A Question for ROYISM

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Seek3R's picture
A Question for ROYISM

Hi ROYISM,

Can you explain why anyone who leaves Islam is killed?

Is this not a violation of the universal human right to live life, the right to freedom of speech, freedom of opinion and free-will.

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ROYISM 's picture
@Seek3r

@Seek3r

Can you explain why anyone who leaves Islam is killed?

I agree there is a difference opinion on this issue among scholars. Looking at the evidences objectively, I support the view of those scholars who say that apostates should not be killed.

My evidences are these: The Quran categorically states that there is no compulsion in religion, and the prophet had given all the subjects under his rule full freedom of religion. Secondly, the prophet had let go of a bedium man who embraced islam and then apostated (Source: Sahih Bukhari 1784)

The position of those scholars who support it are based on hadith where apostates who committed treason against the state were killed. The penalty was mainly for treason, not apostasy.

Seek3R's picture
I assume you are aware of the

I assume you are aware of the prominent and authentic hadith which is the source of the fatwas and arguments that support the killing of such individuals.

To make things worse, the Quran spreads more hatred on such individuals who choose to practice their own free-will in deciding what they wish to follow, if anything at all.

So first, let me give the hadith references.

Allah's Apostle said, "The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Apostle, cannot be shed except in three cases: In Qisas for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (apostate) and leaves the Muslims."

— Sahih al-Bukhari, 9:83:17, see also Sahih Muslim, 16:4152, Sahih Muslim, 16:4154
Ali burnt some people and this news reached Ibn 'Abbas, who said, "Had I been in his place I would not have burnt them, as the Prophet said, 'Don't punish (anybody) with Allah's Punishment.' No doubt, I would have killed them, for the Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.'"

— Sahih al-Bukhari, 4:52:260
A man embraced Islam and then reverted back to Judaism. Mu'adh bin Jabal came and saw the man with Abu Musa. Mu'adh asked, "What is wrong with this (man)?" Abu Musa replied, "He embraced Islam and then reverted back to Judaism." Mu'adh said, "I will not sit down unless you kill him (as it is) the verdict of Allah and His Apostle."

— Sahih al-Bukhari, 9:89:271

And now as we are pretty clear that the Prophet of Islam was in solid support for the death of apostates, here are some Quranic verses which make things much more verse by spreading hatred of these individuals.

------------------

"He who disbelieves in Allah after his having believed, not he who is compelled while his heart is at rest on account of faith, but he who opens (his) breast to disbelief-- on these is the wrath of Allah, and they shall have a grievous chastisement."

— Quran 16:106

Grievous chastisement, the wrath of Allah. Definitely, an encouragement to kill the apostates even more because if Allah hates someone, the people will be glad to attempt to make Him happy by getting rid of those whom he despises.

"But those who reject Faith after they accepted it, and then go on adding to their defiance of Faith, – never will their repentance be accepted; for they are those who have (of set purpose) gone astray."

— Quran 3:90

Why have they gone far astray? Maybe in the eyes of Islam but in the eyes of others and themselves, they have taken a bold and courageous decision to exercise their free will and freedom to speech and opinions.

The way these apostates are described in Quran, which is the perfect book of Islam with words directly from Allah, don't you think this is going to make it easy for the scholars to pass such fatwas? And then, what about the hadith references with clear commands to kill a Muslim who discards his religion?

ROYISM 's picture
@Seek3r

@Seek3r

You said: Allah's Apostle said, "The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Apostle, cannot be shed except in three cases: In Qisas for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (apostate) and leaves the Muslims."

Yes, this is the hadith that people who support killing use. However, if you knew about how Islamic jurisprudence is drawn, you will know that you can’t make a ruling on just one hadith. You will have to analyze all the hadith and Quran pertaining to that issue.

That’s when the quranic axiom of ‘there is no compulsion in religion’ is considered. The hadith where a beduine is not executed in spite of his apostasy is considered. And let’s have a look at the other hadith you quoted below and it will become more clear.

Moreover, if you knew the backstory of this hadith, you will know that the prophet mentioned this when the jews of Medina were joining Islam in droves in the morning and recanting by evening with the sole intention of sowing confusion among alien tribes, who were considering embracing islam. It is to put an end to this malpractice that the prophet mentioned it.

You said: “— Sahih al-Bukhari, 9:83:17, see also Sahih Muslim, 16:4152, Sahih Muslim, 16:4154
Ali burnt some people and this news reached Ibn 'Abbas, who said, "Had I been in his place I would not have burnt them, as the Prophet said, 'Don't punish (anybody) with Allah's Punishment.' No doubt, I would have killed them, for the Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.'"

So, here we clearly see that this is something that happened after the time of the prophet. And here we have two sahabas who have disagreement, because Ali did not know that there is no punishing with fire. What I mean is that not everything that sahabas do can be taken as a ruling in Islam.

Secondly, the other sahaba agrees with the killing of the apostate. This could have arisen as a result of the misunderstanding of the ruling of the prophet, firstly. Or it could have been that the apostate had also committed treason against the state in addition to apostasy.

On a side note: When we talk of treason, we’ve got to understand that back in the day, only Muslims were conscripted in the army, as every war was looked at as Jihad. And the army was made of normal everyday muslims, who went back to their business once the war is over. In such a situation, a normal muslim is privy to the secrets of the state, and by apostating it’s easy for him pass on state secrets to the enemies.

Similarly with the other hadith regarding sabaha’s opinion.

Basically, what we need to understand is that there is no direct evidence for the killing of apostates (just for leaving the religion) from the example of the prophet. Not ONE! Secondly, there is a clear evidence where the prophet lets go of an apostate. The other examples you brought are from the life of the Sahabas, who I have shown could have been wrong in understanding a ruling.

And then regarding Quran:

Its’ true that apostates and disbelievers have a grievous punishment waiting for them in the hereafter. But that's only a matter of belief, because the punishment is from God in the next life. If you don’t believe it, why should you be worried?

A person who stingy and doesn’t feed the hungry is also going to be punished severely in the next life. But that doesn’t mean that if you refuse to give charity in this world, the Islamic caliph will execute you. There is no legal punishment for stinginess on earth.

So, your examples from quran are misplaced.

Seek3R's picture
"because the punishment is

"because the punishment is from God in the next life. If you don’t believe it, why should you be worried?"

You're cute.

Cognostic's picture
@ROYISM: "My evidences are

@ROYISM: "My evidences are these: The Quran categorically states that there is no compulsion in religion,"

Cherrypicked like a true fucking expert! Why don't you read the stinking Quaran so you will stop making utterly stupid comments.

RE: NO COMPULSION IN RELIGION (Same bullshit as the Christian faith.)

1. Allah (Himself) is an enemy to the disbelievers.--2:98 (So you can be an enemy if you want to... no compulsion here!)

2. They who disbelieve, and deny Our revelations, such are rightful Peoples of the Fire. They will abide therein." 2:39 (Let them fucking burn - no compulsion here!)

3. The curse of Allah is on disbelievers. 2:89 (But hey, you are the ones that have to live with yourselves - no compulsion here!)

4. Allah has revealed "clear tokens." Only evil people are disbelievers. 2:99 (But there is no compulsion for you to change)

5. Don't question anything Muhammed says or choose disbelief over faith. 2:108 (Less you burn forever, but no compulsion here!)

6. Allah will make disbelievers' lives miserable in this world and torture them forever after they die. 2:114 (But fuck them - no compulsion here!)

7. Those who disbelieve in the Quran, for whatever reason, are cursed by Allah, the angels, and men combined. So every good Muslim must join Allah and the angels in cursing nonbelievers. 2:161 (But don't feel becoming a Muslim is compelled. It's not. You can continue being hated and cursed if you want to,,,, It's your choice after all.)

8. Allah says that you must keep fighting until there is no more persecution and everyone on earth is a Muslim. Then you can stop killing people. 2:193a (But please do not feel compelled, After all if you don't convert to Islam, we will just kill you.)

9. Non-muslims will be punished by Allah for their nonbelief. 3:19 (But don't feel compelled to believe by any means!!)

10. Don't be friends with non-Muslims. They all hate you and want to ruin you. 3:118 (Shun them until they become believers but do not compel them! FUCKTARD Izzists)

11. Believers fight for Allah; disbelievers fight for the devil. So fight the minions of the devil. 4:76 (But do not compel them to become Muslim. Just kill them! )

12. Have no unbelieving friends. Kill the unbelievers wherever you find them. 4:89 (Do not compel them, KILL THEM!)

13. The disbelievers are an open enemy to you. 4:101 (But you can not compel them to convert, Just kill them.)

14. Muslims that make friends with disbelievers will face a doom prepared for them by Allah. 5:80 (Don't even try to be friends or compel them or you will burn in hell with them. Compelling is not allowed in Islam after all. Only Killing is allowed. Kill Kill Kill !!!)

15. Serve Allah or go to hell. 7:59 (But for God's sake don't feel compelled.)

16. Those who disbelieve will be gathered into hell. 8:36 (But don't feel compelled to change!)

17. Don't let the disbelievers think they can escape. They are your enemy and the enemy of Allah. 8:59-60 (They will convert to Islam or be killed but in no way should they feel compelled.)

18. If you enjoy life and ignore Muhammad's bullshit, Allah will torture you forever in the Fire after you die. 10:7-8 (But don't feel compelled!)

19. Allah has prepared a Fire for the disbelievers. When they want a shower, Allah will give them a shower of molten lead to burn their faces. 18:29 ( So go ahead and continue disbelieving - no compulsion here!)

20. FUCK ISLAM, MUHAMMAD, and ALLAH. ( FIMA ) Coincidence?

ROYISM 's picture
@Cognostic

@Cognostic

All your points fall under 2 categories.

1. They are talking about hellfire or punishments in the afterlife. How would that be a compulsion for a disbeliever, I don’t understand. If you don’t believe, then why should you care?

2. Verses revealed during war situations where it’s talking about fighting them/not being friends with them etc. And these are situations when the enemies of islam are fighting against it. However, there are many verses that explain the peaceful relations that one is supposed to have with disbelievers. SO, yes, there is no compulsion in religion.

Cognostic's picture
ROYISM: Rationalize all you

ROYISM: Rationalize all you like, there is no compulsion for you to wake up and smell the fucking roses. We are not threatening you with hell for your ignorance.

And Muhammad was the asshole who went about the Middle East forcing people to convert or die. How moronic are you willing to be?

Quran (8:38-39) - “Say to those who have disbelieved, if they cease (from disbelief) their past will be forgiven... And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism: i.e. worshipping others besides Allah) and the religion (worship) will all be for Allah Alone [in the whole of the world ]. But if they cease (worshipping others besides Allah), then certainly, Allah is All-Seer of what they do.” Translation from the Fucking Quran

Quran (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued." Suras 9 and 5 are the last major chapters that Muhammad narrated - hence abrogating what came before, including the oft-quoted verse 2:256 -"There is no compulsion in religion...".

Quran (9:5) "But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them..." This is one of the verses that abrogates 2:256, since prayer and charity are among the Five Pillars of Islam, as salat and zakat (see below). Some say that the textual context limits the application of this verse to non-Muslims in Arabia at the time of narration. While there is some merit to this, it does not change the fact that the Quran is sanctioning violence as a means of coercing religion.

Quran (9:11) - (Continued from above) "But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then are they your brethren in religion"In conjunction with the preceding passage, this confirms that Muhammad is speaking of conversion to Islam. Quran (9:56-57) - "And they swear by Allah that they are most surely of you, and they are not of you, but they are a people who are afraid (of you). If they could find a refuge or cave or a place to enter into, they would certainly have turned thereto, running away in all haste." This refers to people living with the Muslim tribe who may not be true believers, but must pretend to be in order to survive. They have no safe refuge to escape the Muslims. If Islam were a religion of peace, then why the fear?

Quran (2:193) - "And fight them until fitna is no more, and religion be only for Allah. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrong-doers." The key phrase here is to fight until "religion be only for Allah."

Qur'an (3:83) - "Are they seeking a religion other than Allah's, when every soul in the heavens and the earth has submitted to Him, willingly or by compulsion?" But didn't the earlier verse (2:256) state that there is "no compulsion in religion"? This contradiction is resolved by abrogation - where the later verse supersedes the earlier one.

https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/quran/forced-conversion.aspx

YOUR RATIONALIZATIONS ARE INANE ATTEMPTS AT AVOIDING REALITY AND RESPONSIBILITY.

Talyyn's picture
@Royism

@Royism

And these are situations when the enemies of islam are fighting against it. However, there are many verses that explain the peaceful relations that one is supposed to have with disbelievers. SO, yes, there is no compulsion in religion.

There is the implicit statement that somehow the side of islam is the good one. Also, since you did a remark of how we should provide verses to back up our arguments, how would it be nice for you to do the same for the "peaceful relations" with disbelievers.

Seek3R's picture
I refuse to waste my time on

I refuse to waste my time on reading the rest of your reply when the first part answers all my questions.

"However, if you knew about how Islamic jurisprudence is drawn, you will know that you can’t make a ruling on just one hadith. You will have to analyze all the hadith and Quran pertaining to that issue."

LMFAO, accept one hadith, ignore the other. Cute, beautiful and illiteracy overloaded.

If your Prophet the so-called GREATEST MAN and the LAST MESSENGER OF GOD said something and you are saying we can't rely on just one of said hadith, then well, not only was he a hypocrite for even saying such words despite of the fact they could be misunderstood, but you are also a hypocrite, along with the entire Islamic jurisdiction which cherry-picks the ahadith to make laws which they think are suitable.

ROYISM 's picture
@Seek3r

@Seek3r

You said: “If your Prophet the so-called GREATEST MAN and the LAST MESSENGER OF GOD said something and you are saying we can't rely on just one of said hadith, then well, not only was he a hypocrite for even saying such words despite of the fact they could be misunderstood,

That’s because you don’t know about traditions in Islam. You can take this argument even with the quran. There are verses in it, which give just the basic principle, and other verses that elaborate it further. It’s to be understood in its entirety. Obviously, in a religion that expounds laws for every walk of life from how to wear your shoes to how to treat prisoners of war in a multiplicity of situations… you can’t expect all rules to be dumped in one lump. There are basic principles, and elaborations that put them in perspective given a situation.

You said: “but you are also a hypocrite, along with the entire Islamic jurisdiction which cherry-picks the ahadith to make laws which they think are suitable.”

I am not cherrypicking hadith. You are doing that. Because I have not rejected the example you presented. I accept it… but I don’t just stop with it… I consider more traditions and lend this hadith more perspective.

Seek3R's picture
"That’s because you don’t

"That’s because you don’t know about traditions in Islam." Bullshit assumption.

"You said: “but you are also a hypocrite, along with the entire Islamic jurisdiction which cherry-picks the ahadith to make laws which they think are suitable.”

I am not cherrypicking hadith. You are doing that. Because I have not rejected the example you presented. I accept it… but I don’t just stop with it… I consider more traditions and lend this hadith more perspective."

No, I'm not. I'm giving you all the hadith which supports the death of apostates. There is no hadth which says DO NOT KILL THE APOSTATES, THEY HAVE FREE WILL. So in which criteria am I cherrypicking?

"There are verses in it, which give just the basic principle, and other verses that elaborate it further."

No need for elaboration when any sane man with basic knowledge of English can understand this sentence:

"'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him"

ROYISM 's picture
@Seek3r

@Seek3r

You said: “No, I'm not. I'm giving you all the hadith which supports the death of apostates. There is no hadth which says DO NOT KILL THE APOSTATES, THEY HAVE FREE WILL. So in which criteria am I cherrypicking?’

Just one quranic verse is enough. “There is no compulsion in religion.” That’s the basic principle. Now any hadith that comes in particular instances, apparently contradicting this one, has to be reconciled with it. IN fact there is one hadith where the prophet had set free a bedouine apostate, which I am sure you know about. So, how do you put it all in perspective, if you are not cherrypicking?

You said: “No need for elaboration when any sane man with basic knowledge of English can understand this sentence: "'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him"

This hadith comes in other versions too, like “A man who leaves Islam and engages in fighting against God and his Prophet shall be executed, crucified, or exiled.” Abu (Duwad, Sunan, 33, hadith 4339). So, it’s not just about apostating, but turning against the state. Further even in the version of the hadith that you quoted, it says “… the one who apostates and SPLITS OFF FROM HIS COMMUNICTY,” which scholars interpret as meaning someone who boycotts and challenges the community and its legitimate leadership, in other words indulge in an act of treason.

Cognostic's picture
@ROYISM: RE: "Just one

@ROYISM: RE: "Just one quranic verse is enough. " Spoken like a true cherry-picking theistic dweeb. Ignore every verse but the one you want to emphasize. (Dishonest, ignorant, un-insightful, and narrow minded to the point of delusion.) FIMA (Fuck Islam, Muhammad and Allah).

ROYISM 's picture
@Cognostic

@Cognostic

You said: "Just one quranic verse is enough. " Spoken like a true cherry-picking theistic dweeb. Ignore every verse but the one you want to emphasize.

Every ruling in Islam is based on a fundamental principle from which its contextualized interpretations are derived. Any application of the ruling in a given context must not contradict the larger principle. Here the larger principle is the quranic verse ‘There is no compulsion in religion.’ Now if there is a hadith that states that the one who left the religion must be killed – this on the face of it contradicts the principle. That’s when it’s proper contextualization from other hadith and the backstory of this hadith together enables a reconciliation of the principle and the ruling. That’s the right approach to understanding the religion. What I am telling you are the basics in the faith – not some extraordinary hermeneutics.

Cognostic's picture
@ROYISM: Every ruling in

@ROYISM: Every ruling in Islam is based on a fundamental principle from which its contextualized interpretations are derived.

So derive the thousands of verses that send non-believers to hell, punish them, blind them, turn them into apes, castrate them, into non-compulsion. Or are you just asserting the quaran is contradictory and you have no fucking idea at all how to use it?

No Compulsion --- BUT APOSTATES WILL BE KILLED

No Compulsion --- BUT HATE ALL JEWS AND CHRISTIANS ALLAH WILL TURN THEM INTO APES FOR THEIR DISBELIEF.

No Compulsion --- BUT IF YOU BELIEVE ANYTHING ELSE YOU ARE WRONG AND YOU WILL BURN IN HELL:
2:256: “There is no compulsion in religion. The right direction is henceforth distinct from error. And he who rejecteth false deities and believeth in Allah hath grasped a firm handhold which will never break. Allah is Hearer, Knower.”
2:257: “Allah is the protecting guardian of those who believe. He bringeth them out of darkness into light. As for those who disbelieve, their patrons are false deities. They bring them out of light into darkness. Such are the rightful owners of the Fire [of Hell]. They will abide therein [forever].”

No Compulsion --- BUT THERE IS A FIRE PREPARED FOR ALL DISBELIEVERS: THE POLICY OF THE QUARAN IS NOT "BELIEVE IT OR NOT," THE CLEARLY STATED POLICY IS "BELIEVE IT OR ELSE."
18:29: “Say: (It is) the truth from the Lord of you (all). Then whosoever will, let him believe, and whosoever will, let him disbelieve. Lo! We have prepared for disbelievers Fire. Its tent encloseth them. If they ask for showers, they will be showered with water like to molten lead which burneth the faces. Calamitous the drink and ill the resting-place!”

No Compulsion --- Because allah is forgiving and merciful ---- BUT IF YOU ARE NOT A BELIEVER, OVER 250 PASSAGES IN THE QUARAN CONDEMN YOU TO HORRIBLE DEATH AND ETERNAL SUFFERING. EVEN THE DISBELIEVERS WHO DO GOOD WILL SUFFER THESE HORRIBLE FATES: (5:5, 18:104-106, also 18:30, 33:19, 47:1, 47:32). THIS CLEARLY CONTRADICTS THE IDEA THAT THERE IS NO COMPULSION AND THAT ALLAH IS EITHER LOVING OR FORGIVING. IT REFUTES THE IDEA THAT ALLAH IS WISE OR JUST AS WELL.

No compulsion ---- BUT THE QUARAN IS CLEAR AND THE ONLY PATH TO TRUTH. CHOOSE IT NOT AND DIE A HORRIBLE DEATH. "Do not force anyone to become Muslim, for Islam is plain and clear, and its proofs and evidence are plain and clear. In other words, the truth of Islam is so obvious and clear that only a fool, an evil fool worthy of eternal damnation (2:257), would fail to accept its validity.

No compulsion ---- BUT IF YOU CAN NOT GRASP THIS IDEA IT IS ONLY BECAUSE YOU ARE A DISBELIEVER AND ALLAH IS PREVENTING YOU FROM BELIEVING: "Allah has set a seal on their hearts and on their hearings, (i.e. they are closed from accepting Allah’s Guidance), and on their eyes there is a covering. Theirs will be a great torment."

No compulsion ---- BUT according to the Koran, tolerant? Many verses in the Koran say that believers should strive against the disbelievers universally (e.g., Muslims should kill, shun, not be friends with, etc.,. the non-Muslims: fight/oppose/shun/strive against/regard as the enemy/never help/never befriend/sever family ties with/never compromise with/never obey/never forgive/chastise/curse/be ruthless toward/be stern toward/etc. [3:118; 3:28, 3:56; 3:87-88, 4:50, 4:63, 4:101, 4:139-140, 4:144, 5:54, 5:57, 8:65, 9:14, 9:23, 9:73-74, 9:123, 25:52, 28:86, 31:7, 33:48, 45:7-8, 48:28-29, 53:29, 58:5, 58:22, 60:1, 60:4, 60:10, 60:13, 63:6, 66:9, 68:8-9, 76:24, 84:24]. No statements in the Koran contradict this policy toward the disbelievers. BUT THERE IS CERTAINLY NO COMPULSION!!!

No compulsion ---- BUT YOU CAN QUESTION THE QUARAN AND ITS TEACHINGS --- OOPS --- NO YOU CAN'T ---- THE QUARAN STRICTLY FORBIDS THIS ---- The Koran forbids this (2:2). For example, those who malign the prophet and Allah will be cursed in this world and in the Hereafter (33:57); those who malign Muslims will be doomed (33:58). Those guilty of either hypocrisy, adultery or lechery, or sedition (alarmism; spreading false news), will be seized wherever they are found and slain with a (fierce) slaughter (33:60-62). For those transgressions, a brutal death seems like quite an excessive penalty by our modern standards. Nevertheless, 33:62 states that this harsh penalty had always been in accordance with Allah’s law, and that it would remain so. but there is certainly no compulsion.

Royism - pull your head out of your ass and smell the shit you are shoveling.

ROYISM 's picture
@Cognostic

@Cognostic

You said: “So derive the thousands of verses that send non-believers to hell, punish them, blind them, turn them into apes, castrate them, into non-compulsion.”

How can punishments in the hereafter be a compulsion for a non-believer? Because these things exist only if you believe. If you don’t believe in it, you are not compelled by it.

Secondly, about Islamic penal code. Penal codes are there for crimes such as murder, rape etc. This has got nothing to do with belief.

You said: “No Compulsion --- BUT APOSTATES WILL BE KILLED”

That’s the whole purpose of this thread. Does Islam prescribe death punishment for apostasy. My case is that it does not. So, until you can prove me otherwise, your position is just a blind assertion.

You said: “BUT HATE ALL JEWS AND CHRISTIANS ALLAH WILL TURN THEM INTO APES FOR THEIR DISBELIEF.”

Verses taken out of context. And nowhere does quran say that people were turned into apes for disbelief.

You said: 2:256: “There is no compulsion in religion. The right direction is henceforth distinct from error. And he who rejecteth false deities and believeth in Allah hath grasped a firm handhold which will never break. Allah is Hearer, Knower.”

If I come and tell you that Islam is your way to salvation. You are free to accept it, in which case you will be rewarded with paradise, or choose to reject it, in which case you have hellfire waiting for you… how would this be compulsion. If you are free to believe or disbelieve, there is no compulsion. But if I put a gun to your head and said, believe or you will die, then that would be compulsion. That’s exactly what the verse says you can’t do.

This would suffice to answer the rest of your examples.

Cognostic's picture
@:ROYISM: Quit writing

@:ROYISM: Quit writing fucktard bullshit and get an education. We are not discussing my beliefs. Sidrailing the discussion like you do with everyone else is a BULLSHIT tactic. Your FUCKING beliefs don't mean shit to me. ("How can punishments in the hereafter be a compulsion for a non-believer? Because these things exist only if you believe. If you don’t believe in it, you are not compelled by it.") I AM NOT COMPELLED BY YOUR BULLSHIT RELIGION OR YOUR DISHONEST TACTICS. YOU ARE JUST DEMONSTRATING YOUR OWN NARROW-MINDEDNESS AND IGNORANCE.

You stated "there is no compulsion in ISLAM. I have called you on your BULLSHIT and done so using your own FABRICATED, INANE, WORTHLESS, RELIGIOUS TEXT.

PENAL CODE HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH BELIEF? Shariah law has nothing to do with belief. HORSHSHIT!
"Brunei has introduced a tough Islamic penal code, known as Sharia law, sparking concern from the UN and the US. The BBC explains how the Sharia system works. Sharia law is Islam's legal system. It is derived from both the Koran, Islam's central text, and fatwas - the rulings of Islamic scholars.

Sharia literally means "the clear, well-trodden path to water". Sharia law acts as a code for living that all Muslims should adhere to, including prayers, fasting and donations to the poor. It aims to help Muslims understand how they should lead every aspect of their lives according to God's wishes. (IT IS NOT, NOR HAS IT EVER BEEN SEPARATE FROM ISLAM. ISLAM IS NOT JUST A RELIGION, IT IS A POLITICAL, SOCIAL, AND LEGAL IDEOLOGY. WHY IN THE FUCK DON'T YOU KNOW THIS?)

RE: Verses taken out of context. And nowhere does quran say that people were turned into apes for disbelief.. YOU CAN NOT TAKE HALF THE QUARAN OUT OF CONTEXT. WHAT IN THE FUCK ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? FIND ME A SET OF THREE CONSECUTIVE PAGES IN YOUR HOLY BOOK THAT IS NOT OFFENSIVE TO A NONBELIEVER. (I BET YOU CAN'T DO IT.)

RE: "If I come and tell you that Islam is your way to salvation. You are free to accept it, in which case you will be rewarded with paradise, or choose to reject it, in which case you have hellfire waiting for you… how would this be compulsion. "

How many times do you need this explained to you? Are you thick or just acting like a fucktard? If I hold a gun to your head and tell you to buy me a pizza or I will put a bullet in your head, I AM COMPELLING YOU TO BUY THE PIZZA. What in the hell don't you understand about this? I am compelling you whether or not you buy the pizza. You don't get to threaten people with all manner of horror and then pretend you are not compelling them THAT IS UTTER AND COMPLETE NONSENSE THAT ONLY AN IGNORANT BELIEVER COULD POSSIBLY ATTEST TO. WHAT IN THE HELL IS WRONG WITH YOU? YOU AREN'T EVEN A HUMAN BEING. HOW IN THE FUCK CAN YOU EVEN ATTEMPT TO JUSTIFY THREATENING PEOPLE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE AS YOU BELIEVE WITH ETERNAL DAMNATION AND ALL MANNER OF HORROR AND STILL ASSERT YOU ARE NOT COMPELLING THEM. WE CALL PEOPLE LIKE THIS "SELF CENTERED ASSHOLES."| SURELY YOU CAN SEE THE ERROR OF YOUR IGNORANT ASSERTIONS.

Cognostic's picture
ROYISM: RE: " And nowhere

ROYISM: RE: " And nowhere does quran say that people were turned into apes for disbelief.. "

HAVE YOU EVER READ THE QUARAN? SERIOUSLY, HOW ILL INFORMED ARE YOU?

1. Allah turned Sabbath-breaking Jews into apes to be despised and hated. All modern Jews are descendants of apes (or all modern apes are descendants of Sabbath-breaking Jews). 2:65-66

2. Allah turned Sabbath-breaking Jews into apes to be despised and hated. All modern Jews are descendants of apes (or all modern apes are descendants of Sabbath-breaking Jews). 2:65-66

3. Allah turns Jews into apes! 7:166

JEWS ARE NON-BELIEVERS, AS ARE CHRISTIANS. "Ramadan Religious Lesson By Muslim Brotherhood Spiritual Leader Sheikh Yousef Al-Qaradawi, Published By Qatari Government Daily: The Jews Opposed Muhammad, Therefore Allah Cursed Them And Turned Them Into Apes And Pigs; The Christians Were Stricken With Ideological Blindness And Strayed." According to Al-Qaradawi, the Jews stubbornly opposed the Prophet Muhammad and acted arrogantly and fanatically, and thus are deserving of Allah's wrath. He also quoted Quran 5:60, in which Allah turned the Jews into apes and pigs. With regard to the Christians, Al-Qaradawi said that they were stricken with ideological blindness and could not distinguish the truth of Islam from falsehood, and thus they had gone astray. (MEMRI : March 21, 2019, Special dispatch - 8076)

DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA AT ALL ABOUT HOW TO USE GOOGLE? YOU HAVE NO CLUE AT ALL WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT. NONE! OH! MY BAD! I SHOULD CONSIDER YOUR CULTURAL BELIEFS, "JEWS ARE THE CHILDREN OF APES AND NOT HUMAN." (A STANDARD ISLAMIC BELIEF!!!)

ROYISM 's picture
@Cognostic

@Cognostic

You said: How can punishments in the hereafter be a compulsion for a non-believer? Because these things exist only if you believe. If you don’t believe in it, you are not compelled by it."

That’s exactly what I am saying. Therefore for a non-believer these things are not a compulsion. The whole discussion in this thread is about how a “non-believer” is coerced into the faith, isn’t it?

You said: "Brunei has introduced a tough Islamic penal code, known as Sharia law, sparking concern from the UN and the US. The BBC explains how the Sharia system works. Sharia law is Islam's legal system. It is derived from both the Koran, Islam's central text, and fatwas - the rulings of Islamic scholars.

LOL!!! You are not even aware of how off-track you are going. Once again, this thread was initiated to show that Islam ‘compels non-believers to become believers.’ The Islamic penal code is not meant to force ‘non-believing’ people to accept ‘Islam.’ As in, you are not beheaded because you don’t believe in Allah or the prophet. Rather, you will be beheaded if you commit murder, whether you are a Muslim or otherwise. The punishment is for a crime, not for your belief. Yes,, there are ‘human rights’ debates going on around the Sharia. But so it is in the case of China and other legal systems, which uphold death penalty. That’s NOTHING to do with religious coercion.

You said: FIND ME A SET OF THREE CONSECUTIVE PAGES IN YOUR HOLY BOOK THAT IS NOT OFFENSIVE TO A NONBELIEVER. (I BET YOU CAN'T DO IT.)

You are also offending me and my beliefs every two sentences that you type! Does that mean you are forcing me to accept your worldview? When you hold a different view from another person and you spell it out in clear terms, it will be offensive to the other person. But that’s can’t be considered coercion.

RE: " If I hold a gun to your head and tell you to buy me a pizza or I will put a bullet in your head, I AM COMPELLING YOU TO BUY THE PIZZA. What in the hell don't you understand about this? I am compelling you whether or not you buy the pizza.”

If you told me that I would burn in hellfire if I DON’T get you a Pizza, I would give you a broad smile and carry on with my business. Because I know that your belief doesn’t affect me in any way. Whereas if you put a gun to my head and asked me to, I would be forced to get you a pizza. That’s the difference.

You said: “You don't get to threaten people with all manner of horror and then pretend you are not compelling them”

SO are you telling me that you are feeling compelled to accept Islam because of these horrible beliefs? If no, why not? Exactly because these are just beliefs, and nobody even with a modicum of commonsense would feel threatened by it as long as they have the freedom to believe it or not.

Leper's picture
@Cognostic

@Cognostic
"All modern Jews are descendants of apes (or all modern apes are descendants of Sabbath-breaking Jews). 2:65-66"

This is false. There is no such notion in the verse. It is misleading - out of ignorance or mischief - to write it this way as if that was what the verse said. Here's the verse literally translated 2:66 "So We made it a deterrent punishment for those (in) front (of) them and those after them and an admonition for those who fear (Allah)."

You know what is a deterrent I assume.

Cognostic's picture
@LEPER: YOU ARE A LIAR.

@LEPER: YOU ARE A LIAR. https://quran.com/2/65-66

"SAHIH INTERNATIONAL"
And you had already known about those who transgressed among you concerning the sabbath, and We said to them, "Be apes, despised." 2:65

Leper's picture
@Cognostic

@Cognostic

Right back at you - or can't you read?

It doesn't say anything about the descendants being apes Nor does it say they were told to be apes "because they were disbelievers".

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@Leper

@Leper

How do you know? According to you each verse has several approved versions. It's a bit humpy dumpty isn't It?

What is it, pick a meaning and use it to help construct a piss poor argument?

We have apologetics, hermeneutics, multiple 'approved' meanings...which means there are probably as many "unapproved" versions. No wonder you guys get confused about whether it is moral to fuck a 9 year old...or execute a homosexual, or beat a woman who was raped, for the crime of adultery....I'm surprised you can stop your heads spinning long enough to remember ypur names...

CyberLN's picture
Methinks I found a nice photo

Methinks I found a nice photo of Leper.

Attachments

Attach Image/Video?: 

Yes
Leper's picture
Thank you, @CyberLN, I didn't

Thank you, @CyberLN, I didn't quite understand what it meant before. Now I do.

Sheldon's picture
CyberLN "Methinks I found a

CyberLN "Methinks I found a nice photo of Leper."

It's good Cyber, but I was picturing a larger head if I'm honest.

Cognostic's picture
@Leper: So any

@Leper: So any interpretation that does not agree with your Bullshit is wrong? Grow the hell up. The Quaran is a book of hatred, killing, and jingoistic stupidity. You were given clear quotes and references for the filth the quaran spreads and now you are just in denial.

Tin-Man's picture
@Seek3R Re: ROYISM - "That

@Seek3R Re: ROYISM - "That’s because you don’t know about traditions in Islam."

Hey there, Seek. Dude, you are doing a great job here. Just wanted to let you know real quick.... *thumbs up*... Also, hope you don't mind if I step in for just a little bit, but when I read the mentioned remark I could not let it slip by without a response. Oh, and if I happen to be a bit inaccurate on anything that follows, I am sincerely sorry, and please correct any errors I make....

Yo. Roy. Ummm... Please allow me to give you a quick heads-up on a tiny little snippet of information that MIGHT just actually keep you from swallowing your entire foot and choking on your leg that follows it. Our buddy Seek3R here was actually born and raised in a Muslim family in a PREDOMINANTLY ISLAMIC country. And unless I am mistaken or something has changed, he pretty much lives in fear for his life and risks alienation from his own family because he now no longer believes in your imaginary god or your homophobic pedophile prophet. As such, I find it to be incredibly IGNORANT of YOU to tell HIM that he does not know about Islam traditions. Arrogance much? Has it ever occurred to you there may be people on this site who are actually WAY more familiar with Islam than you have ever been or ever will be? I mean, it is bad enough that you are in full support of pedophilia and the brutal execution of homosexuals. You have made that very clear for everybody on this site to see. In a way, I suppose I should be thanking you for that, for it allows others to see exactly how insidious your religion truly is. But even beyond that, though, you also have the cajones to make statements such as that as if you are the only TRUE Muslim on the planet who can properly educate us filthy atheist swine in the ways of your glorious Allah. And because Seek3R is a bigger and better man (and human) than you can ever hope to be, he would not stoop so low as to tell you these things himself. So, guess what.... That is why I am here to tell you these things on his behalf... *fake grin*...

Again, Seek, I hope you don't think I am out of line by stepping in on this. It is just difficult for me to allow such things to go unchecked if it is within my ability to call somebody out on their bullshit. Keep up the good work, dude.

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ TM

@ TM

Well said Tin Man. I totally concur.

ROYISM 's picture
@Tin Man

@Tin Man

You said: “Our buddy Seek3R here was actually born and raised in a Muslim family in a PREDOMINANTLY ISLAMIC country.”

So what? Someone can be born in a family of scientists and yet be a hardcore creationist! Would that lend any credence to his arguments against evolution???? It’s what you bring to the table that matters, not where you were raised. Why, Watchman is well versed in the teachings of Islam too! He didn’t have to be a former Muslim for that.

You said: “And because Seek3R is a bigger and better man (and human) than you can ever hope to be, he would not stoop so low as to tell you these things himself”

I don’t know what your standard of stooping low is. In my standard, calling people names definitely is one criteria. And he called me a ‘hypocrite’ in addition to a stream of expletives punctuating his statements. I don’t indulge in such things. But frankly, I don’t mind. However, if you are going to be talking of stature, honor and stuff like that, I find it wanting.

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