Transgender ideology and mental illness

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RedleT's picture
Transgender ideology and mental illness

This topic isn’t specific to atheism but many topics on this forum are not and it does have to do with the ideological left which atheists tend to lean towards.

Transgender people are mentally ill. Being trans is a mental illness and it is despicable to reinforce people’s mental illness. That’s my thesis and now I’m going to back it up with facts and arguments.

Fact 1:
Trans people have significantly higher suicide attempt rates than almost every other population of non mentally ill people. Studies suggest suicide attempt rates as high as 46% or about 20 times the norm. The lowest I’ve seen claimed is about 15% and the average rate is 4.5 for the general population according to some studies.

Fact 2:
Studies show at most mixed evidence for improvement after gender reassignment surgery.

Fact 3:
Jews during the holocaust/ in concentration camps had possibly 30 times the rate of suicide attempts as the general public and is one of the few populations with suicide rates comparable with trans people in western societies.

Fact 4:
African Americans have lower suicide rates than their white counterparts. I believe this applied in the 60s and 50s as well under Jim Crow laws as. Fact check me on that one it’s hard to find the right stats.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3043071/

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vox.com/platform/amp/2014/8/12/5993075/...

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4880554/

Argument 1:

1. Trans people have much higher suicide attempt rate than most people.
2. This is not explained by bullying/discrimination since only populations subjected to extreme persecution like concentration camps experience similar rates.
3. Hence there seems to be no sufficient exterior explanation to trans people for their suicide rate.
4. The best explanation is something internal or phycological to trans people.
5. But a phycological condition that produces an increase in suicide attempts is a metal illness.
6. Hence trans people are mentally ill or tend to be mentally more often.
7. The specific difference between trans and the general population is their self identification/ being trans.
8. Finally, being trans must itself be a mental illness.

Argument 2:

1. Very delusional thinking is a sign of mental illness.
2. False beliefs of a basic aspect of ones identity is very delusional.
3. Example: I am the real Napoleon. But he died long ago? So what, I am he
4. Identifying oneself as male when you are female or vise versa is a false identification of ones basic identity.
5. Therefore trans people are mentally ill.

So, 4 needs explanation and defense because of the sex gender distinction people make. First I’ll lay out a simple defense made by trans advocates:

Sex is biological while gender is the sociological stereotypes associated with sex. Since the opposite sex can in fact have those sociological characteristics, they can be the gender which is not associated with their sex. A sexual male can be a female according to their gender.

The problem with this is the added premise that gender trumps sex in that a gender male is a REAL male regardless of sex. In other words the stereotype characteristics (excluding biological ones) are more important. This is false. Furthermore, why can’t we just say that is a man with more female personality characteristics than normal? The reason is that there is a vague belief by the trans person that on a deep ontological level they are actually the opposite sex of their sex. They have a female soul/brain despite having a male body. They should have been opposite but God/nature got it wrong. Like I said this is a vague belief and is different for different trans people.

Another problem with sex/gender distinction is that it is based on the belief that subjective beliefs change objective reality. Hence we can’t call Katlin Jenner a man or he, because he thinks he is a she so therefore he is she and not a he. What a mouth full.

Here is an argument from analogy why the sex/gender distinction is wrong:

1. A man says: I am biologically white/ my race is white.
2. But I have always had a deep since of being black/ identifying with blacks.
3. So, I am ethnically black. I really am black and if you don’t call me black then that’s hate speech. Also I get all black stuff to apply to me. So I can say we have been oppressed by racists and so on. After all, male to female trans can say you men have always been mistreating us women.
4. But even most leftists agree that this is absurd, especially since the same distinction of race/ethnicity could be applied across species (and is by some crazy people). Black or white is based on skin color/genes. Period.
5. But it is inconsistent to hold to 4 above and not to think the sex/gender distinction is wrong.
6. 4 is true and justified belief.
7. Hence, even leftists should agree the sex/gender distinction is wrong.

I do not write this to put down trans people or trans advocates. I do so because I am concerned that we hurt them and ourselves when we reinforce their delusions. Society can only believe in lies so long before it has negative consequences. We don’t tell a crazy person with audio/vision hallucinations that they are not physically real but that they are actually real in an objective way and your not crazy. Let’s not do that with trans people.

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chimp3's picture
The most important thing is

The most important thing is that you do not use your idiotic ideas to hurt or oppress other human beings. As long as your ideas are just forum drivel, no harm done.

Sheldon's picture
"Transgender people are

"Transgender people are mentally ill."

No they're not, that's just bigoted nonsense.

"Being trans is a mental illness and it is despicable to reinforce people’s mental illness. That’s my thesis "

No it's not a mental illness, and I'll defer to medical science on this, not your unevidenced claim.

Fact 1 contains not one single fact, you're simply labelling your bigoted assertions as fact, this does not make them so. A high suicide rate among people who are persecuted by bigots like yourself is not hard to explain, and the fault rests with the bigots like you, not with people who suffer gender dysphoria. Bigots like you have a choice, people who suffer gender dysphoria do not.

Fact 2. No they don't, you're a liar and a bigot.

Fact 3 Is another lie you've made up, though it speaks volumes about how much of a scumbag you are to use the Holocaust as a vehicle for your prejudiced bigotry. FYI the Holocaust is capitalised by literate people.

Fact 4 It's your claim you need to research it, and demonstrate evidence for it, though what possible point you're trying to make is hard to say.

Arguments

1. You're a bigot, and bigots persecute transgender people, it's no surprise that this results in despair and suicide. Hang your head in shame.
2. I have no idea what you're implying by your deep since (sic) of being black?
3. What one earth are you talking about, why should anyone care what skin colour you, or anyone else, have?
4. More barking mad nonsense, can anyone decipher this into English?
5. Again a translator would be helpful, English please?
6. 4 is not even comprehensible statement, so who can say if it is a justifiable belief.
7, Why do you keep saying leftist? What has this to do with your bigotry or transgender dysphoria?

"I do not write this to put down trans people or trans advocates. "

Liar.

"I do so because I am concerned that we hurt them and ourselves when we reinforce their delusions."

Liar.

"Society can only believe in lies so long before it has negative consequences."

That's rich given the bigoted prejudiced lies you're trying to pedal here. You're a troll or I am losing my touch.

"We don’t tell a crazy person with audio/vision hallucinations that they are not physically real but that they are actually real in an objective way and your not crazy. Let’s not do that with trans people."

Gender dysphoria is recognised by medical science, but is not classified as a mental illness. You're just parroting bigotry.

Get a life and grow up!

arakish's picture
Sheldon. Fabulous post.

Sheldon. Fabulous post. Better you than me. I'd've put all kinds of foul language in mine.

Dumb Ox. Never checked your links. No need to. You already spewed your bigotry in the OP.

rmfr

RedleT's picture
“not your unevidenced claim.”

“not your unevidenced claim.” That’s a lie, you just don’t like my evidence. Two can play at this game. Also, the bigotry charge is ad hominem if not backed up with argument and arguments to authority are the weakest form of argument.

Gender dysphoria use to be considered a mental illness until relatively recently. So who cares what the experts’ opinions are. What matter is why they believe them.

Are you disputing how high the suicide attempt rates are that I cited of trans people and those in concentration camps? If you are provide a counter study. If you are saying they are explained by bullying then explain how the bullying trans people receive is equivalent to those in concentration camps when it comes to suicide.

Also there are people who claim to be black when they are white. I have one women in mind ( Rachel Dolezal) in particular who was lambasted by the media for doing this. Do you think she is black? If not then explain how this is not analogous to trans people.

Also why is it my fault that I am a bigot but it’s not trans people’s fault that they commit suicide? I am not saying there that it is by the way, but why can’t I just be a product of ignorance or bias parents or something? Really. In fact why haven’t I committed suicide since I get called a bigot, a liar etc. I am a Catholic above everything else, but I am told by society that my faith is trash and the God of the Bible is evil. Why haven’t I committed suicide? Because I’m not mentally ill and can take it. This applies to other Christians as well. In fact, in countries and times where they are often persecuted with martyrdom, they don’t have high suicide rates. In fact, this applies probably to most religious minorities. Do I really need to look that up for you? And would you even take it as evidence in my favor?

Tin-Man's picture
Re: Anything recently posted

Re: Anything recently posted by Dumb Ox

Ladies and gentlemen, I know I am being Captain Obvious when I say this, but this thread is most definitely a target-rich environment. All I can say is, "Have fun." Personally, I am having difficulty choosing where to start. So many choices, so little time. At the same time, though, I almost feel a small touch of "guilt", because it just seems way too easy and somewhat unfair. Basically, there is just no real challenge to it, especially when the guy pretty much does most of the work for us in the first place. I just don't know....*strumming fingers on table meditatively*.... Dang-it.... Just seems soooo....soooo... Uh, well... It just seems like it would almost be overkill. Rather like using an M1 Abrams tank to squirrel hunt. Way too easy, obviously. Not to mention a massive waste of ammo. Golly gee, this is a helluva dilemma. Decisions, decisions...... *strumming fingers on table again*....

Tin-Man's picture
@Dumb Ox Re: ".....to do

@Dumb Ox Re: ".....to do with the ideological left which atheists tend to lean towards." And..."Being trans is a mental illness..."

Well, at least you live up to your name.

Edited for better clarity.

Tin-Man's picture
Let's view this from another

Let's view this from another perspective, shall we?.....

Christian bigots are mentally ill. Being a Christian bigot is a mental illness and it is despicable to reinforce people’s mental illness.

1. Very delusional thinking is a sign of mental illness.
2. False beliefs of a basic aspect of ones reality is very delusional.
3. Example: Jesus died on a cross a couple of thousand years ago. Jesus is still alive. But he died long ago? So what, he is still alive.
4. Identifying delusions as reality or vise versa is a false identification of ones basic reality.
5. Therefore, Christian bigots are mentally ill.

*drops microphone*....*walks away with hands in pockets and whistling merrily to self*....

RedleT's picture
A historical event is not a

A historical event is not a basic characteristic of ones identity in the way I mean it, obviously. People, who are sane, are wrong about that sort of stuff all of the time. Whether or not I am a man, or a dog or three legged or 300 pounds or the president are basic facts which you only get wrong if you are crazy. Are you actually saying almost all of the West was mentally ill for 1500 years? No your not. But I am saying trans people are because they make a basic error about themselves on a fundamental level.

Ramo Mpq's picture
Don't mind me I'm just

Don't mind me I'm just grabbing some popcorn

Ramo Mpq's picture
@dumb ox

@dumb ox

Look up a thread called "the transgender delusion". This topic has already been discussed. Might save you some time. Good luck

Sheldon's picture
You mean your thread where

You mean your thread where you indulged your own religious bigotry to repeatedly lie, and call it a mental disorder. You discussed nothing, and I'd bet you know as little about gender dysphoria now as you did when you posted that bigoted OP. That thread is why you're pretending to ignore me, because i don't care to be civil to people who espouse the worst kind of religious bigotry. It's so simple even you should be able to grasp it, a bigot has a choice yet chooses to espouse pernicious bigotry. However in stark contrast people with gender dysphoria don't have a choice and harm no one. Though they clearly scare religious bigots.

RedleT's picture
Thx I’ll have to when I get

Thx I’ll have to when I get some time.

Sapporo's picture
Argument 1: Female people are

Argument 1: Female people are mentally ill. Being female is a mental illness and it is despicable to reinforce people’s mental illness.

Fact 1:
Female people have significantly higher suicide attempt rates than almost every other population of non mentally ill people. Suicide attempts are between two and four times more frequent amongst female people.

Argument 2: Male people are mentally ill. Being male is a mental illness and it is despicable to reinforce people’s mental illness.

Fact 2:
Male people have significantly higher suicide rates than almost every other population of non mentally ill people. Male people are 80% more likely to commit suicide then female people.

RedleT's picture
Premises for an argument have

Premises for an argument have to be true you know. If my facts/premises are that easily disproven then do so. It’s common knowledge their suicide attempt rates are extremely high.

Sapporo's picture
Dumb Ox: Premises for an

Dumb Ox: Premises for an argument have to be true you know. If my facts/premises are that easily disproven then do so. It’s common knowledge their suicide attempt rates are extremely high.

Your premises can be used to pathologized both men and women.

Men are about 20 times more likely to commit murder than women, which according to you, means that men are mentally ill.

Artists are significantly more likely to commit suicide than the general population - according to you, this means that the creation of art is despicable.

There have also been studies which shows that intelligence is correlated with higher rates of suicide, which according to you, would mean that being intelligent is a mental illness and is despicable.

RedleT's picture
No that means men are, at the

No that means men are, at the extremes, way more violent than women. This is obvious. Suicide is extremely counter to our nature while murder is a product of our selfishness/motive/hardening by other criminal activity. Murder and suicide are radically different when it comes to determining if someone is mentally ill or not. Men tend to be violent/aggressive but most don’t take it to the extreme and focus it in a different way. Plus what percent of men attempt to murder someone? I bet you it’s below 1% or something. 1/100 males trying to murder is not equivalent to 30/100 trans people trying to commit suicide. You could switch murder for suicide to get my point both qualitatively and quantitatively.

“Artists are significantly more likely to commit suicide than the general population - according to you, this means that the creation of art is despicable.”

I need stats for this please. Also, we do need to look at other factors, like we do with Jews in concentration camps. So most artists tend to fail which maybe is extremely depressing since they put there life into it or maybe they make certain life style choices like drugs and so on.

If artists only have 1 to 10 percentage points above the average then factors like the above could explain it.

Stats for intelligent people please. I’ve heard the same for rich white males. Believe me I got theories for that but I doubt any of those stats approach trans stats.

TheBlindWatchmaker's picture
I think labelling it a mental

I think labelling it a mental illness is disingenuous at the very least and down plays the facts of the matter.

There have been plenty of studies albeit at reasonably small sample sizes that state that trans peoples brain display the same make up and patterns at that of the sex that believe they are.

So I would say at the lowest end of the scale, it should be considered a neurological issue and requires further investigation.

But to state that trans suicide rates are not linked to bullying (and within that narrow parameter we must add the likes of acceptance and so fourth) is staggering to me! It is hard as a women to get through a day at times without being gazed at, so I can only image the sort of looks trans people get and the feeling associated with that.

RedleT's picture
So black people are bullied

So black people are bullied more than whites but they do not have higher rates of suicide than white people. Furthermore, during Jim Crow they didn’t have 40 % suicide attempt rates. Are trans people bullied worse than that? Are trans bullied as bad as people in concentration camps? If not then a phycological explanation specific to being trans is the most likely explanation and hence the rest of my argument follows.

The neurology is interesting but people with mental illnesses sometimes have concrete neurological differences than normal people. As far as I am concerned it’s a non sequiter plus cause and effect would need to be explored.

Also suicide attempt rates don’t seem to vary too much with whether or not trans people perceive themselves as being accepted or not by people around them.

Sapporo's picture
@Dumb Ox

@Dumb Ox
The fact is, being transgender is not a mental illness.

David Killens's picture
Attempting to link mental

Attempting to link mental illness with suicide rates reeks of something very foul. Japanese students have an extraordinarily high rate, yet we do not call them mentally ill.

I have many close friends who can be generally referred as trans/gender confused. They are very wonderful and stable people. They do not display any vices or signs of mental illness. Their problems come from people who do not tolerate or understand their position.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9PY_3E3h2c

RedleT's picture
The reason that Japenise have

The reason that Japenise have a high suicide rate is because they have a religious/cultural belief on that. Plus I doubt they ha e suicide rates in the 40%. Also, I have an independent and collaborative argument on why being trans is a mental illness which makes the suicide rates a meaningful stat. Plus being trans is one of the only decernable differences between normal people and it is a subjective phycological difference. The only other ones I can think of are bullying and maybe they take more drugs or something?

“Their problems come from people who do not tolerate or understand their position.”

But I can’t say the same?

Sheldon's picture
You are making up asinine

You are making up asinine nonsense to defend your bigotry, nothing more. Your obsession with suicide rates is a front to pretend you care so that you can dictate to others how they should live. As well as a front, it's an effrontery to decency.

The tragically high suicide rate in gay lesbian bisexual and trans gender people is a direct result of having to cope with bullying prejudiced bigots.

When societies accept them for who they are with equal rights there is little doubt this tragedy will be avoided. Until then we have to listen to the kind of bigoted tripe you're regurgitating here, again you ought to be ashamed.

RedleT's picture
So do they get treated worse

So do they get treated worse than blacks did during Jim Crow? Yes or no. Blacks definitely didn’t have meat as high suicide rates. Do they get treated as bad as people in concentration camps? If you answer no to both of these then the factor of interest is not bullying. To my knowledge there is no kkk for trans people.

arakish's picture
Dumb Ox: So do they get

Dumb Ox: So do they get treated worse than blacks did during Jim Crow? Yes or no. Blacks definitely didn’t have meat as high suicide rates. Do they get treated as bad as people in concentration camps? If you answer no to both of these then the factor of interest is not bullying. To my knowledge there is no kkk for trans people.

So do they get treated worse than blacks did during Jim Crow? Yes or no.

YES! Just look at the way persons like you treat them.

Blacks definitely didn’t have meat as high suicide rates. Do they get treated as bad as people in concentration camps?

Bold Text: WTH?! Question: YES! Just look at the way persons like you treat them.

If you answer no to both of these then the factor of interest is not bullying. To my knowledge there is no kkk for trans people.

And it is KKK Dumb ASS. And yes there is a KKK for transgenders, they just call themselves Christians now.

rmfr

RedleT's picture
So Christians literally kill

So Christians literally kill trans people in a regular organized manner? I realize some don’t let them in their preferred bathroom but we serve them at restaurants. We don’t make them sit on one side of the restaurant and the like.

arakish's picture
So Christians literally kill

So Christians literally kill trans people in a regular organized manner?

Yep. By organizing rallies and bullying campaigns to lead them to suicide. Thus, yes, you Christians cause their deaths.

rmfr

Sheldon's picture
Is this really your benchmark

Is this really your benchmark for morality? Your religious beliefs have caused you to become an amoral automaton, with no empathy for the suffering of others.

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
Bloody hell are there still

Bloody hell are there still mentally ill people like Dumb Ox wandering about in society,unmedicated and untreated?

Well said Sheldon, Chimp 3 and everyone who called out this lying bigoted fool for his sheer affronting idiocy.

Whatever frightens you about trans people Dumb Ox is nowhere near as scary as what is going on in your flat head....get some treatment. You don't have an opinion, you have a grab bag of noisome prejudices backed up by lies and nonsense.

RedleT's picture
This is what I and

This is what I and conservatives get from much of society. But do we have significantly higher suicide rates? Furthermore, you can bet your house that won’t change much even if 90% of society were like you.

Sheldon's picture
I'm hardened to hear your

I'm heartened to hear your odious bigoted views are in a minority anyway.

Why do you care how consenting adults live their lives? It's none of your business. The idea that the high suicide rate among transgenders is not directly caused by the kind of bullying bigotry we see you espousing here is risible nonsense. Again, hang your head in shame.

(apologies for typos, phone and predictive text)

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