Theist a thousands of year old book is proof that some human put together a book. That you feel awe when you look listen or hear something of beauty only means that you observed a phenomena that your brain liked. Only god can prove it exist to those of us that haven't died yet. Unless you've been dead for a month and come back into human existence after actually seeing the face of god and being elevated to it's level then you are simply claiming to know things that you can't possibly know. : )
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What i find funny is most christians believe their book is basically an eye witness diary so its a book written from start to end.
And the church allows this misconception because it makes the book seem more like evidence.
When the fact is its just a bunch of stories the church bundled together after throwing away stories they didnt like (can you say censorship lol) the church cant prove when each story was written or by whom. Let alone the content.
Even if it was a set of eye witness accounts, eye witness testimony does not prove it was god. That's why prosecutors don't depend on witness accounts solely, there has to be additional evidence. Humans cannot provide additional evidence.
Request clarification on your first sentence: does or does not prove it?
My apologizes CyberLN, that was supposed to be "does not," in any logical or reasonable way.
Thanks! (Chuckle). Was hoping that was the case Elie!
What do you expect from people which lack IQ to even realize that they are ignorant.
Thinking to know what god thinks is one of the most arrogant and stupid thing theists do.
If someone lacks the IQ to see this level of stupidity, no wonder they cannot think for themselves.
Thus there is no reasonable argument that can reach them. They simply are stupid.
I was a christian and had every kind of influence from Christianity, my country is 97% Catholic christian.
I became an atheist because I am able to think for myself and not let others do this vital job for me.
If someone cannot do this I have no problem calling him stupid, be it a theist, Darwinist, etc...
Oh that's a little harsh. My IQ's ok :)
did you make a post, claiming that you can prove god existence?
especially the christian god?
If so I suggest you take an IQ test and then post the results :P
If not, then that comment was not meant for you.
Certainly doesn't score you many points to your IQ, when not understanding the simple argument at hand.
It is written in the topic itself.
I was going to paraphrase the IQ-less Plato's Allegory to the Cave... they're blind, have never seen reality, and therefore can only reference the shadows to one another, not the things that cast shadows.Yet, no one has the common sense to just turn around, because after so long in the dark the light is blinding. If they looked a little longer though, their eyes would adjust and they would see the world for what it is - and furthermore seeing the truth was well worth the momentary blindness incurred whilst they didn't know what they were looking at.
So, in my opinion they're not (just) stupid, they're lazy.
Demeaning all theist is not what I'm doing and any statements of "all atheist dumb," is merely and ad hominem.
If some one refuses to accept logic as the best talent we humans have and chooses to remove logic from his own brain, then he is forcing stupidity on himself.
There is simply no other way to see this. although most people might think that this statement is too offensive, but it is the harsh truth.
Nah, its just a bad statement. "What do you expect from people which lack IQ to even realize that they are ignorant." Hmm.
What do you expect from Polynesians which lack IQ to even realize that they are ignorant.-Now do you understand what I'm trying to explain to you?
Polynesians? As far as I know, everybody is ignorant at some level. My argument was not to be stupid. There is a huge difference between the two.
Are you claiming that people that ignore logic and choose faith are smarter then the opposite?
I am claiming that the smart people are those that prefer logic over the complete lack of logic and just obey and believe(faith).
Whoever chooses to throw away logic in the bin is stupid in my opinion.
If god exists he must have made logic for a reason and not to throw it in the bin. So god must obey logic too.(what one should tell theists)
Yes I have to generalize in some cases.
It is like saying; anybody that cannot count from 1 to 10 he will do badly in mathematics.
All people breath oxygen in a way or an other.
It is generalizing but it is the truth.
Generalizing is usually bad but some things are safe to generalize about.
This idea to be nice to theists disgusts me.
Religion should be faced by what it is, a fraud, evil, brainwashing cult, that abuses little children when they are their weakest state.
Religion should be faced with ridicule as Christopher Hitchens stated.
Unless we start calling stupid people for what they are, we will keep having people with signs like GOD HATE FAGS, or messing with human rights without them knowing it.
Deluded people do stupid things and they are stupid as long as they are deluded and brainwashed that they are doing the right thing.
Using someone else head instead of yours is so stupid, that I have no words for it.
It is an insult but it is the truth.
If someone comes with a religion that conforms with logic I will be the first to admit that he is not stupid , but has a valid argument/position that is at least possible.
Some form of Buddhism for example have my utmost respect. not that I agree with them, but at least they have a possible answer without contradictions. So as long as logic is satisfied, I am ok with those theists.
The problem lies with the majority of the theists that believe that god loves.
This level of arrogance is just not tolerated by logic since every scrap of logic/evidence points in the other direction.
Those are the guys that should be faced with ridicule since they are stupid in believing something just because someone else says so/book says so.
Ellie, my point was that those that post here saying something like:
"God's existence is proven............ Why you still defy god.........."
Are people with low IQ that cannot even realize how ignorant they are.
Only stupid people start talking about something which they don't know anything about, even worse go and preach the people who probably know more then you about your own book.
Edit:
it is not just me that says this:
Sam Harris , C. Hitchens, etc. agree on this statement:
Religion makes perfectly decent people make incredibly stupid and horrible things.
So all religious people are prone to do stupid things like posting here saying that there is proof of GOD and then end up being just their stupidity at work.
So are all theist stupid?
I didn't say that.
I said:
"What do you expect from people which lack IQ to even realize that they are ignorant."
to answer your question on those theists that try to " "Proving," God Actually Exist" (the one that loves them)
Some are deluded, some are stupid, some are evil, some are desperate and most are brainwashed.
Few are the ones that follow logic and where the evidence leads.(usually Desists though)
Those are the few deserving of some respect, the rest should be served with ridicule.
So you are certain there is no god? It seems there is no room for doubt with you Jeff.
I didn't say that.
I am certain the christian god does not exists, yes.
It has been proven in many posts here.
I myself proved it in one of my posts by just logic.
If Christians refuse to use logic, then they lack the reason needed to understand why they are being duped.
Usually because their brain has been damaged by brainwashing from when they were kids.
You might think I am exagerating, but I am not.
A theology that forces your analitical thinking to shut down from when you are a kid is damaging your brain.
It hinders not only your religion but other aspects too.
It makes people accept thing without evidence or reason.
Let me give you an example:
If god appears to you and tells you:
I AM YOUR GOD, I have chosen you as my messenger.
Will you follow me? or will you betray me?
If you have faith take your son in the town square and offer him to me.
What would you do? Yes or No
Will you offer your son to god( Yes)
Will you refuse and betray your god(No)
No post on a forum no matter how well though out will ever prove a god does or does not exist. No matter how logical theory may be applied nothing you or anyone else on here will ever say will ever prove anything. It's just discussion, just a collection of thoughts nothing less, nothing more.
Its good to think and hear thoughts of others but its bad to confuse expressions of thoughts (ie. the bible or post on message boards) as proof. That said, we can logically discuss how unlikely it is any particular god or God or gods exist but until we can come up with solid intangible proof to determine the existence of one of these entities one way or the 100% all we have is theory. we can even go as far as to flat out say we don't think any of these gods exist based on logically drawn out arguments, but without real evidence we can never be 100% certain and therefore lack actual proof.
There is no such thing as actual evidence of the nonexistence of something, as far as we know there is only evidence of things that do exist and with our current ability we can only prove things to exist. There are also various levels of understanding of things that exist. But as thing stand today you can not actually prove something does not exist.
You can however prove that things do not exist the way people believe them to in certain environments, for example, the Asgard where it's claimed the gods lived on Mt. Olympus has been proven to not exist on the mountain we call Olympus. It is also unlikely to exist on another planet at the other end of the Rainbow Bridge. Even though we could prove the Rainbow Bridge was made up by someone, it would be hard to prove that this person was not onto something even if he was joking when he came up with it..
I'm going to stop now but understand I could go on like this for ever and ever being evermore less logical and even more so ridiculous and you still could not prove that a city of that gods called Asgard sitting on top of a Mt. Olympus did not exist somewhere in the universe or some alternate universe until all the alternate universes have been found, explored and it has been then proven that it does not exist.
until we can come up with solid tangible* proof to determine the existence of one of these entities one way or the 100% all we have is theory. not intangible
Well I do not wish to discuss this matter here in this topic, but know that you are wrong.
Logic has no opinions.
It can prove things.
I cannot prove that god does not exist, but i can prove that the christian god is contradictory, thus it is a false god.
To be able to dismiss this you must make a claim and show that logic can be wrong.
Meaning 1+1 is not 2.
If you manage to do that then I would be forced to admit that I was wrong.
Since I'm 100% sure that mathematics is universal and applies even to god(if he exists), then logic which is built on mathematics can prove if something is true or not 100%.
Just one thing which is contradictory in the christian theology and goes against logic.
God is Merciful and Just. Those things are the direct opposite of each other, God cannot be both at the same time.
You can either show mercy/forgive or be JUST and deliver the right punishment that fits for the crime.(which he always fails btw)
There are much more but as I said I will not discuss this here.
Put this forward in a more appropriate topic. I have made several posts that shows these direct contradictions proven by simple logic.
Logic infers, it does not prove.
Logic proves that if you are reading this correctly, then you can read English.
Do you want to deny this fact?
Edit: I did not say that logic always proves, but that it can prove things. (just to be clear)
There are many types of logic. Earlier, you cited an example of mathematical logic in an attempt to demonstrate a different type of logic. One size does not fit all.
In your latest example, you fail to consider that I may not, indeed be able to read English. I can, however, completely understand what you wrote.
You can read English even if you don't know the English language.
Using a translator means that you can read English using a translator.
I didn't say that you know English.
If I did you would have been right. :P
Agree not all logic can prove things.
There are different levels
Logic can be subjective to knowledge and ignorance .
Though usually logic is correct, it is just the medium(human) that makes mistakes in the interpretation/representational of the logic used.
If I said Know English, I would have been mistaken, not the logic itself, but the a mistake on my part in interpreting the logic.
You said I was "reading" English. Perhaps I am not. If I am using translation software, then I am not, in fact, reading English. I'm reading some other language. Or perhaps not reading at all.
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