proposed experiment is very different from this one, but the aim is the same, to test the role of psychology. (OOPS. To test the role of prayer on the overall scores of prayer on praying and non-praying test takers.
RE: UNINTELLIGIBLE SENTENCE: So, guys, first of all I want to know your views on the psychological face of 'A GOD'.
RE: YOU HAVE NO RESULTS: "Next, I want you to point flaws in my experiment and the results, what you think personally."
RE: HUH? "Last, if you see something significant in the PRAYER EXPERIMENT, that I have written about at the last." YOU WROTE ABOUT THE PEW RESEARCH STUDY AND YOUR OWN STUDY???
COMMENTS:
1. You would have to come up with a standardized test for all to take or your research wold be nullified. Multifactor General Knowledge Test (MJKT)
2. How would you respond to the assertion, "Some prayers are just more effective than other prayers?"
3. Your student selection process is weird. 100 students are not taking the same test prior to your test. You may want to test the range of A students who happen to be religious and pray before tests. (Attend Church twice a week or more?)
4. Get rid of the "Placebo Effect" stuff. Call it a prayer study.
5. How do you control for high 'A' students and low 'A' students? Presumably those with high A's will always score higher.
6. Comparing the groups as you have described them, does not take in economic factors, majors (Some majors really are smarter (HAVE DIFFERENT ABILITIES) than other majors or other intervening variables.
7. You can not compare the test you create to their last score on a history exam. The selection process is flawed. I think a better result would be to have to have a pre-test, post-test, format of some kind so you can compare individual student scores to themselves. (Rearrange the questions for the post-test but ask the same questions.) Make the assumption that everyone should score higher on the post-test as they have already taken it. Disallow prayer on the post-test, and then evaluate results of all students in the study. (Compare your results to a control group allowed to pray on both tests.)
THOSE ARE MY THOUGHTS.... I think a standardized, general knowledge pre-test, post-test, is less messy.
Problems -- "Self Reported Prayer." Students may pray when they say they didn't. They may pray at some point in the test. How would you control for this? By asking a religious student "Have you prayed yet?" or telling them "Remember do not pray" you are merely reminding them of prayer.
Good point. Perhaps a religious ritual would be better; something that you could be sure either happened or didn't happen.
/e But then you have the problem of creating a placebo religious ritual. Not sure how that would work.
@Nyarlathotep: Complete agreement.
I'll be honest, I did not even attempt to read the OP. Why bother? However, based on the responses I have been reading, I am guessing the writer of the OP seems to believe (or NOT believe, but know.... or maybe know but not believe?... or believes he knows and is not sure if he knows if he believes.. or-... oh, fuck it...).... seems to THINK there is some method to be able to detect if an individual is praying or not prior to taking one of the test tests... (or whatever)..... *snicker*..... *hand over mouth real quick*... *guffaw*... *straining not to laugh*.... *eyes squinched shut tightly*... *face turning red*... Bwaaaaaaaa-haaaaaa-haaaaaaa-haaaaaaaa! Seriously??? Am I inferring correctly on that?... *shaking head in amusement*... Oh-dear-lord... I'm not sure whether to continue laughing or sink into a pit of despair at the thought of somebody being that ridiculous while (supposedly) trying to be serious. Such a dilemma... *chuckle*... *frown*.... *chuckle*... *frown*...
For the OP...
Attachments
Attach Image/Video?:
1. Send 100 theists to the moon.
2. Tell them to pray.
3. Remove all space suit equipment.
4. See what happens.
Oh dear.......
Naw, do 50 with real spacesuits, and 50 with "placebo spacesuits".
Well, I've been out a long time. So let me start.
@Sheldon, I still dont understand what point your trying to make by saying that I have made unevidenced claims. I havent made any claims nowhere unless your looking for the word 'proposal', which seems out of your vocabulary, but its fine.
@Nyarlathotep yes your are quite right, test scores do not mean equal intelligence, nothing controversial in that. Its my bad. Lets modify that. But surely you can find a bunch of people who score the same right. When I was in school, there were around 4 people who used to score as well as me, as average ofcourse. I didnt mean robots.
Secondly, yes it is important to have this criteria because if I have a bright fellow and an average one, I think the bright one will score better without his rituals or not. So yeah, you need people of equal strength.
Next, you say at the end of your next post, and I quote, "you've been discussing it as if it actually works".I mean you have got to be kidding me, I dont want to send you thousands of links to scholarly articles where it has worked very well, specially against pain related problems. Yes, for many, it is not a cure, I agree.
However, in a very famous study in 2014, led by Kaptchuk, researchers discovered that the placebo was 50% as effective as the real drug to reduce pain after a migraine attack. And what are those painkillers doing, you think they are 'curing' that pain. So maybe that makes you look like a crackpot :))
@Cognistic, first of all thanks for atleast writing something. I've been to many forums, people in this forum really do not take anything seriously. They kind of throw it all to old school jokes. Anyways
First of all, I realized that religious rituals is much better than praying, so thats my fault. Modify that.
Well ofcourse I have no results and will probably never have, but thats why I have written WHAT YOU THINK about them personally, and so far, even if considered as a hypothetical question(which most of you are), none of you have actually elucidated on the possible outcome or your views.
Next, Im sorry Im not aware of the pew research so please educate me on that.
The placebo was just an introduction on how great a role psychology plays, so leave that out. And thats why I told to consider students of almost equal strength, so whats the matter with A's and B's, you havent read it thoroughly.
Yes excellent, pre tests, post tests, great.
@Tinman- brother, actually Im wondering whether to laugh or cry after reading your replies. Your completely messed up with your thoughts brother but no worries, you can always work up.
And ofcourse credits to those who did a good job of mocking. You guys looked pissed off with your work life but I get the frustration. Anyways, I thought this forum would be more literate and productive but there are people who are passing time. Thanks for all the answers anyways, specially to @Cognistic, whether he liked it or not, atleast he did debate it.
MY QUESTION STILL REMAINS TO ALL, EVEN IF ALL OF YOU THINK HYPOTHETICALLY, IS GOD A SOURCE OF A POSITIVE OR NEGATIVE PSYCHOLOGICAL SOURCE?
Cheers
@TheQuantumPhysicist:
RE: " I havent made any claims nowhere " (And that is not a claim.)
RE: "But surely you can find a bunch of people who score the same right." (And that's not a claim.)
RE: "When I was in school, there were around 4 people who used to score as well as me." (And that is not a claim.)
RE: " I didnt mean robots." (And that is not a claim either.)
RE: "people in this forum really do not take anything seriously." (It's not a claim. I make no claims. It's not a belief. It's knowledge.)
RE: "They kind of throw it all to old school jokes." (And though it sounds like a claim, it's not.)
RE: " I realized that religious rituals is much better than praying, so thats my fault. (But not a claim.)
RE: "Well ofcourse I have no results and will probably never have," (Because I am not making claims.)
RE: "I think the bright one will score better without his rituals or not. So yeah, you need people of equal strength. (No claim just fact.)
RE: "I dont want to send you thousands of links to scholarly articles (THAT MAKE CLAIMS) where it has worked very well, specially against pain related problems. (I make no claims.)
RE: "However, in a very famous study in 2014, led by Kaptchuk, researchers discovered that the placebo was 50% as effective as the real drug to reduce pain after a migraine attack." (I didn't claim that, they did.)
RE: So maybe that makes you look like a crackpot :)) (I said "maybe" and added :)) so it is not officially a claim.)
RE: " none of you have actually elucidated on the possible outcome or your views." (Not a claim.... just sayin!)
RE: "And thats why I told to consider students of almost equal strength, so whats the matter with A's and B's, you havent read it thoroughly." (I'm not really claiming that because you might have read it but I can't know anything for sure so it is not a claim.)
RE: @Tinman- brother, actually Im wondering whether to laugh or cry after reading your replies. Your completely messed up with your thoughts brother but no worries, you can always work up. (But I would never make a claim about such things.)
RE: I thought this forum would be more literate and productive but there are people who are passing time. (Just my thoughts, not an actual claim because I don't make claims.)
RE: IS GOD A SOURCE OF A POSITIVE OR NEGATIVE PSYCHOLOGICAL SOURCE? (Um..... the study was about prayer. Not god. ???? Obviously that is not a claim.) OH! BUT THE ANSWER TO THIS QUESTION IS ..... WAIT FOR IT................... "YES."
Your continued insistence on this ludicrous requirement does not bode well.
I gave you the benefit of the doubt before (assuming that English might not be your first language); but your doubling down on your fundamental misunderstanding of the placebo effect is shocking.
@Nyarlathotep- Man, Im actually quite amused by the fact that all you have done is simply say no, and then not even elaborate on it. You say that no, they shouldnt be of equal strength, then how will we get accurate results my friend.
And if you have something better on the placebo, do write about it and educate me, because till now all you have been saying is that no, your take on placebo is shocking blah blah, while you on the other hand, havent presented your ideas at all. So I dont see the sense of just saying no as an answer.
@Quan Re: "So I dont see the sense of just saying no as an answer."
My answer to that statement is, "NO!" Now go away, or I shall say, "NO!" a second time!
So the straw-manning has begun already? That didn't take long. Yeah, I didn't say that and I don't believe that. It would be nice if you would respond to what I've written, not what you want me to have written.
What I said is that it is an unnecessary requirement that you are burdening yourself with.
One of the purposes of statistics is to remove this kind of burden.
----------------------------------------------
I already discussed this with you:
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BTW: when did you stop being a Muslim?
@Cognostic- Dude your way too jobless, no offense. Atleast you could have taken off some time to actually understand the difference between a claim and a supposition(that is, if you've ever heard of the word).
Claim is a demand of ownership made for something (eg claim ownership, claim victory) while supposition is something that is supposed; an assumption made to account for known facts, conjecture.
As you have pointed out almost every single sentence from my post in association with the word 'claim', I mean, you dont even seem to make sense. Ofcourse I 'claim' when I show results for placebo working from a scholarly article, because that is something that can be trusted for, its as good as a fact. Its not a supposition.
The 100 bright students, them going without rituals, HOW MANY TIMES HAVE I WRITTEN HYPOTHETICAL, its a supposition, I corrected it in my 2nd post.
Godddd(ironically though), Im having such a great laugh at your post man, I mean leave the wordplay, its ok to be confused but how jobless are you really at writing sarcastically about making a claim after every sentence when it doesnt even make sense.
Nonetheless, Im sure your other friends will come in support of you, and then I'll have another laugh. Anyways bro, see you around
@TheQuantumPhysicist: re: Jobless: He he he he,,,,, I only work from 10AM to 3pm,,M~Th. On Friday I am off at 12. Wanna hear the great part? I get all Korean holidays off and I get One month in the summer and another month in the winter off. My house and utilities are paid for and.... well..... I live rather well. So, if I am jobless at all, it is because I chose a great career.
@TheQuantumPhysicist: CLAIM: "Dude your way too jobless"
SUPPOSITION: "Atleast you could have taken off some time to actually understand the difference between a claim and a supposition(that is, if you've ever heard of the word)."
CLAIM: "Claim is a demand of ownership made for something (eg claim ownership, claim victory) while supposition is something that is supposed; an assumption made to account for known facts, conjecture."
SUPPOSITION: "As you have pointed out almost every single sentence from my post in association with the word 'claim', I mean, you dont even seem to make sense."
SUPPOSITION: "Of course I 'claim' when I show results for placebo working from a scholarly article, because that is something that can be trusted for, its as good as a fact."
CLAIM: "Its not a supposition."
RANDOM INCOHERENT VERBIAGE: "The 100 bright students, them going without rituals, HOW MANY TIMES HAVE I WRITTEN HYPOTHETICAL, its a supposition, I corrected it in my 2nd post."
POORLY WRITTEN CLAIM: "Godddd(ironically though), Im having such a great laugh at your post man."
AN EXTREMELY POORLY WRITTEN QUESTIION: "I mean leave the wordplay, its ok to be confused but how jobless are you really at writing sarcastically about making a claim after every sentence when it doesnt even make sense."
TWO CLAIMS IN THE SAME SENTENCE: "Nonetheless, Im sure your other friends will come in support of you, and then I'll have another laugh."
SUPPOSITION: "Anyways bro, see you around."
@Cognostic, Dude your messed up more than I thought. Im not going to tell you about every sentence like a kid, I'll do a simple thing.
According to the dictionary, claim is a formally request or demand; say that one owns or has earned (something).
I'll take an example of my my last sentence.
"Nonetheless, Im sure your other friends will come in support of you, and then I'll have another laugh."
How the hell is this supposed to be CLAIM!!! Plus, the absolute riduculous thing is you added 2 claims, which makes it look even more like a disaster. Bro, your messed up, like really.
And your next post is going to classify this post as claims and suppositons, whatever. Im quite embarrased at myself at wasting time on a person who himself is at the height of joblessness. Bro, work up....
To come to that conclusion, presumably you looked the word up in a dictionary. Funny how you didn't notice the other usages that are in line with what Cognostic said. Even weirder is that in the dictionaries I checked; the way Cognostic used the word was the first listed definition (the most popular); suggesting you skipped over it to find a less common usage; apparently pretending you didn't read the definition that matches what Cognostic said.
Why someone would do such a thing is beyond me, but it looks incredibly dishonest, IMO.
@Quan Re: "@Cognostic, Dude your messed up more than I thought."
Oh, brother! Understatement of the YEAR. You don't know the half of it. Sheesh!... *rolling eyes*... Hey, just be happy you aren't stuck here with him full time like the rest of us poor bastards. At the very least, be thankful you are not on the rotational roster for tranquilizer rifle duty. Although, I admit, that duty is way better than being on the detail for cleaning Cog's cage. Just thinking about that makes me cringe.... *shudder*...
@ TM
Re: cleaning Cogs Cage...Hey dude it ain't so bad, decom suit, flamethrower and neat concentrated sulphuric seem to do the trick real quick. It is only a problem if you forget Cog is still in there.....But I am only CLAIMING that you understand...
@Old Man Re: "It is only a problem if you forget Cog is still in there."
...*look of realization*.... Ah-haaaa.... Well then, that certainly does explain that singed hairdo look he sports around from time to time. I always figured it was just Cog being Cog, and I certainly wasn't going to ask him about it.
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