THE STRAW GOD FALLACY

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Tin-Man's picture
@Old Man Re: "I promised my

@Old Man Re: "I promised my self I would not respond to Breezy's insufferably smug posts but crikey moses, his last answer here was just a full crock of self satisfied male-centric gobsmacking crapola.."

Yeah, I tried my best to resist and just let it pass. Couldn't do it, though. Bothered me too damn much.

ʝօɦռ 6IX ɮʀɛɛʐʏ's picture
I have no issues with your

I have no issues with your objections and concerns.

Sheldon's picture
Note the significant point

Note the significant point here, this is the religious once again telling other people how they HAVE to live their lives. No one is telling anyone they have to have an abortion or even how they have to feel about it, beyond pointing out the basic facts, but wheezy and his chums are trying to tell women what to do with their bodies. Next time someone pretends you're a militant atheist remember this is why you can't just leave them alone to believe, because they want to own everything you do from sex, what you eat and when, to what you wear religions think they have the right to dictate these decisions to you.

LogicFTW's picture
Thanks for your clarity on

Thanks for your clarity on what you consider an embryo to be. Or in general what we are talking about. You mentioned zygote, so I am going to assume you mean the moment the sperm successfully enters the egg, and the egg hardens to block other sperm, this egg/sperm combo is now a human, with all the rights of a human, as well as special rights that supersedes the mothers rights to her own body except in certain scenarios you personal feel where the mother is allowed to "murder the human." Thanks for giving me a more precise frame to work with.

1. You already stated, above your first point, (I think you still were a bit imprecise on the exact moment you consider a cell/group of cells human,) that when a sperm enters the egg and the egg hardens that is a human. I personally think it is pretty ridiculous to consider it a human at this point, instead of simply to potential to be human. But I said I would work with your definitions.

If a person were to break into a lab that contained 1000s of harvested female eggs (say an IVF clinic) and destroy the eggs, a crime, but not murder of 1000s of people. BUT, if the person were to first grab a bunch of sperm and spread it over these eggs wait a few minutes then destroy the now fertilized eggs that would now be 1st degree murder of thousands of human beings no different in the magnitude of crime then if someone were to go out and murder 1000's of kids/adults he never met before. That person would be a greater murder (by far!) then the guy that opened fire from the las vegas casino into the concert crowd below. Even though the loss to the mothers of those eggs was simply the lost of possibly, just a few of her eggs compared to the loss of a child the mother spent years raising.

Taking this to the next step, a common comparison used in debate, say there is a 12 year old kid, and a container containing 2 recently fertilized eggs both tied to the train tracks, the train is coming and you can only save either the kid or the 2 fertilized eggs in time. You say the 2 recently fertilized eggs are human, just like any other human. The logical conclusion is to save the 2 fertilized eggs and let the 12 year old kid die. Now you get to explain to the mother of the 12 year old why 2 fertilized eggs that has no memories, may never have made it to birth (via natural causes) is worth more than a child the mother spent over a decade raising, loving, has memories, is very much like the mother in that it has 2 arms 2 legs 2 eyes, can know fear and pain, have memories etc and was far more likely to have a long healthy life? Let's make it harder, let's say it is 9 people tied to the train tracks you could save or 10 fertilized eggs. The 9 people would not die right away but instead of slow agonizing deaths, obvious the 10 recently fertilized eggs will not experience any fear or pain. Still save the 10 eggs? To me that is a very twisted sense of the value of a fully developed human lifes over 10 "humans." If you want to tell me that they are still equivalent I would tell you need to seek serious help.

2. To be continued with next post.

LogicFTW's picture
2. I think we wrongly

2. I think we wrongly attribute value to size sometimes. A big person isn't worth more than small person, and a baby isn't worth a little less than a child. The difference between all of these is the number of cells in their body. So if an adult having many times more cells than a baby, doesn't devalue the babies worth, then an embryo doesn't lose value by just having 16 cells.

Your right, size is not really the issue, I was simplifying, I meant complexity. It is obvious to anyone a full grown human is far more complex than a zygote. With memories, feelings, central nervous system organs working in concert, capable of contributing to reproduction etc. To me complexity is a very important consideration on what is human and what is potential to be human. My definition of what a human is, is very different than yours.

3. Now, the above two points deal with the identity of the embryo. Now when we get to the topic of rights, things are bound to get difficult and confusing. In general I think women can do whatever they want with their bodies, so long as it doesn't hurt the child that's inside. That means no drinking alcohol, no smoking, no having their boyfriend hit them in the stomach with a bat, and definitely no unnecessary abortions.

"No unnecessary abortions." Who gets to decide that? You? Over the mother herself? You take control because you feel if the mother does not think like you do that a zygote or embryo is not a human, and they decide they don't want to be host, you need to step in and decide it is an "unnecessary abortion" and the woman gets to be host whether she wants to or not. Also this is a lack of consistency, you say this is a human, and has human rights to life and to kill one is murder. A zygote is the same as a 12 year old child in terms of being a human and rights. If you say well if the child is the product of incestual rape the mother is allowed to "murder" the human. Well, if they are the same, then a mother is also allowed to murder their 12 year old child that was the product of incestual rape. (Perhaps he did not know until the child was 12?) The point I am driving home here is even you consider a zygote to be different then a 12 year old child, that a child likely is afforded more rights then a zygote. Is more human than a zygote. Is greater than. Now your argument that a zygote is a human and afforded all rights disappears, you now must also agree a 12 year old child is greater than a zygote. You cant be the ultimate arbitrator that decides over the mother (of whom you never met) what stage a cluster of cells that contains 2 sets of dna has certain rights, you are not god. To decide for the mother just how "human" a cluster of cells within her she created and played host to is arrogance of the highest order over the mother.

If complications arise, and the baby threatens the mother's life, then go for it, have the abortion. Neither life is worth more than the other. If the mother wants to give birth, even if it kills her, but it saves the baby, then go for it too. There's no right/wrong choice here. As far as the 10% 90% scenario, I see abortion as a medical procedure, not a cosmetic procedure. In medicine, if you have to amputate legs, take out kidneys, separate conjoined twins even if one dies, do whatever is medically expedient. But no abortions unless its medically necessary. As far as rape goes, I think the circumstances are difficult and impossible to make a guilt-free decision with. But I do think its clear that the abortion won't fix or erase the rape. So have the abortion if you wish. I just see it as an emotional decision, not a logical one.

The inconsistency continues. You say all fertilized eggs are human and deserve full rights of humans. Equal. Therefore if they are equal, if a mother wants to apply the same rules to her 12 year old child she should be allowed to do so under your rules. Obviously not, there is a key distinction here, the mother is no longer the necessary host body to the human. That is key, that is critical. A core difference between a "human" zygote and a 12 year old is the 12 year old is not wholly dependent upon the mother. (Among many other obvious and great differences.)

Also an abortion does help fix rape in a small to large way for the victim of the rape, she does not have to carry the product of the rape, go through all the sickness and pain for an obviously unwanted child that was a product of the rape of which she had no choice in the matter. Yes, the zygote/fetus is innocent and wiping it out is unfair to it, but it does not care. Again pushing your definition of a human life (which under examination your definition is fluid) of what a human is, over the mother is arrogance. Anyones argument that a zygote is a full human deserving of all the rights of a human because they arbitrarily decided that a human definition expands to a fertilized egg even though its plainly obvious to anyone that cares to think for 2 seconds that a zygote with a few cells and 2 sets of dna is obviously not a full on human with full rights. A collection of cells that takes on many features of a human has an argument that may actually have some support without sounding ridiculous.

What explanation do you have that a freshly fertilized human female egg is also a full on human with all the same rights? My guess, none I am guessing if we do not bring your god into this.

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
Holy shite. I surprised

Holy shite. I surprised myself by reading everything in your post despite the length. It is well reasoned, unclever ( by that I mean comprehensible by an ordinary Joe like me) and solidly logical

Thank you for being here.

LogicFTW's picture
Thanks for the kind words Old

Thanks for the kind words Old man shouts clouds. I do like to present logically, even my forum name reflects that.

Tin-Man's picture
@LogicforTW

@LogicforTW

I have to chime in here and agree with Old Man. Your posts are fantastic. Great having you aboard.

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
Another candidate for the

Another candidate for the 1000 likes button...

LogicFTW's picture
I will temper my last post a

I will temper my last post a bit. The arrogance of many religious nuts who play god and dictate what women can do with their own bodies makes my blood boil a bit.

I feel a fetus, an embryo and even a zygote is very special and should be protected, cherished and deserves rights, increasing rights, especially after the point of viability outside the host mother. I just feel while this collection of cells is wholly reliant on the host body, the mothers rights should always come first, and should be able to decide for herself rather then follow the rules of a bunch of old men that are long dead on what they can or cannot do with their own bodies and a unique collection of cells within it that has the potential to be human.

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
Gotta get that 1000 like

Gotta get that 1000 like button mods....

ʝօɦռ 6IX ɮʀɛɛʐʏ's picture
I told you the topic of

Logic, I told you the topic of rights and choices gets difficult and confusion lol.

If I'm being honest, I couldn't care less who gets to decide on the abortion, flip a coin for all I care. I'm not a politician nor an activist, I'm a scientist. So let's make a deal. Let's put this conversation on the back burner. It does nothing but make sensitive people upset lol.

Let's focus on whether or not an embryo is a human life first, and all the foundational issues. Once that's settled, then we can reopen this conversation. It doesn't make sense to talk about what role having a womb plays, if we can't agree if an abortion is just popping a pimple, or killing a human being.

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I think the problem still lies with you attaching worth to the number of cells (complexity), without explaining why. A zygote is too small to care, in your opinion, whereas an adult deserves to be cared about, because of complexity and cell count. I call it emotional reductionism.

You shouldn't use size, number and complexity, unless you're going to apply them across the board. If you want me to agree that killing a child is worse than killing a zygote, then you have to agree that killing an adult is worse than killing a baby. You can't use the size of a zygote against it, but then make an exception for everything else.

I do want to make sure you understand what you are asking with your train scenario. Because you're not asking me if a zygote alone is worth protecting. You're asking me if I rather kill a zygote over a child. On your train scenario I would send the train to kill the zygotes every single time. Not because they don't deserve to live, but because they won't feel pain. It is the most humane decision, given the circumstances. But how does that question address my position? Its literally like me asking you, if you would send the train towards 9 healthy young people, or 10 people in a vegetative state. I'd rather kill the 10 people that won't know what hit them, over the 9 that are probably screaming and crying in anticipation of my choice.

My arguments don't hinge on worth, they hinge on identity. There's no debate that I rather you get an abortion, than decapitate the baby as soon as its born. There's no debate that I rather you kill me in my sleep, that while I'm awake. My argument is that the identity of a person is continuous across the lifespan, from conception to birth, to adolescence, to its conclusion at an elderly death.

P.S. Slide into my inbox. I don't think a discussion is possible without interruption. Also lets set a boundary of 3 points/arguments per post. So you give me your three reasons why you're in favor of abortion, then I'll give you my three reasons. The we can proceed to counterarguments and questions.

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
" There's no debate that I

" There's no debate that I rather you get an abortion, than decapitate the baby as soon as its born. There's no debate that I rather you kill me in my sleep, that while I'm awake. My argument is that the identity of a person is continuous across the lifespan, from conception to birth, to adolescence, to its conclusion at an elderly death."

Absolute fucking bollocks.
But at least in line with your Abramaic theist beliefs. Now all you have to do is is let us know which actual cult/sub cult you subscribe to?
If you dare.

Sheldon's picture
Does a balstocyst feel pain?

Does a balstocyst feel pain? Can it experience emotional trauma? Is it sentient? Can a blastocyst survive independent of the mothers womb? If you're prepared to ignore all that, and dishonestly claim terminating a pregnancy which means a nonviable blastocyst can't survive, is the same as murdering a newborn baby then why should anyone discuss the topic with someone that dishonest?

Also you have refused to say whether you think it was objectively moral for a deity to torture a newborn baby to death in the bible, just because it was angered that the baby was conceived in an adulterous affair. So again your hypocrisy and dishonesty is on display for all to see.

LogicFTW's picture
It makes me happy to hear you

It makes me happy to hear you are not an activist on the choice/abortion issue.

Sure I can table the abortion side of it and talk about my opinion of what it is to be human. Another interesting conversation. I will set the rules for my response. Not talking about god, not talking about abortion.
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TLDR version: A human being does not have a definitive start or end, (at least within the tiny timespan of say 1000 years,) everyone can only instead try to make an informed opinion on when life starts or ends and what exactly is a human.
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The more I read and learn, especially when it comes to the complexity of life, biology, our ecosystem and so on, the more I realize how futile it is to organize, collect and put things in categories with definitie beginnings and ends. Our brains want to organize, put things in boxes and answer things with a definite yes or no to intellectually make sense of our surroundings, sense of what our sensory inputs give us feeding information into our brains to be processed. Our brains are finely tuned to see patterns and organize thoughts in patterns. This allows for survival adaptation to our environment and more complex things like robust communication, (very useful as well for survival in a species that works in groups.)

The point I am getting at is we want to see patterns, start points and end points, strong yes and no's because that is how our brains like to work. Nature and things like what is a "human" does not work that way in reality, beyond what definitions we would like to give them. We attempt to define a human as an end point and start point instead of the reality that it really is, a continuous process that really has no start or end. We want to think of ourselves and our children as something that suddenly "popped" into being at a certain point. For many that point is when a sperm is accepted into an egg and the process of dna information begins to mesh. For others, (like myself) a nice start point I like to pick is when this vast complex collection of cells that contains dna that is different from the mother is birthed and can now survive without the host body. A date and time that has medical science advances has already been greatly reduced and will likely reduce to zero if the facilities and tech is available within the next 100 years.

The joining of two sets of dna is indeed an important and profound moment in the process of a collection of cells as it grows in complexity, as the dna information of the 2 parents mingle, finally all the base information that the process of reproduction was pre-programmed to wait for has happened and the incredible process of cell division to form a new collection of cells, that: at one point can function w/o the support of the host body begins. But there are many other equally as important steps along the way, perhaps even more important. Also it is important to note, our very distant ancestors, and indeed the core building block of our bodies, did not or do not require waiting to start the process of reproduction via the presence of another set of dna. And science may soon take that requirement of another dna source away for the human reproduction cycle to commence.

The above and many other examples is why we can't say a human life begins at a certain point. We do not "pop" into being, we are part of a very long cycle of cell division that has evolved over time to be more competitive by sharing dna that had to compete to survive thus evolving in a way that allows better adaptation to a constantly changing environment. At any point we could argue for or against is it a human, is it the start of a new collection of cells that will eventually become self sufficient from the host, what we like to call human. It really is all a matter of opinion. The same is true of death, even in a very quick and powerful annihilation of the collection of cells it is not instant, (say you fell into an active volcano.) We are constantly having parts of ourselves die, but we also fortunately "reproduce" via cell division the parts of ourselves that are short lived but necessary for the total cell collection host to continue to function.

There are extremes that we can all agree upon. Say a man fell into a volcano and died. He has (had?) roughly a billion sperm that could potentially be a key building block in a whole new human collection of cells, and over his life time could of produced hundreds of billion more healthy sperm. Then his half of his billions of potential kids/humans are male as well and they produced 100's of billions When he died did a potential many trillion lives go poof? Technically possibly yes, but that is an extreme so extreme that is ridiculous to consider. All we can do in narrow down the definition based on educated opinion. Most of us can agree on a certain range, say from moment of fertilization up to the moment of natural healthy birth I think would include the opinion of 99+ percent of people on this planet. There is valid arguments even based in science for any point from fertilization to natural healthy birth. But it is just that, an opinion, and a sort of consensus of opinion. We can't say "oh hey at this point this is human life." It is an opinion and a deeply personal opinion. Who should make that final opinion in where we disagree along that range? The host body of course is best suited to decide where along that range a human life begins in the sense that it would be murder of another human or not.

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Switching gears slightly, What is a human? How do we define it?
--- taking another break here, will come back to finish when I can --- (preview: the answer is much like when life begins/ends, its a huge range, most (99%) can agree to a certain range, all we can do is make informed opinions for ourselves within that range.)

ʝօɦռ 6IX ɮʀɛɛʐʏ's picture
We attempt to define a human

"We attempt to define a human as an end point and start point instead of the reality that it really is, a continuous process that really has no start or end"

In a sense that is what I have been arguing. I see the continuity in the development, the process, the growth, of the human identity. All of which clearly commence at conception, and conclude at death. An embryo is clearly a human being in development, not a developing group of cells that will some day become a human being.

Although, I can see why some would put the start when the baby is birthed and can now survive without the host body. The problem I personally have with that is its arbitrariness. For one, it makes the internal identity of the baby, dependent on external factors, since labor depends on the mom's body. So it ignores any of the baby's developmental stages, and instead bases it on the mother's hormonally induced contractions. The second problem I have is that we are mammals, and we depend on the mother outside of the womb as much as inside. So the concept of "surviving without a host" needs to be taken with a grain of salt.

So I think the important thing to realize is the arbitrariness of picking a point mid-way through the pregnancy, as the starting point of human life. We should definitely steer away from picking stages post hoc, meaningful though we think they are. The clearest problem with choosing a marker later in development, is it becomes inexorably intertwined with some organ or system, that can be lost later on in life, without the loss of human identity. Consciousness can be lost in a coma, the heart can stop beating, sensory and pain systems can be supressed. If you don't think people stop being human when these things happen, then we shouldn't think people start being human when these things emerge.

I think the only clear biological marker that a life has begun, is conception. Its the only truly clear moment that can determine we are now dealing with a unique human life in development. If that isn't the starting point, then nothing else is.

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
This kind of dishonest

This kind of dishonest reasoning makes me livid.

To finish your argument; At the precise moment of conception a woman loses control of her body and cedes it to some theist committee?
Is that the breezy utopian ideal?

Utter bullshine as I have come to expect. Your arguments are solely based on your theist approach to existence. Women being the chattels of men and under their control. That woman can be 'saved' through carrying to term (regardless of the circumstances of its conception) shows where your inspiration comes from Breezy. Your imagined concern for a blastocyst is just the vehicle by which you have justified the relegating of women to a subjugate status.
You've slipped up revealing your misogynistic paternalistic beliefs before, but this is quite disgusting.

ʝօɦռ 6IX ɮʀɛɛʐʏ's picture
Straw God Fallacy

Straw God Fallacy

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
"But women[c] will be saved

"But women[c] will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety"

Now answer the question:
To finish your argument; At the precise moment of conception a woman loses control of her body and cedes it to some theist committee?
Is that the breezy utopian ideal?

Sheldon's picture
From now on this disingenuous

From now on this disingenuous guff gets this response.

Straw man use of the false Straw God Fallacy argument.

LogicFTW's picture
@ John 6IX Breezy

@ John 6IX Breezy
I apologize for the slow speed of response, I got busy yesterday.

In a sense that is what I have been arguing. I see the continuity in the development, the process, the growth, of the human identity. All of which clearly commence at conception, and conclude at death

I know my post was long, but I was arguing the whole time that there really is no start or end. There is no magical time we suddenly pop into being and are now human when we were not before. Those are human concepts we like to add to the process of living. We can only try to all agree on a certain range that feels reasonable, where we can say "okay this is human enough to call this collection of cells another human" a point along the line of a process that could be scientifically argued is literally billions of years. For you, that is at the time of fertilization of an egg. For me it is once the group of cells can survive w/o another group of cells hosting it.

It can be argued all living things on this planet come from the same common base ancestor, and we are all a billion + years old, a process of cell division and information pass down that has been occurring since the first cells.

The point I was making in my last post, is, 99 plus percent of us can probably agree on the very least, that range is sometime between fertilization and natural birth. We can quibble on the differences during those amazing 40ish weeks, but that decision should ultimately rest with the mother to decide within that 9 month range whats important to her where there is difference of opinion, not the opinions of others, especially males that has never gone through the process themselves. You state you are not an activist when it comes to abortion, so as long as you are okay with a woman making that choice within that range, your opinion is fine and more or less just as valid as my own, or anyone else's the only persons opinion that matters though, is the mother. Although I would agree with you that a mother of a healthy 37 week old fetus should probably not just arbitrarily on a brief emotional whim have an abortion killing that child, fortunately that almost never happens and good luck finding anyone that would perform that abortion procedure.

I could write pages why I think a fertilized egg is not yet a separate new individual human in my opinion, it is all pretty compelling to me.

I also got to ask: if you think a fertilized egg is human, that means you consider the "day after pill" to be murder of a human being? If you do, ouch. To you 100's of thousands of humans are killed every day because the parents got excited and skipped the condom or it broke or otherwise? That a couple deciding no I do not want to chance having a baby yet, quite possibly murdered their own child and perhaps have done it repeatedly? Not only that, but fertility doctors state that somewhere between 30% to 50% of all fertilized eggs do not make it to birth because of natural causes. Pretty dark world to have, having the opinion that a human begins at moment of fertilization. How do you get used to that? Numb to it? Does stories of couples murdering their 2 year old kid not shock you because you are already numb to the concept of parents murdering their human baby occurs 100's of thousands of times a day? Everyday? Perhaps you feel a bit of relief when the murder of a 2 year old happens because then at least society will likely punish the parents?

"Although, I can see why some would put the start when the baby is birthed and can now survive without the host body." The problem I personally have with that is its arbitrariness. For one, it makes the internal identity of the baby, dependent on external factors, since labor depends on the mom's body. So it ignores any of the baby's developmental stages, and instead bases it on the mother's hormonally induced contractions. The second problem I have is that we are mammals, and we depend on the mother outside of the womb as much as inside. So the concept of "surviving without a host" needs to be taken with a grain of salt.

My personal opinion is not moment of natural birth, I just know that is some people's opinion. It is a bit arbitrary, I agree, just like when the egg is fertilized is a bit arbitrary. Birth is indeed a major, critical event of the development of the cells we all will eventually call human, just like fertilization is, but it is just one step along the process. I agree absolutely that babies require additional care even after they are born. But it does not have to be the host mother. It would not have to even be human. Point I was trying to make there, is, even with the very best medical technology we have today, a 15 week old fetus would absolutely not survive w/o the host mother. Zero chance of living, even the best doctors in the world would realize it would be futile to even try.

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I am not gonna worry about writing out the long post of "what is human life" unless someone would like me to.

ʝօɦռ 6IX ɮʀɛɛʐʏ's picture
Well yes, I understood your

Well yes, I understood your point. We agree on the progression, but disagree on the beginning/end position. Since you've taken that position, I would like to ask you why? I think death is clearly the end of the progress, and if not what comes after? Likewise I think conception is the beginning of the process, if not, what comes before? Sperm is clearly an ingredient, do you feel like it counts?

But no, I don't think the 'range' or 'start of life' is up to the mother to decide. She can decide on the abortion if she wants. But demarcating what is and isn't a human life is a scientific question. I don't see the need for making it an opinion. Those are two separate subjects.

As to the Morning After pill, as far as I understand its a contraceptive, not an abortion pill. It prevents a pregnancy, it doesn't end one. I could be wrong, and if I am then my answer will change. I also have no issues with miscarriages. I think they're sad and devastating. Several people close to me have had miscarriages, and always a somber time for everyone.

You don't have to write a long post on "what is a human life" but I would like to hear your arguments for why conception wouldn't be the beginning of life. We can agree that its all a progress that continues beyond birth. But what precedes conception that's on the same footing?

LogicFTW's picture
Since you've taken that

Since you've taken that position, I would like to ask you why?

To avoid a long post, I could summarize why as the following, if you want the full reasoning behind it read my edit at the bottom or I can clarify parts.

1. Especially in the early stages of pregnancy, I consider zygote, embryo etc, as a lesser human, a developing "human" with lesser rights then the mother right to choose what goes on in her own body. Brutal in that wording, yes, but concise. This developing human potential is still a very special and precious thing that should be protected, and as this fetus develops it becomes yet more human like it becomes closer and closer to an equal to the mother. The mother has more rights to choose what goes on in her own body then this potential human has a right to live within that body.

2. This very special and precious developing human is wholly dependent on the host mother for a large part or nearly all of the average 40 week pregnancy depending on the circumstances. Something that is so utterly dependent on the human host gives up much of its rights to the human host as a human host has powerful rights that should be protected.

In conclusion: my personal opinion is: a women has the right to a choice on what goes on with her body over the right of the developing humans right to live.

Fortunately, at a certain point a potential human can survive w/o the host mothers body with reasonable chance to reach at least 1 year of age. If the women has access to a modern well staffed NICU That is around 25-26 weeks for a 50% chance to reach 1 year of age. For much of the world's poor, that is unfortunately is closer to 36 weeks, all the way up to a natural birth at around 40 weeks. When those options are available, attempts should be made to save this precious developing human instead of doing an abortion as the mothers own body rights no longer apply, and the developing human rights to live takes priority.

But demarcating what is and isn't a human life is a scientific question. I don't see the need for making it an opinion. Those are two separate subjects.

The science is already in, and the conclusion is clear, human life does not begin at fertilization or when the heart starts beating, or when a central nervous system is developed etc, human life is a cycle of cellular reproduction and passing of dna, fertilization of the egg is just one, (indeed profound,) step along that cycle. We can only instead form an opinion on what step along that cycle of humans is one where the right for this human in the cycle supersedes the right to another human's right to decide what to do with their own body. .Since we cannot all agree, we all have different opinions, and when there is no solid conclusive answer based on real world evidence and study, the decision instead should pass to the one most affected and closest to the dilemma. The mother the one whose rights are being debated over to begin with it is the best we can do with a very difficult situation.

Fortunately thanks to science and medical advancement we are increasingly reducing the need of a host body for a long period of time. We could well see in a 100 years or less, at current rates of advancement, that we can take a "host" mother out of the equation entirely. For people that want to save every fertilized egg, the means to do so without infringing on anyone's right to their own body could be mostly achieved. Another very icky moral question comes up then as well, if the technology exist, should we then mandate that science intervene in every pregnancy to reduce the 30-50 percent rate that all fertilized eggs do not reach birth due to natural causes? We tell parents they must make every reasonable effort to the well being of their kids after they are born, why not before?

As to the Morning After pill, as far as I understand its a contraceptive, not an abortion pill.

We are both wrong/correct. Most commonly used morning after pills, (like plan B,) does a combination of things. Temporarily stops the release of an egg from the ovary. Prevents fertilization. Prevents a fertilized egg from attaching to the uterus. If you consider a fertilized egg a pregnancy, then sometimes the morning after pill ends the pregnancy. (Remember, it can take anywhere from a few hours to 5 days after intercourse for fertilization to occur.)

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I started first writing a reply, and it got long and then I realized it got off topic. For those interested, or want to further understand my reasoning feel free to read below.
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I think we both agree we are made up of cells. I think we both agree cells have a cycle, the cell grows, performs its functions and when the cell gets too large, it divides in half where it creates two near identical copies of itself, also copying the dna instructions. DNA instructions that also tell cells what type of cell it should be, (in function,) how fast to grow, and when to die. The cells in our bodies as they split up into their different functions during all live, die, and split at different rates, but other than a few rare cases, like brain neurons for instance, have all split but also died off, a constant state of renewal. If you are 40, the average age of cells in your body is somewhere around 7-10 years old according to carbon dating.

We humans want to think in absolute terms, we are 1 entity, 1 start time, 1 end time. That is simply not the case. We are a constant process of cells dividing, passing along dna information that tells the cells what to do.

Back to fertilization of a mother's egg. Yes, a very special and unique thing happens, evolution has created a system that having 2 complex cellular groupings working in concert, that have a very specialized exchange of very slightly different instructions allows for greater efficiency and survivability of the clusters of cells working together. Than simple endless cell division. Quite simply the exchange of dna occurs, in humans and many other animal cases.

That is all fertilization is, an exchange of similar dna. No more, no less. The building blocks (cell or in this case a single cell) existed before that, where did that come from? Why from cell division from the mother of course! (The male sperm cells only exchange information and does not divide, but are instead created from other base non sperm cells that divided.) Where did that mothers cells come from? Her mother! On and on all the way back to an original cell, all the while the dna being edited, added too, subtracted from and so on.

We humans are part of a cycle of cells passing along dna information a cycle made manifest that greater efficiency is wrought from doing this particular type of cycle over simple endless cell division. During that cycle there is a key point where dna information is exchanged and 1 cell divides to create all the component over again to create eventually a separate highly complex grouping of cells working in concert with dna instructions. It is just a step along the cycle, not the beginning nor the end. Even when a particular unique collection of cells working together we like to call human ceases to be able to work together causing total cellular death the cycle continues on, a beginning that could be traced back to the origin of cells, and the end when all cells has died off and all dna information is lost.

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I stopped here then wrote my responses on top, if anyone is interested I can finish out my thought process on this.

Sushisnake's picture
@LogicForTW

@LogicForTW

My temperamental old eyes finally let me read all of your posts in this thread on my 8" tablet tonight. Learned a lot and laughed out loud more than once. I've bookmarked for future reference. Thank you :-D

ʝօɦռ 6IX ɮʀɛɛʐʏ's picture
I think the problem still

[Repeat]

Sheldon's picture
Straw man use of the false

Straw man use of the false Straw God Fallacy argument.

ʝօɦռ 6IX ɮʀɛɛʐʏ's picture
Cute.

Cute.

Sheldon's picture
Thanks.

Thanks.

Does a balstocyst feel pain? Can it experience emotional trauma? Is it sentient? Can a blastocyst survive independent of the mothers womb? If you're prepared to ignore all that, and dishonestly claim terminating a pregnancy which means a nonviable blastocyst can't survive, is the same as murdering a newborn baby then why should anyone discuss the topic with someone that dishonest?

Also you have refused to say whether you think it was objectively moral for a deity to torture a newborn baby to death in the bible, just because it was angered that the baby was conceived in an adulterous affair. So again your hypocrisy and dishonesty is on display for all to see.

ʝօɦռ 6IX ɮʀɛɛʐʏ's picture
I do commend you for you

I do commend you for your persistence. Even Pavlov's dog stops salivating when food stops coming.

Sheldon's picture
I don't see the relevance of

I don't see the relevance of your reply sorry.

Does a balstocyst feel pain? Can it experience emotional trauma? Is it sentient? Can a blastocyst survive independent of the mothers womb? If you're prepared to ignore all that, and dishonestly claim terminating a pregnancy which means a nonviable blastocyst can't survive, is the same as murdering a newborn baby then why should anyone discuss the topic with someone that dishonest?

Also you have refused to say whether you think it was objectively moral for a deity to torture a newborn baby to death in the bible, just because it was angered that the baby was conceived in an adulterous affair. So again your hypocrisy and dishonesty is on display for all to see.

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