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I actually do agree that religion is making the world a terrible place. So is irreligion. Moral conformity and self discovery or trying to be good and trying to make yourself happy are not what Jesus of Nazareth taught.
"So is irreligion"
The difference being that those who are irreligious do not do terrible things in the name of irreligion. Religious people do terrible things in the name of religion all the time.
And, again, I'm a moral nihilist. The words good, bad, and evil mean nothing to me.
Actually I’m glad you brought up evidence for the existence of God. Don’t know if you’re familiar with the Kalam cosmological argument for the existence of God based on our current understanding of the universe as having a beginning? Or the moral argument for the existence of God? If you’re interested I could explain them to you or provide relevant links to websites.
Issues:
A: I belive the universe is in a state of infinite regression, explaining both its beginning, middle, and end, before beginning again as a result of the end. Ad infinitum.
B: I am a moral nihilist, which means I do not think moral codes of any group have any truth value whatsoever, being man-made.
"Moral nihilism, also known as ethical nihilism, is the meta-ethical view that morality does not exist as something inherent to objective reality; therefore no action is necessarily preferable to any other."
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nihilism
I'm also an existential nihilist.
A religion can not be rightly judged by looking at those who don’t rightly follow it. Irreligious people also do terrible things, but if you are nihilist these things are not really terrible. They just are. I’m guessing if evil is done directly to you, like someone steals something from you then it is difficult for you to maintain a belief that it does not exist.
See above.
Discere, when you use the word terrible are you meaning terribly bad?
No. I meant things that, from your point of view, actions that are "bad". Or "evil".
On what evidence do you base your belief that the universe is eternal?
This universe is not eternal. It's also not likely to be the first.
Consider this idea for a moment : The universe begins in a firey flurry of energy expanding out from a single point: a big bang. It exists for about 10 to the hundredth power years, or ten with a hundred zeroes after it.
As stars die out towards the end, more and more black holes are created as a result of the deaths of large stars.
Eventually, these black holes are brought together, coelesing into a single larger than comprehend able black whole. The entire universe begins to be absorbed by this black hole : a Big Crunch.
Eventually, it has sucked in so much matter that it can no longer compact the matter absorbed.
The black hole blasts open, releasing all of its stored energy in a sudden, firey flurry.
The new Big Bang, creating a new universe out of the energy from the one before.
Then the cycle repeats.
We could potentially be in universe 5, universe 38, universe 10,087 or even universe 10000000000000000000000.
Thats what seems most likely to me, anyway.
@Discere
Absolutely. That's what I believe too. If you can imagine that, then perhaps you can go a stage further and see that once those other universes have formed, and start creating other universes, it's a closed circle with no beginning or end. Therefore, no need for a prime mover. And I know there are lots of people who would argue with that, and not just theists. We don't have all the answers yet, but we will.
Do you think there are any actions which are always morally wrong such as torturing children for fun?
The very basics of the Kalam cosmological argument are that all of the scientific evidence we currently have indicates that the universe had a beginning. Something cannot come from nothing. The universe is something. The origin of the universe must exist outside of the universe, that is outside of space, time, matter, or energy. Basically the Big Bang needs a big banger.
http://crossexamined.org/does-god-exist/#toggle-id-4
"Something cannot come from nothing" Your bible says that your god did.
Keith the Protestant Christian Bible does not make that claim. The Christian belief is that God is eternal. He has always existed.
Keith, here is the moral argument for the existence of God. What do you think?
http://crossexamined.org/312/
Discere do you have any evidence for your claim that the universe is eternal? Current scientific consensus is that the universe had a beginning. Also the existence of time seems to be a problem in this view because there cannot be and infinite regression of days otherwise we would never get to today. If current scientific thinking is correct then space time matter and energy all began in the same moment. The universe which is something cannot come from nothing. The universe is not eternal. An eternal creator more rationally explains the existence of the universe.
Go read my post on the previous page.
So what caused the first universe?
Impossible to know: We don't have any kind of instrumentation or devices that can pick up any data from before our universe, to my knowledge. Getting information about a previous universe might even be a truly impossible task, as any information from the preceeding universe would likely have been lost in transition.
As the commercials for Tootsie Roll pops go: "The world may never know."
Are you implying that in order to know anything we need to use scientific means? Did you read the article on the cosmological argument.
In order to say that it’s impossible to know something one needs to have enough knowledge about that thing to make the claim. Therefore this is a self defeating statement.
Theology cannot be used as a replacement for science. Any attempt to say otherwise would allow me to pull out the old "God of the gaps" argument.
Consider the claim that objective truth can only be known through science. This is not an objective truth that is testable using the scientific method. It is a philosophical claim. I did not assert that theology can replace science. Science is not at odds with God. Science can be used to discover knowledge about the universe and the things it contains. Science cannot be used to measure or discover something that necessarily exists outside of the universe. We can see some of gods effects inside the universe like the impossibly precise nature of the gravitational constant. Trying to use the scientific method to prove the existence of God apart from philosophical logic is a category error. It’s like saying I can measure my love for a relative on the Fahrenheit scale.
I'll say what I've said before : If science can explain something perfectly well on its own, there is no need for a secondary explanation. No need for a god.
You may as well stop here. I don't call my particular bit of Atheism "Unwavering Nonbelief" for nothing. You can't win. Not with me, anyways.
Do you see how your prior statement was self defeating?
So in your view if God does exist, you wouldn’t believe in him anyway? My goal is not to win an argument or conversation, but to search for truth. I believe it is rationally and evidentially true beyond a reasonable doubt that God does exist. An untestable theory about what might explain away God is a sort of science of the gaps argument. If your goal is not to believe true things but to be unwavering in a particular belief then I agree we should stop. I enjoyed our dialogue. A consistent skeptic should be skeptical of their unwavering skepticism.
I'm just saying that there is nothing you could do to sway me. That's not to say I couldn't be swayed: it would take more than the opinions and efforts of another human being to do it though.
If it was true that God exists , would you believe it? If the answer is anything but yes, you might consider that your mind is not open to knowing truth.
Discere, objective truth exists. To say otherwise is a contradiction, Most people are not on a truth quest but are on a happiness quest. Myself included sometimes. If you seek the Truth you will find it. The Christian belief is that man was created with an ever lasting soul. What we choose on earth will have consequences for the rest of our existence. There are only two religions we can worship the creator or the created. I agree I can’t in one or 1000 days change your worldview. I wouldn’t want to. I want you to believe true things because you believe them. This is important because truth corresponds with reality. If God exists we should seek him. If he doesn’t exist, nothing we do matters.
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