Donating = Loving
Bringing you atheist articles and building active godless communities takes hundreds of hours and resources each month. If you find any joy or stimulation at Atheist Republic, please consider becoming a Supporting Member with a recurring monthly donation of your choosing, between a cup of tea and a good dinner.
Log in or create an account to join the discussions on the Atheist Republic forums.
Donating = Loving
Bringing you atheist articles and building active godless communities takes hundreds of hours and resources each month. If you find any joy or stimulation at Atheist Republic, please consider becoming a Supporting Member with a recurring monthly donation of your choosing, between a cup of tea and a good dinner.
Donating = Loving
Bringing you atheist articles and building active godless communities takes hundreds of hours and resources each month. If you find any joy or stimulation at Atheist Republic, please consider becoming a Supporting Member with a recurring monthly donation of your choosing, between a cup of tea and a good dinner.
FREE E-BOOKS
Get the book "Why There Is No God" and one more book for FREE!
Sign up below for the Atheist Republic Newsletter to get the books.
Record Your Message!
Record your voice here for it to be aired on the Atheist Republic Voicemails Podcast.
Send us your views and opinions, your personal stories, messages of support, comments on recent news, or any comments you would like to share about your part of the world.
Note : By clicking record you are allowing us to broadcast your message on any of our platforms.
Affiliate Disclaimer
Links to atheist related books, shirts and movies and other atheism related products are affiliate links.
All proceeds will go to keeping the Atheist Republic website up and running; providing resources, advocacy, community tools and encouragement to atheists all over the world.
@Arakish Re: "A Zakir Naik video? That guy is about as intelligent as toothpick."
Now, Arakish, that's not very nice. You shouldn't go around insulting toothpicks like that.
Why should I waste ten minutes of my time accommodating you? So far I have seen some of your statements display complete ignorance of simple physics (iron ... wow), evasiveness, and backtracking. You need to earn some respect before you can convince me to do anything.
But I always leave doors open. If you can prove to me that you watch this video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIF13tppRCs
I will watch yours.
I loved that series so much I bought the DVD set.
Much better than anything Zakir Naik.
rmfr
@sheldon
"We weren't made from water though, we weren't made at all unless someone can demonstrate proper evidence". Please see my above reply to Sapporo
@Greensnake
"I get it. If we find something totally unscientific, like the moon splitting in half, you just call it a miracle!". False, because the Quran nor the scholars ever categorized the splitting of the moon as a scientific revelation/fact. It was revealed as a miracle and is regarded by all as a miracle. If you want to try and change facts to suit you in order to try and "win" an argument then feel free to do so. My challenge was about science, not miracles. You cant classify the splitting of the moon as science when its not even classified as such by the Quran itself or by its scholars.
Man in search o...,
You missed the point! The fact that the Quran calls it a miracle doesn't change anything. It's still an unscientific claim and the fact that it gets labeled as a miracle doesn't change anything. Science is like an anchor chain. All the links have to be there or the anchor is lost! The fact that a missing link is called a "miracle" doesn't prevent the anchor from being lost. Logic requires that you use science consistently or abandon it altogether. Science and miracles don't mix! Go one way or the other, but don't mix them and pretend that you are doing science.
@sheldon
"You don't get to dictate what people can discuss," while i cant dictate or force anyone to say or do anything, common courtesy is to respect the "rules" laid out in the thread as long as they are not something ridiculous or bias. The "rules" are lets keep this entire thread and discussion strictly science. Science should be something we can all agree on
@Man in search.... Re: "...Science should be something we can all agree on"
As far as I can tell so far, pretty much everybody else on here has fairly well agreed on science. For some strange reason, however, you seem to have trouble keeping hold of it in those big green hulky hands of yours. Granted, some of it can be a little slippery sometimes, I agree. And I imagine those huge hands do not make holding delicate objects an easy task. Maybe you should consider keeping a towel handy to wipe your hands from time to time.
@Jared
"Being right by accident is not the same as a revealed truth. Most the fact claims of any given religious text are basic, and a rudimentary understanding of them was present in the populace." I agree with what you said but there's a difference between ""Being right by accident" which will also mean being wrong at times as well versus being right 100% of the time. Please listen and watch the video below and let me know what you think
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RuZh8Tt8v-A
Here's the thing. There's no discernible difference between being right by accident and having truths revealed by a God. Without actual evidence to support your claim, it's just babble. Anyone can just say a happy accident was intentional. But when you assume, right from the start, that it was the work of God, you ignore the actual scientific process. So essentially, this whole thread is pointless. Find some objective evidence for Allah, and then we can discuss whether or not he gives two shits about science.
@Sheldon
"If the humans who wrote the koran knew something modern science didn't discover for centuries, and we can't explain how, all we have is something we can't explain, it does not represent objective evidence for a deity." Watch the video i posted above to Jared and you will see what the Quran revealed 1400ish years before science knew about it. Science later discovered many things that were first brought by the Quran. Put the word or name of God aside for now, how do you explain that?
Man in search o...,
As I have already stated, it's the old game of 20-20 hindsight. Nostradamus played the same game with his mystery verses. Add to it wishful interpretation on steroids and you have the Muslim claim of modern science revealed in the Quran. The few examples that I have actually looked at were so pathetic that I concluded that I was wasting my time!
@Sheldon
"it's clear that a religious book claims this, it's also wrong as there are also natural deposits of iron on the earth. Nothing supernatural and no deity is required for a meteorite to hit the earth." Thank you for bringing this up and this goes well in to my next point. As i said the Quran has 0 contradictions or scientific inaccuracies that i have yet to see or be proven by any scientist. While the Quran has many scientifically accurate verses its not a book of science but a book of signs. What that means is not only do we need to use our intellect but also our rational. We now know that the center of the earth is full of iron, you might say "yeah so what we ready knew that" The Quran has 114 chapters and chapter 57 (the middle) is call hadid which means Iron. Why did the author of a book written over 1400 years ago specifically place that chapter in the very middle of the book? Even though you will say this is not science but this is a sign from the author of the book. Many signs such as these were not known or discovered until recently (about 80-100 years ago). So how will you explain this? Chance?
Coincidence. Duh. Not that spectacular.
The word Psalm can be found in the letters of William Shakespeare. In Psalm 46, the 46th word is shake, and the 46th word from the bottom is spear, in the King James translation. The King James bible was first published when Shakespeare, who also worked to translate several chapters of Psalms, was 46 years old.
Coincidence? Yes. Does it prove anything? No. Does your far less impressive coincidence prove anything? Nope.
@Algebe
And I think you claimed that the Quran contained scientific knowledge that could only have been known to its author through miraculous revelation. As soon as I challenged that notion with specific examples, you fall back on the excuse that a reference was only a "metaphor." Christians frequently employ the same tactic to explain away discrepancies in their Bible. "
You are asking the wrong question, if you want to say that i am looking for an excuse and calling it a metaphor go ahead. The Quran is full of metaphors as wells facts. Some of these metaphors were revealed to specific tribes at specific times to show the the severity of what was being discussed or revealed. Sorry, but if you want me to answer your verse by claiming its a scientific sign when it was revealed as a metaphor then you are asking the wrong question and have not done your due diligence to understand what you are even asking.
@Man in search:
The distinction between "science" and metaphor in the Quran seems to be quite arbitrary. The spider web example I cited is listed on https://www.islamreligion.com/category/34/scientific-miracles-of-holy-qu... as an example of the Quran anticipating modern science. Maybe the people there are from a different Muslim sect. If you're going to take this arbitrary line, perhaps you should provide some examples of what you consider to be unambiguous references to science in the Quran.
On the subject of iron, you commented: Iron is not natural to the earth. It did not form on the earth but came down to earth from outer space. This may sound strange but it’s true.
That's true of every single element on Earth. So why does your book only mention iron? Could it be that the metallurgical knowledge of the Quran author was limited to iron meteorites?
ACCIDENTAL DOUBLE POST DELETED
Man in search o...,
If you are going to claim a metaphor, you will have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt (from the context) that a literal interpretation won't do. Literal interpretation is the default in good translation. You stick with it unless compelled to accept some other usage. After all, if words can be deprived of their plain meaning unjustly, then the Quran, Bible, or any holy book, loses its authority. It becomes a smorgasbord for each person to interpret as they see fit!
Therefore, when you claim that the usage in a passage is a metaphor, prove it beyond a reasonable doubt! We are hardly required to accept a mere claim.
Nyarlathotep
"The Earth is more than 1/3 iron, by mass" I am not sure what your trying to say with that statement. If science has proven that fact and there's evidence for it, what is the problem?
The Quran never said anything to contradict what you said. Again i have no idea what you are trying to prove with that statement
Man in search o...,
Your claim was that iron is not natural to the earth. That the earth is 1/3 iron makes it pretty clear that iron was there from the start.
@chimp3
"I doubt very much that you are a scientist. Reading a book from the iron age does not qualify you to make scientific arguments.
Gods never know more than their creators know."
1) i never claimed to be a scientist
2) "Gods never know more than their creators know." All depends on what in your opinion qualifies as a god.
MISO: Gods are only opinions?
Man in search o...,
For someone who knows next to nothing about science you sure have this desire to rewrite astronomy and geology! When we look objectively at the various holy books, it is plain to see that their gods never rise above their times. (This talk of modern science in the Quran or the Bible is pure bunk. Give us, in their full context, your 3 best examples! We will quickly show you that any claim of modern science is a real stretch!)
@Nyarlathotep
"Now we find out he is reserving the right to discard any discrepancy by labeling it a metaphor or a miracle!"
alse, because the Quran nor the scholars ever categorized the splitting of the moon as a scientific revelation/fact. It was revealed as a miracle and is regarded by all as a miracle. If you want to try and change facts to suit you in order to try and "win" an argument then feel free to do so. My challenge was about science, not miracles. You cant classify the splitting of the moon as science when its not even classified as such by the Quran itself or by its scholars. So dont label what you want however you want in order to try and play with words and facts.
@Grinseed
"Vaguely worded verses from both the bible and the koran have for a long time been held up as evidence of scientific proof handed down from heaven, but only after the age of reason in the west and the rise of the scientific method."
I do not know about the bible but will reply from the Islamic perspective, you said that "only after the age of reason in the west and the rise of the scientific method."What did the scientific method prove when it came to the Quran? All it did was confirm what came 1400 years before it. There is nowhere that i have seen where the scientific method has proven anything in the Quran as false rather, all it did was prove everything as true.
"I recall a koran verse that stated the human body is made from a clot of blood and some bone, if I recall correctly, apologies for my faulty memory." no need to apologize as you are correct. Please see the video below, it will answer your comment in detail.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Fw0LS1MnfE
Man in search o...,
With your special, rose-colored glasses you never will see any errors in the Quran! It's only when you give up the excuses, the loopholes, the wishful thinking that you will begin to notice errors. If you fervently believe there are no errors, you cannot possible find them! It takes objective reasoning which is the only true road to truth.
The youtube vid has no subtitles or transcript. I am deaf and unable to use it. Thanks anyway.
@ Man in Search
I really dont have the time or patience to go through, once again that drivel called the Qu'ran. A mishmash of ill heard Jewish tales (all of which have been debunked) and then a litany of crimes against humanity supposedly written by a minor treacherous warlord and public peadophile.
I'm tired of listening to drivelling idiots claim their book is "holy" "perfect" the "revealed word of god". 20/20 hindsight is only evidence of your own fucking delusion. (channelling Myk here I think) One would think "god" would find a way to communicate sciency things like antisepsis, vaccination, blood clotting, plague prevention, mobile phones and electricity rather than a few vague and ultimately rubbery verses in a book recited by a warlord edited by several others and forced by rote on children. Does that make make some fucking sense? Your sciency thread is bullshit, your claims are jest, nonsense, fucking rubbish.
This guy has debunked your most famous "sciency" verses. Read him. Then for the love of Myk, get a fucking life.
http://www.atheistrepublic.com/blog/lee-m/science-quran
@watchman
Dude, almost every claim in the video you sent has been either 1) dis proven or 2) proven to be completely made up. I honestly suggest you do your research prior to post things that make you look silly. That video makes the same claim that people like david wood, sam shamoun and a few others tried bringing up in debates and got absolutely demolished.
Ill just point one out for you and let you research the rest of the claims. At 1:17 it says Muslims claim that the Quran is perfect in grammar and free in contradictions. 1) Who is the speaker and since when did he become an arabic linguistic expert to claim that 2) Non-Muslim arabs have also made the same claim against Muslims only to later be proven wrong. 3) Watch the video below 4) This is one of the old and lamest claims against Islam. In fact, the whole video is BS because if you look up those claims one by one and see what Muslim scholars have said about it in debates against the scholars of Judaism, Christianity and the Atheists scientist you will see that neither you nor this video provide anything of substance
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATDddM55oJc
@old man shout
"I really dont have the time " So then why are you here wasting your time and everyone else who has to read your post? If you don't have time or anything beneficial to add then please don't spam this thread with your nonsense.
Pages