Take your brain out, pick a God and dream about eternal bliss.
I can understand why people subscribe, I just can't understand why they can subscribe and ignore the damage? It's so selfish. To me it's like a fat bloke eating pizza in front of a starving child.
It gives people comfort. Why take that away from them??
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@Workingclasshero:
Your analogy fails. If the Christians are eating pizza they are trying to share it with you. Pizza may be fine once in a while, but when someone wants to feed it to you every day and then gets pissed at you when you don't want to eat it, there is a problem. Yea, it gives them comfort to know what they are going to have for dinner. Frankly, I prefer not knowing as the world is an amazing place full of all sorts of interesting foods. So the Christians hate me, my Beijing Duck tastes just as good with or without their hate.
But... They will continue to eat pizza knowing that there are people who have no idea what pizza is. They offer you pizza not really knowing what the topping is themselves, hoping that the topping wont kill you (or them)
They continue to stuff their faces with the pizza until they burst, all of this happens before the eyes of the nonpizzarist. Pizza needs to be regulated and not served to young impressionable nonpizzarists… This is my dream... A dream within our grasp.
A meta-analysis of various studies has shown that atheists and the highly religious fear death less than those in between (a weak correlation):
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/2153599X.2016.1238844
The truth is preferable to falsehood. The world does not get better from deciding to deviate from the truth. The world also does not get better from people who treat their life as having little or no value compared to some supposed afterlife.
Amen Brother! I'm reading a 1990's edition of Butler's Lives of Saints - Terrifying stuff.
The highly religious don't believe in death so there is that. Atheists know it's coming and make the most of the here and now, and the inbetweeners bumble along. We're all in the same sinking boat, some of us invest in snorkels and some of us don't.
Snorkelling is okay for half a day... Couldn't do it forever.
I think you may have answered your won OP there. Whilst I wish no one would lend credence to vapid superstition, I don't want to, nor can I, take their religion away from them. However we must continue to curb all the pernicious aspects of religious belief.
@Sheldon
A friend of my wife lost her husband to apparent suicide recently. The widow is highly religious and is now in her 50's. I would never try to pull her religious rug out from under her at this point in her life especially during her intensive grieving process.
The widow almost immediately decided that her husband is in heaven, (even though her religion is one of those that suicides don't get to go to heaven ones.) I felt no need to intercede. However: if the widow felt her husband was in hell, I may have tried very lightly and cautiously to approach her and give her a viable alternative to her husband roasting in hell for eternity.
Then came the call to start a fund for the late husband's memory. That is fine, no problem with that, was ready to toss a few bucks there way, then I read half of those funds will go to his church. Yeah I am out, my wife is out, (her own opinion,) they widow has not said anything and probably won't, but it may be the end of the friendship between my wife and the now widow, which is too bad, we both would like to support the widow in this difficult time for her, but we are not going to support their local favorite church.
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@LogicFTW
An interesting if sad story. When I was 22 a married friend of mind died in a motorcycle accident, he was 25 and his widow was 21, they had a 1 year old baby boy. The reason this resonates with your own story beyond the obvious, is that a mutual friend on hearing me saying I had to believe I would see him again one day, told me no I wouldn't, he looked me straight in the eye and said he's gone. I never thought badly of that friend for what he'd said, but then I held no strong religious beliefs. The friend had lost his own father at a very young age, and ironically also in a motorcycle accident.
I can see you made the right decision not to try and take your friend's beliefs away from her at such a traumatic point in her life, but I think it is demonstrable that the belief she is now cling to, and that may have caused her to cut off two good friends in you and your wife, is a pernicious one. In the long run recovering from such an emotional trauma is governed by many factors, as diverse as the people who suffer them, but facing reality at our own pace, is the best way to move on, and make the best of what remains of your life.
I miss the people I have lost, and will continue to do so, and try to derive pleasure from their memory, but I will never ever see them again. My life was enriched by knowing them, and by their memory, it would be cheapened by believing I could somehow cheat death and meet them in any meaningful way after I die.
If at some point in the future your friend's belief is obviously harming her recovery from this bereavement what might you do then?
@Sheldon
I may never know if she cuts off communication from us. I, and especially my wife, will still make efforts to reach out and support her. Especially later on when the huge support right around the funeral ends from everyone and everyone goes back to their own lives. It is possible she may not even notice we did not donate, their is an option donate anonymously. Actually that is a good idea, I think my wife and I will try to donate not to the fund earmarked for half to go to their local church, but instead figure out something other way to help her out.
If we do know her current belief is obviously harming her recovery further down the road then my wife and I will try to sit down and talk with her, maybe over a home cooked meal, (people relax and become more agreeable during/after eating.) I am getting better at reading body language for subtle clues to how people are feeling. (Been reading up on psychological tells, tricks etc.) It would be a good place outside of my work to practice and put these skills to use. -These psychological tells, tricks, etc are not negative for the person, but instead helpful for both of us.- A few of which I have heard about or learned here.
Anyways... I would try to sit down with her and try to steer her away from thinking her husband is roasting in eternity, either by explaining why god is not likely at all, or if she is more likely/easier to just explain that many religions have many different interpretations of god and that the base religion and books upon which her religion relies does not have a "hell" that "hell" was an invention centuries later. In a sense go "old testament" on her. I certainly do not want to push anyone further towards an even crazier religion, but, I have learned here and elsewhere when someone is really devout, trying to change their ways all the way to atheist is a near impossible task.
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@LogicFTW
This is a sad tale. But then again, any death is a sad tale. But this story leads me to ask the question: was her husband also religious? Because if so, being religious did not keep him from committing suicide. So much for that support from religion.
I also question what direction the friendship will go, because she has obviously chosen religion over you guys. But I ask you to look at the picture of assisting someone currently suffering great emotional distress. She needs support, and maybe for this moment give her that. But of course, no money. Of course, that is my opinion, I see pain in my friends, I will do almost anything to alleviate the suffering.
I did that back in December when my dearest and closest friend died. He was very close to his brother, I knew him very well, and he was shattered. So for the next few weeks I shadowed him and lent any support I could for him. But he has moved on from his grieving process, and I rarely see him now.
It is interesting how this lady has invented new rules, to believe he is not in hell. She uses religion as a comfort blanket. Pick and choose what passages in the bible fit your agenda, and ignore the rest.
@David Killens
It certainly is. It actually made national, (USA) news, but I won't go into details to help protect identities.
He was, very religious, spent a lot of time volunteering for the church and very very involved in the church community. I will have to say they do not know my wife and I are atheist, but they also never pushed religion on us, sometimes religious stuff would come up in conversation but they always let us change the subject quickly without protest. The suicide was sudden and unexpected as far as I can tell. They were a "picture" perfect family from the outside, (Two boys something like 2 and 5 if I recall correctly,) the suicide to me was a complete surprise, but we are not close enough to the widow to be confided in on inner turmoil in the family. My wife was good friends with the widow a decade ago when they shared the same job, but as they had kids we definitely drifted apart. So it is possible he had shown signs of battling depression or what not. But he was always a very "up" person whenever, on the semi-rare these days occasions we hung out.
Back when I first met them maybe 2nd time I personally ever met them, Was right around easter, and I said "happy zombie easter day to them. Whoops :) Did not go over well, but we still ended up being friends we just avoided religious subjects for the most part.
I agree. I do not have a huge circle of friends, but the few friends that I do have I am close to and I would do almost anything (within reason) for them. You are also a good friend.
It is interesting, but not too surprising to me anymore, I see religious people pick and choose what aspects of their religions they like or don't like all the time. My dad was raised very religious RCC I remember when I was 17 I challenged him on the noah's ark story, and my dad fully agreed that it was all fiction/nonsense and did not really happen and it was just a "story to teach." I of course rebuttal that with: if that part is fiction and the book does not even mention it is now fiction time, how do we know which parts are supposed to be fiction and nonfiction. Got a bunch of nonsense about well that is why you have to study the bible, go to church etc, to learn how to interpret the bible. So.. the agenda of the leaders of the church you go to.. ugh.
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Workingclasshero
"It gives people comfort. Why take that away from them?"
Because theism also causes damage. It can rob a person of independent thought and confidence. I am sure we have all witnessed theists who can not think without a bible or religious authority to guide them. There are many who truly believe they cannot get through a day without their deity assisting.
For children, they are taught as soon as they can comprehend that they are born with sin, imperfect, and with hell hanging over their heads. That is a pretty nasty thing to do to a child.
When a theist has emotional problems, instead of seeking appropriate medical help, they go to their pastor/priest, who are definitely not qualified to solve their problems. And many hold beliefs that are found in the bible, but counter to their health. Witness many anti-vaccers.
A healthy community and a healthy family can deliver comfort and a sense of community just as powerful, even better.
Anti vax has nothing to do with the Bible. Even the rabbis are telling the Orthodox to get vaccinated.
Mrs. Paul Owczarek: Anti vax has nothing to do with the Bible.
No. The Catholic church spreads disease by banning condoms. The Islamic whackos in Nigeria are true anti-vaxxers though. They've saved lots of innocent children from the perils of polio vaccination.
@Mrs. Paul Owczarek: Then......... I guess you have to explain the Christian view to us..... Are you saying all those anti vax Christians are wrong? Isn't that blasphemy???
The Bible teaches us that children are a gift from God (1 Timothy 5:8). Some vaccines are produced using aborted baby lung tissue, which are man and government profiting from the murder of our innocent children. To partake in vaccines is to support that individuals/government that no longer has respect for the sanctity of human life.
· The Bible teaches that the parents are entrusted with the care and welfare of the child. (1 Timothy 5:8). Parents, not the state, are responsible to make health care decisions on behalf of their children.
· The Bible also teaches that there have been times in history when evil government and government employees have attempted, through force or color of law, to intimidate, harm or destroy the children of God’s people. (Exodus 1 and 2/ Matthew 2). Therefore, if a parent feels that vaccines are not safe, it is their responsibility to defend our children from and individual or government who is attempting to subject our children to those vaccine risks.
· The Bible teaches that the body is “The temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own. For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God’s.” (1 Corinthians 6:19-20) To inject known neurotoxins into our children, which have known health risks, would be a violation of these biblical teachings.
· The Bible teaches that there are clean and unclean animals and that God’s people are not to put the unclean into their bodies. Many vaccines are made from the blood of diseased animals, decomposed animal parts and are not sterile.
· The Bible teaches that when man’s law contradicts God’s law, His people must obey God over man. (Acts 5:29) Therefore, be it known, should any policy, edict or legislation of man decree our children must be vaccinated, we must obey God rather than man just as Moses’ parents of old, we will do so without fear. (Exodus 2)
· The Bible teaches us that we are not to harm or wrong our neighbor. (Romans 13:10 and James 2:8) Our decisions to decline vaccines do not wrong or threaten our neighbor. If vaccines were truly effective, the neighbor would not be in danger from someone who is not vaccinated.
Therefore, be it known, that based upon the teachings of the Holy Bible, it is our religious conviction not to have our children vaccinated. We desire to be at peace with those who may feel or think differently than we do on this issue and that is why we humbly explain the choice we have made. We will protect our children from the injection of neurotoxins, retroviruses and foreign animal proteins that are in vaccinations. https://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Health_Concerns/Vaccines/biblical_suppor...
@ Cog
Wow, just fucking wow...*shakes head in disbelief*
Well having just had my free flu jab, my free pneumo jab...and thanks to antivaxxers a free measles update *sigh* ... but then I live in a country that has a desire to ensure the basic health of children and pensioners....WHAT THE FUCK ARE THESE RELIGIOUS LOONIES THINKING??????
@Old man shouts ... "What the fuck are these religious loonies thinking?" I can only speak from personal experience.
"God did this. God did that. Praise the lord it's raining. God is watching me cross the street. I am safe with god. Praise Jesus. Look at the clouds... god sent them to make me happy. The wind is cool, praise Jesus. Oh! Almost stepped on a bug. Praise Jesus little fellow, Look at the leaves on the trees all changing colors. God is amazing. OH! I found a dime. Praise the lord. Now the hand of God will guide me as I walk down the street and protect me from evil. Look at all the people rushing around, going here and there, they need Jesus in their life. Ohm here comes someone. "Good morning. Praise Jesus." Huh, obviously a non-believer. Shoot, it's getting cold out here. Jesus will warm me up. Jesus, I pray to you... HEY! A restaurant. I could go and get a cup of coffee. God works in mysterious ways. Another prayer answered. AND THIS SCARY SELF TALK SHIT JUST GOES ON AND ON AND ON AND ON ALL DAY LONG!
Ah, eternal bliss. What a meaningless concept.
I had a discussion about this one time with my very theistic brother and sister-in-law. At the time, I was realizing my atheism and spoke out about it with relatives more than I do now.
They believe in literally a "perfect" afterlife, no pain, no remorse, no sadness, anger, jealousy, etc. I started simple. They are big dog lovers, but don't believe dogs have souls so therefore won't be in heaven with them.
"Wouldn't it be 'more perfect' if you could have all your dogs with you? Wouldn't that be even more perfect?"
Jibberish as a reply, "God will make sure we are perfectly happy."
"You know, I don't believe the same as you. I doubt every relative, friend, or just anyone you have ever admired believes the same as you. How could you be perfectly happy and content knowing that some of these people will be spending eternity being tortured in the fires of hell?"
More jibberish. "God will take care of all that. He will fill our hearts with only positive thoughts. We will accept God's merciful judgment."
"Maybe it's just me. If I actually believed all that bullshit, even if I was confident of my outcome, I would be terrified for the rest of the people and there is no way I could be happy knowing anyone was suffering in hell."
"Well, like I said, God will purge all negative emotions. Maybe God will let you forget that any of those other people ever existed and you won't even know that a hell exists."
"Great, so God will ease your mind by lying to you. That's just special."
They ought to read Brave New World by Aldous Huxley, by the end of that no sane rational person could fail to be weary of "happiness" imposed on them, like automatons.
I'd prefer we focused our efforts on reducing unnecessary suffering in this life, as much as is humanly possible, and in a tangible way, not with saccharine fictions of what Orwell referred to in Animal Farm as "Sugarcandy Mountain."
Parenthetically I don't lend any credence to the pernicious idea that happiness is only achieved through suffering, as the sadistic Albanian nun that the RCC canonised tried to teach, and of course reinforced that idea with ample suffering imposed on many of those unlucky enough to land in her care.
If a deity doesn't like anything we do then it can say so, or stop us, but even if a deity exists, and I am extremely dubious, no human has the right to decide on behalf of others what any deity wants.
Another opportunity for one of my favourite quotes from the Hitch.
@Sheldon,
"Parenthetically I don't lend any credence to the pernicious idea that happiness is only achieved through suffering, as the sadistic Albanian nun that the RCC canonised tried to teach, and of course reinforced that idea with ample suffering imposed on many of those unlucky enough to land in her care."
I agree. I do see value in "struggle", that is the need to overcome obstacles in order to succeed. While that may in some cases necessitate some suffering, it's not for the sake of suffering but instead to lead to a goal. This is one of arguments against a perfect heaven. With nothing ever on the line, there can be no accomplishment. I can't image a more boring existence, I would even go so far as to suggest the typical view of Christian heaven is really a sort of Twilight Zone hell.
@OP
I don't know that I agree with your idea that people choose to be religious simply because it gives comfort. Yes, I do obtain some comfort in difficult situations in that "it is for a reason", but that is a by-product of religion, not the main point.
One thing Theists and Atheist have in common is we are all doomed to suffer the same ailments and tragedies of this life, and also get to experience the beauty and love of this as well. Even though I believe there to be something better after we die, to be perfectly honest, I fear death all the same.
Also, the idea that if you subscribe to some religion that you live a happy, cheap, selfish life is kinda...uhh...wrong. At least in my worldview, every day is a struggle. As it should be. If you want this world to be a better place over all, it starts with yourself. Religion simply provides the pathway and the steps to achieve that.
SBH says, "@OP I don't know that I agree with your idea that people choose to be religious simply because it gives comfort."
And I don't know how you infer that WCH posits comfort as the sole reason people choose to believe.
@NJN
Okay, maybe you are correct, he did not say it was the "sole" reason. But my point is that comfort does not seem to be a reason at all, just a beneficial by-product.
@SomeBODIEShero
Are you really going to argue that:
- Life after death
- Heaven, hell. (Depending on your religion.)
- That god has a plan and purpose for everyone
- That there is someone that listens and cares about everyone, (prayer.)
Are you going to argue the above is not very comforting to a lot of people? And that religion is not largely based on these "carrots" of comfort? (Or stick in the case of hell/purgatory, nothing etc)
If you thought there was no life after death, no heaven or hell, (or anything similar,) that there is a plan and grand sky daddy of them all creator that can do miracles and give "hope." And there was no one "out there" listening to your prayers thoughts and concerns. Would you still be religious? I highly doubt it, what would be the point? There would be no reward or punishment.
I mean you can argue that this "comfort" is a beneficial by-product, of religion but good luck arguing that religion would survive without these powerful carrots and sticks. If these "comforts" went away do you really think people would ascribe to religion in the great numbers they currently are (if they have a choice, plenty of people in the world still have next to no choice on what religion they believe in.)
@Logic
"Are you going to argue the above is not very comforting to a lot of people? And that religion is not largely based on these "carrots" of comfort? (Or stick in the case of hell/purgatory, nothing etc)"
Is the belief in Hell a comforting idea? Kinda uncomfortable to me...
"If you thought there was no life after death, no heaven or hell, (or anything similar,) that there is a plan and grand sky daddy of them all creator that can do miracles and give "hope." And there was no one "out there" listening to your prayers thoughts and concerns. Would you still be religious? I highly doubt it, what would be the point? There would be no reward or punishment."
I mean, you are basically erasing the entire belief of Christianity. So if, hypothetically, those things weren't true, then sure, I probably wouldn't be religious.
"I mean you can argue that this "comfort" is a beneficial by-product"
Thank you. We found some common ground.
"good luck arguing that religion would survive without these powerful carrots and sticks."
I agree with this to some degree, actually. Carrots and sticks are a successful way to entice someone into doing something.
Imagine if I had a clinically overweight pet rabbit. The vet said I need to get him to exercise or he will die in 1 month. So I put all sorts of treadmills (wheelies, whatever) in his cage but he just sits there, with no desire to exercise. I then decide to hang a carrot in front of the treadmill, and he immediately gets on it and runs for his life. After 4 weeks, he is in the best shape of his life and he lives for 100 more years.
Is the carrot a device of comfort in this scenario? Or is it a motivational tool to do what's best for ourselves, even when we don't want to?
I stated that was a stick.
Glad we agree, christianity is almost entirely around these carrots and sticks like: life after death etc.
Cool we agree again. So you agree that religion is largely based around carrot and sticks and carrot and sticks are a succesful way to entice someone into doing something. So comfort is a very enticing part of religion as it was originally stated. Or possibly a motivational tool like you mentioned.
Pretty cool we agree on this.
Obviously where we disagree is: that I think this is a problem, a sign of people being manipulated, (using carrots and sticks,) to believe something of which there is no actual evidence for. And even the carrots and sticks are not evidenced.
I do not have a problem with people believing unevidenced stuff if it makes them feel better. I only have a problem when the mechanism and organization doing it does harm others. And all the major religions have a long, LONG! history of doing this! If they did not they would not be major religions today. Why do you think Islam is spreading so much these days? Where the less "aggressive" religions are dying out?
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@logic
First of all, I genuinely appreciate your civility.
“I only have a problem when the mechanism and organization doing it does harm others. And all the major religions have a long, LONG! history of doing this!”
I would agree with you again, that any organization that does harm to others is one to frowned upon. But it raises an interesting question. Is an organization that does harm “intentionally” different than one who does so unintentionally?”
In my estimation, most religious groups truly believe what they say. Their ideas of heaven and hell are formulated based on their reading and understanding. To be honest, I think it is cheap and disingenuous to write off religion as an organization that seeks to oppress the masses, I think in more cases they believe it to be true, but are just wrong. The issue comes down to this...you have seen the history and scripture and believe it to not hold much water. Others see the same material and believe it to be the “end all be all. “ fine. Differences of opinion.
My question is this. If you don’t have the burden of proof, and can’t discredit the existence of a Diety, then are you really in any position to say for certain that we are doing harm by teaching to believe in God?
I’m not trying to shift the burden of proof, but simply saying even if there is no evidence for the existence, and most evidence as we are aware of points against it, doesn’t prove the non existence. So what if in this case, with all of the experiments and equations, you are wrong?
@SomeBODIEShero
I agree, you cannot disprove an "idea." Especially one like "god." But I am a little different from most atheist here. I think it is quite easy to show that the various god ideas are made up by man. I am happy to make the claim that man likely made up all the gods, because there is a lot of powerful evidence that backs that.
A short run down:
- People are capable of creating fiction especially if it is of benefit to the creator of fiction.
- All (and I do mean ALL aspects of god,) are via humans. No humans no god. This is true of every god based religion I ever heard of.
- Those at the top of many various religions have benefited enormously from being at the top of these religions. The kind of people that are only accountable to their "god" idea.
- 1000's upon thousands of different god ideas some greatly different some slightly different. This is a powerful marker that god is a man created idea instead of an actual all powerful deity.
- complete lack of real testable repeatable evidence for a god
- god taking on many "human" traits. Also a powerful indication that god is of human fiction creation.
- I got more if you want them I gotta keep this post short.
Are all of them for sure made up by man? Well that is harder to prove, but the likelihood that anyone particular god is not a fiction and the rest are (to at least some extent, starts getting really really small.)
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No, as you've been told repeatedly, atheism is not a contrary belief to theism, theists choose to believe unevidenced archaic superstition, theists choose not to believe it, precisely because it is unevidenced archaic superstition. This is not a difference of opinion either, your offering an opinion, atheists are disbelieving that opinion, not offering a contrary one. this yet another of your disingenuous attempts to reverse the burden of proof.
Disbelief carries no burden of proof, that is axiomatic. How many times are you going to lie and use the logical fallacy argumentum ad ignorantiam, to try and fallaciously claim a belief has any validity because it can't be "disproved"? A belief does not need to be valid in order to be pernicious, and again that is axiomatic.
Yes you are, as the second part of your sentence (below) clearly indicates"
That is yet again another tedious repetition of your argumentum ad ignorantiam fallacy, and the fallacious nature of this has been explained ad nausea to you by now. Nothing is validated or invalidated by a lack of contrary evidence. Nor is withholding belief a claim to contrary knowledge, and atheism is just the lack or absence of belief, no matter how many times theists dishonestly try to misrepresent it.
What objective evidence can you demonstrate for any deity? Until you can I will continue to disbelieve your claim.
Re: SBH - "If you want this world to be a better place over all, it starts with yourself. Religion simply provides the pathway and the steps to achieve that."
...*sniff-sniff-sniff*... Oomph!... Oh-dear-lord-what's-that-SMELL???... *gag*... *rushing to open windows*... COG!!! Did you forget to flush again?!?... *eyes beginning to water*... Son-of-a-BITCH!... *cough-gag-cough*... I hope the septic tank hasn't backed up!... *turning on vent fans*... Hey! Which one of you assholes brought a decomposing skunk into the house?!?...*spraying air freshener*.... Aw, shit, that ain't working!... *rummaging through closet*... Where the hell is my HAZMAT suit?... *dry heaving*....
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