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how much emotion is the determining factor in some people’s beliefs
But they certainly cloud yours...
rmfr
Sun, 08/12/2018 - 20:3
Dumb Ox "I have heard that 70% of sceptics are for emotional reasons."
Mon, 08/13/2018 - 11:09
Dumb Ox "it’s hard to say from that how much emotion is the determining factor in some people’s beliefs."
Atheism isn't a belief, and I am changing your name from Dumb Ox to Dumb-ass.
“Sex is biological while gender is the sociological stereotypes associated with sex.”
Gender is the LEARNING of sociological stereotypes.
And gender is imprinted, just like your native language is imprinted.
Would I be called delusional if I told you I was an English speaker?
My gender is just as real as my language.
Hey PerceptionLies. Ain't seen ya in a while. Welcome back. Good post.
rmfr
yeah... I really had better stuff to do than debate with Mr. Terf. But I'm a glutton for punishment, and someone always draws me back. It's suspiciously like the trauma patient who has to face the trauma again and again. Lol.
Hey there, Perception! How ya been? Good, I hope. Good to see you again. This thread has been a real hoot so far. lol
Edit to add: Apparently, the Dumb Ox has a few issues he is trying to work out. He's not exactly off to a great start, though. *chuckle*
Edit to add: Apparently, the Dumb Ox has a few issues he is trying to work out. He's not exactly off to a great start, though. *chuckle*
In actuality, me thinks Dumb Ox is having problems with his gender association.
rmfr
The thing is that they won’t tolerate just being called a man who has more female characteristics. They want to be able to play the opposite sex’s sports, including boxing.
Furthermore what do you do with my argument from analogy. Is a white person who identifies as black actually black in the same way Katlin Jenner is a women?
"they won’t tolerate just being called a man who has more female characteristics. They want to be able to play the opposite sex’s sports, including boxing."
You're talking complete nonsense. Again offer some citation or evidence for your BS, or Hitchens's razor is applied.
"Furthermore what do you do with my argument from analogy. Is a white person who identifies as black actually black in the same way"
Gender dysphoria is a clinically recognised phenomenon. Gender identity is part of who a person is. Again please offer a citation to evidence your analogy is in any way comparable to gender dysphoria.
You're using the "slippery slope" fallacy theists and apologists love to use whenever they want to deny someone else's rights that doesn't fit their bigoted stereotypes.
It’s common knowledge and has been on the news before that male to female trans people have played in women sports and kicked ass just because males naturally have more testosterone and are more athletic/strong in general. Just google it if you doubt me.
I have cited a case of a white women who said she is black despite the fact that she is biologically white. Are you saying it’s impossible for a white person to think they are black the same way a man says he is a women? That would need a citation. The analogy is manifest. I don’t need a citation for that.
"It’s common knowledge"
No it's not, Hitchens's razor, and I gave you the chance to evidence your claim as well.
"has been on the news before that male to female trans people have played in women sports "
Not remotely what you claimed, are you illiterate? You made a generic claim, now it turns out yet again you have no proper evidence for that claim. Your are taking examples that suit your bigotry, and dishonestly implying they represent the norm, just to create a negative stereotype that again suits your own prejudice and agenda.
"I have cited a case of a white women who said she is black despite the fact that she is biologically white. "
What has that got to do with my question? Seriously read it again, carefully, and note I didn't deny your example: "Gender dysphoria is a clinically recognised phenomenon. Gender identity is part of who a person is. Again please offer a citation to evidence your analogy is in any way comparable to gender dysphoria."
"Are you saying it’s impossible for a white person to think they are black the same way a man says he is a women? "
No, I am asking you to show evidence that they are relevant analogous comparison, just reread what I asked more carefully.
"The analogy is manifest. I don’t need a citation for that."
So you're again implying this woman's claim is comparable to gender dysphoria, a clinically recognised condition. Then yes you will a) have to offer a citation to evidence that claim, then b) explain how it is comparable to the intense and unrelenting emotional distress of gender dysphoria. Lastly what is it you think can be done to help this woman, and why does that example in any way imply the medical world is wrong about gender dysphoria, but validates your bigoted claims that transgender people are delusional and mentally ill?
The analogy is not manifest at all, and you haven't remotely demonstrated any evidence that your comparison is relevant to your claims, and that much IS manifest..
“The thing is that they won’t tolerate just being called a man who has more female characteristics.”
My gender doesn’t have to do with what I do. It has to do with what I’ve been taught I SHOULD do. We imprint BOTH the gender and what we should do because of it: ie: I am a GIRL so I should like PINK, whether or not I do.
A male bodied person who is feminine has nothing to do with it. It’s all about which gender they imprinted.
“They want to be able to play the opposite sex’s sports, including boxing.”
I admit, they do have a problem with that. But they had a problem before trans people, when they confronted what to do about intersex people. All people have a range of testosterone, and men’s and women’s overlaps.
“Is a white person who identifies as black actually black in the same way Katlin Jenner is a women?”
I think it boils down to: do we imprint race the same as we do gender?
I think as a species, gender is much more important than race. Gender is linked to sex, so much that we thought it was the same thing not too many years ago. And sex is the most important thing to a sexed species, or they would die. Thus we begin to imprint gender roles as early as 18 months.
Do we imprint race in the same way? We only have one example of a woman who claims she did, and we can see that she is doing it to get something. I would think that more people would come out as transracial if they did imprint it.
So if I found a bunch of people who seemed to be honestly transracial or trans species, would you agree that that undermines the sex gender distinction or that those new distinctions would be just as valid? Also could you define gender?
"...would you agree that that undermines the sex gender distinction or that those new distinctions would be just as valid?"
If we found that people imprint other things, that imprint would be valid . But finding people who say they imprinted things is different from finding people who actually did.
Imprinting changes your brain permanently, and after the critical time period, can't be changed.
I think the real question is: why do we imprint "boy" or "girl"? We do it so young that we can't go back and ask them!
And this applies to everyone. YOU imprinted with boy or girl.* Why? The fact that most male bodied people identify with boy, and vice versa, tells me that the reason has something to do with biology. But it's not having a penis or not, because most toddlers don't know that's why we call them boy or girl.
"Also could you define gender?"
In this context, I'm using gender to mean what we've imprinted: "I'm a boy and therefore I should ____" or "I'm a girl and therefore I should ____". But words are contextual.
* I believe that people could either not imprint normally (agender), or imprint both (non-binary), as well.
"So if I found a bunch of people who seemed to be honestly transracial or trans species, would you agree that that undermines the sex gender distinction or that those new distinctions would be just as valid? "
I already answered this, why do theists relentlessly repeat their claims and then ignore all the answers? I'll dumb it down for you with bullet points.
1) What medical citations can you offer to support the idea your examples are a clinical condition, rather than a simple delusion? Medical science does not class transgender or the resulting gender dysphoria as a delusion, or a mental illness or disorder, as you have been told, but yet keep ignoring.
2) Assuming you can offer anything beyond your anecdotal examples for 1) what medical evidence can you cite those examples are suffering emotional distress remotely comparable to gender dysphoria.
3) Now assuming you can demonstrate anything for 1) and 2) how are you suggesting your hypothetical examples could be helped, and why would this alter the fact that transgender and the resulting dysphoria is a real phenomena that can be helped by medical procedures like gender re-assignment and hormone medication, and most of all by being treated with tolerance and understanding?
So you see your example has no relevance to gender dysphoria, either way. As transgender and the resulting dysphoria remains a medically recognised fact, and they are suffering intense emotional distress and need help.
"Also could you define gender?"
Yes, can't you?
Dumb ox
Maybe the person who appears white has a black mother or father. Maybe they claim both the white and black heritage and culture.
Yes.
That is why race is also a social construct. And this person could rightly claim both.
Hey Dumb Ox,
You mean like this National Geographic issue I have at home?
https://i.imgur.com/BYM2sE2.jpg
rmfr
Edit: issue available here: http://press.nationalgeographic.com/2018/03/12/the-race-issue-national-geographic-magazine-april-2018/
2nd Edit: Sorry, my bad. Story is actually here: https://www.nationalgeographic.com/magazine/2018/04/race-twins-black-white-biggs/
Accusing somebody of being mentally ill because of what they like in the bedroom? That's despicable. I think you are the mentally ill person for bringing it up.
Oh, and stop peeking in the window, nothing to see here.
Re the OP
Try talking to and listening to a trans person. Hers a good start. See the pic below. https://www.facebook.com/assignedmale/
And try some reality, its heady stuff and maybe you will discover the meaning of the words empathy and compassion.
Attachments
Attach Image/Video?:
Dumb ox
You are a bigot and racist. Did your religion teach you to be bigoted and racist?
Give evidence of racism otherwise this is a bigoted lie based on the fact that disagree with you on transgender issues.
Here is where Dumb Ox gets it all from. Since his God is a bigot, so is Dumb Ox...
Bully - a person who uses strength or power to harm or intimidate those who are weaker.
Exodus 10:1-2
Exodus 14:4
Exodus 15:6-8
Exodus 9:15-16
Exodus 9:16
Leviticus 24:16
Deuteronomy 28:58-59
Deuteronomy 32:39
Job 40:1-2
Job 40:6-9
Job 9:22-23
Job 9:30-31
Psalm 46:8-10
Isaiah 2:19
Ezekiel 20:25-26
Ezekiel 20:25-26
Ezekiel 28:22-23
Ezekiel 28:22-23
Ezekiel 38:19-20
Ezekiel 38:22-23
Ezekiel 6:5-10
Habakkuk 3:3-6
Homophobic - having or showing an extreme and irrational aversion to homosexuality and homosexual people.
Leviticus 18:22
Leviticus 20:13
Misogynistic - a person who dislikes, despises, or is strongly prejudiced against women.
Genesis 3:16
Exodus 20:17
Exodus 21:7
Exodus 22:29-31
Exodus 23:17
Leviticus 6:14-18
Leviticus 12:1-5
Leviticus 27:1-7
Numbers 3:15,28
Numbers 5:15-31
Numbers 30:1-8,16
Numbers 31:17-18
Numbers 31:25-35
Numbers 36:8-12
Deuteronomy 22:20-21
Deuteronomy 24:1-4
Judges 1:12-13
Judges 5:30
Judges 8:30-31
2 Samuel 12:11
Job 14:1-4
Job 25:4
Isaiah 19:16
Jeremiah 8:9-10
Lamentations 1:8-9
Ezekiel 36:16-17
Hosea 9:1
Nahum 3:4-6
Racist - showing or feeling discrimination or prejudice against people of other races, or believing that a particular race is superior to another.
Exodus 11:7
Exodus 23:23–33
Leviticus 25:44–46
Numbers 25:5
Deuteronomy 7:1–6
Deuteronomy 7:6
Deuteronomy 23:3–6
Nehemiah 13:3
Nehemiah 13:23–30
What About Jesus?
John 10:30 - I and the Father are one.
'Nuff said.
rmfr
“Racist - showing or feeling discrimination or prejudice against people of other races, or believing that a particular race is superior to another.
Exodus 11:7
Exodus 23:23–33
Leviticus 25:44–46
Numbers 25:5
Deuteronomy 7:1–6
Deuteronomy 7:6
Deuteronomy 23:3–6
Nehemiah 13:3
Nehemiah 13:23–30
“
You do realize that I interpret all of those passages in a non racist way. So, even if my interpretation is wrong, that still doesn’t mean I am a racist. It just means the Bible is. So do you agree with xenoview that I am a racist? If so back it up please.
So do you agree with xenoview that I am a racist? If so back it up please.
If a bigot, always a bigot. Bigot/Racist? Same thing in my book. All of your posts in this thread show you are just a bigoted bigot/racist. Whether you are called a racist or a bigot, same thing Dumb Ox. You are a racist if you are bigoted against anyone different.
Can I be called a racist if I am bigoted against bigots? By definition I would have to say yes. I am also a racist. However, my racism is just against bigots, not against anyone just because they are different than I am.
What would you call me if I were to tell you that I find beautiful black women more attractive than beautiful white women? And I am Caucasian. Does that make me a racist? What about if I happen to find Oriental women the most attractive women in the entire world? Am I still a racist?
I could care less what color your skin is or who you want to fuck in privacy. If it ain't hurting no one else, I don't give a damn. Be with whomever you want. Be whatever gender you want. I do not give a damn.
But as soon as you start to hurt others with your bigotry, then I have a problem. As far as I am concerned, people like you should be eradicated from the gene pool. Then all I can do is hope you don't reproduce. 'Cause if you did, I'd feel sorry for your children being raised by a bigot/racist like you.
rmfr
Dumb ox
Your bible is full of racism, do you believe your bible is true, and the word of your God? If you believe in your bible then you are a racist and bigoted.
Considering that theists have a special penchant for pornography involving animals, does this mean bestiality is morally permissible?
So Christians literally kill trans people in a regular organized manner?
“Yep. By organizing rallies and bullying campaigns to lead them to suicide. Thus, yes, you Christians cause their deaths.
rmfr“
From the first page.
My whole point is trans people don’t get treated as badly as blacks during Jim Crow or as people in concentration camps. You say the are treated as badly. I ask for evidence of killings or beatings or not being allowed to eat at a restaurant and so forth. And all you can do is say that they tend to be suicidal because we don’t agree with the sex gender distinction. That we cause their suicides. So basically your only piece of evidence for it not being internal on their part is that people like me do not call them their preferred pronouns and what not? Why doesn’t that sort of “bullying” cause suicides in other populations?
"My whole point is trans people don’t get treated as badly as blacks during Jim Crow or as people in concentration camps."
Black people during Jim Crow and trans people in the here and now are two completely different animals.
Trans kids are kicked out onto the street and ostracized by their families. I suspect that didn't happen much to black kids in black homes. Trans kids and adults are told that they are disgusting, both physically and morally - and this is often by their peers. Their closest friends and family. I have several trans friends who had literally never met another trans person until AFTER their families had already disowned them. That is an incredibly isolated and terrifying place to be in, which can lead to suicide. In my experience, it is incredibly rare for trans people who are not yet out of the closet to know many other trans people. They don't have the opportunity to create community because it's DANGEROUS. If they are found out to be trans, they risk serious emotional and physical harm.
There are other factors to consider in your comparison, such as culture. In the Jim Crow era, black people could create communities and cultures in which to support each other emotionally. They could create entire neighborhoods, churches, family networks, etc. in order to band together. Trans people don't have that luxury, even after they are out and have transitioned, there just aren't the numbers to allow for that kind of community.
I suspect that you don't personally know many trans people because if you did, you wouldn't speak of them in generalizations like this. It's pretty easy to sit in your armchair and theorize about how you in your mighty wisdom can diagnose this entire community better than the professionals. You don't have to listen to your friends in deep emotional pain from losing their families, losing custody of their children, losing their jobs, being treated as less than human, and wishing more than anything that they could just be treated like the average person.
@Stone Jade
*standing in seat jumping up and down and clapping vigorously*.... Yes yes yes!!!....*shrill whistling*..... Get 'im, girl! Whooop-whooop-whooop! Dammit, where is that 1000 Agrees button?!?...*almost falls out of chair*...Oh, shit....*continuous clapping and cheering*....
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