Transgender ideology and mental illness

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turning_left's picture
"I ask for evidence of

"I ask for evidence of killings or beatings or not being allowed to eat at a restaurant and so forth."

Also, I have multiple friends that have been beaten, raped, fired from jobs, revoked custody of their children, kicked out of retail stores and refused service at restaurants - all with the perpetrators being clear that the reason was that they were trans. I don't have research to show you, but I could introduce you to some trans people who have been to hell and back.

arakish's picture
As have I. ^^^^^

As have I. ^^^^^

Ramo Mpq's picture
@dumb Ox

@dumb Ox

Everything you are saying has already been said. Most of the people here can't handle anything that does not 100% conform to their view. Transgender delusion thread was started by me and met with the 100% exact same responses you are getting now. Whenever you make a valid point they cant argue with you will be insulted and called a bigot. They will personally attack you instead of your ideas yet, call you a bigot lol its truly funny. This whole gender vs sex thing is made up anyway. Sex and Gender are the exact same. Many qualified and respected scientists have said the same thing. Good luck but, you are arguing with people that do NOT want to listen, trust me, i have a few different times being as nice and respectful as possible yet, the power of the theists living rent free in the minds of most atheists here is just too powerful for them to overcome for even 2 mins and try to think clearly and say 1 coherent thing that's not cloud by religion. Also, just to clarify, while i do think the whole transgender issue is not normal i still think they deserve love, care, respect and help getting over this. No, its not normal when a 62 year old man thinks hes a 9 year old girl nor is it normal when a woman thinks she's a cat nor is it normal when a man thinks he's a woman but, this does not mean we should mistreat them rather, we need to help them.

For reference if you care to save yourself some time or find some good points that were made.

Sheldon's picture
Is it ever morally acceptable

Is it ever morally acceptable for a 50+ year old man to have sex with a nine year old girl?

arakish's picture
Apparently only if you are

Apparently only if you are Muslim/Islamic.

Sorry, Sheldon, these Fuzzies are really jumping tonight...


arakish's picture
@ SfT (have you started

@ SfT (have you started watching X-Files yet? the truth is out there.)

Most of the people here can't handle anything that does not 100% conform to their view.

And here is the other dumb ox. It is not a matter of conforming to our views. It is a matter when sorry dumb ass bigots like you and Dumb Ox come here to spew the diarrhea of your bigotry.

Y'all's bigotry can be summed up as, if it ain't conforming to your religious beliefs, then it is a mental illness. I have posted links to articles that show that belief in religion is the actual mental illness. Now some of those Journal Article/Papers were loaned to me by others. Thus, I ain't gonna give them to you. And I have seen others doing simple searches on journal article/paper websites. If I can find them, so can you. Unless of course your religiosity has damaged your brain so severely that you are too mentally retarded.

Yes. There have been actual medical studies into the physical effects religion has on the brain. Not surprising that the results show that hard-core, inexorable, religious belief damages the brain just as severely as prolonged drug use. Just different areas of the brain. With religion, it is the actual capacity for critical thinking, logical deduction, analytical thought, and reasoning/rationality. Thus, is it any wonder that a long-term religious person is incapable of understanding anything scientific/logical/rational?

Summation: You are just as big a racist/bigot as Dumb Ox. And the biggest problem is that you two are proud to be racists/bigots.


Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ Arakish

@ Arakish

Standing ovation from the bleachers as yet another home run knocked out of the park....Buys crackerjacks and a hotdog, settles in for the body pitches that are sure to follow.

jonthecatholic's picture
This thread seems familiar. I

This thread seems familiar. I’ll bring up the point I did back back then. People here are accusing Dumb Ox of bigotry when that just isn’t the case.

Is being trans a mental disorder? That’s the core question.

Dumb Ox’s point is simple. If it is, then it must be treated as such. Meaning reinforcing it will only end up hurting the individual.

If it isn’t, then why are suicide rates so high among the trans community? My research shows that the rates don’t improve after gender reassignment either.

The idea that they should be able to live their lives however they want even if they’re hurting themselves is born out of the lack of genuine care for their well being.

This issue isn’t even a theist-atheist issue. But the amount of name calling from the start of the thread tells me that well, when all else fails, call them names.'s picture
"My research shows that the

"My research shows that the rates don’t improve after gender reassignment either."

My research shows it does. For example:

Also, being told you are not your gender at a young age is traumatic. Growing up in the wrong gender is traumatic. Trauma leads to C-PTSD, so even if you transition you will have to deal with that.

But young kids who are allowed to be their gender have normal mental health.

arakish's picture
why are suicide rates so high

why are suicide rates so high among the trans community?

Because of the constant pestering, hounding, bullying, demonizing, disparagement, and bigotry by people such as JoC, SfT, and DOx.

If y'all would just shut the fuck up with your bigotry, this world would be infinitely better off.


Sheldon's picture
Of course his remarks

Of course his remarks represent the worst kind of religious bigotry, and no, being transgender or sufferring gender dysphoria is not considered a mental illness. The question itself is bigoted and shows an astonishing lack of empathy and morality.

It's very telling that only religious posters are attacking and insulting transgender people as well. So much for their arrogant claims for superior / objective morality.

Religion fought abolitionism, they've opposed women's rights, gay rights, and now transgender rights. Religions have a very narrow view of what constitutes correct human behaviour and this clearly doesn't care about human suffering.

Again the kind of thought process that can cry over an insentient blastocyst, but not care that their bigotry is driving people to suicide just says it all really. The sooner decent people and societies jettison these amoral superstitious doctrines the better off we'll all be.

Sheldon's picture
So you think it's fine to

So you think it's fine to insult someone for being transgender, but then when someone calls them a bigot for posting those insults, you object? That's absurdly irrational. Someone can just choose to be a bigot or not, just choose to keep those bigoted views to themselves or not, but someone cannot just choose to not suffer from gender dysphoria. So I will always object to people being insulted for who or what they are, but have no problem with anyone being insulted for voicing their religious bigotry, insults are what they deserve.

And yes it absolutely is bigotry to lie (as SFT did) and repeatedly call transgender people mentally ill when they're not, because he is getting his "morality" form cherry picking bronze and iron age superstitions.

LogicFTW's picture
A little late to the party,

A little late to the party, but here goes my reply to the original post:

Fact 1:
Trans people have significantly higher suicide attempt rates than almost every other population of non mentally ill people. Studies suggest suicide attempt rates as high as 46% or about 20 times the norm. The lowest I’ve seen claimed is about 15% and the average rate is 4.5 for the general population according to some studies.

So you are saying Transgender people are mentally ill, then for your first fact you compare them to non mentally ill people, if you are comparing them to "non mentally ill people" are you saying that transgenders are not mentally ill? I am guessing you are stating life time averages in all those numbers, even the 4.5% rate for general population cannot be a yearly rate, or we would not have the population growth we have now.

Fact 2:
Studies show at most mixed evidence for improvement after gender reassignment surgery.

I do not have any real problems with this answer, but what are you trying to say here? Because the results are a wash opting for transgender surgery does not help stave suicide? Well I remain quite confident a vast majority of people that undergo transgender surgeries are not doing the surgery in attempt to prevent themselves from commiting suicide later they usually opt for transgender surgery for other, usually intensely personal reasons.

Fact 3:
Jews during the holocaust/ in concentration camps had possibly 30 times the rate of suicide attempts as the general public and is one of the few populations with suicide rates comparable with trans people in western societies.

So what are you exactly trying to say here, Jewish people in the holocaust facing extraordinary persecution commited a lot of suicide, and transgenders commit slightly less rates then that? All that tells me is that transgender people are also terribly persecuted. This sounds like a real problem. We should all be trying to end such terrible persecution, you just made an excellent argument for all of us to set our fear of "different" aside and embrace and support these people that face so much persecution.

Fact 4:
African Americans have lower suicide rates than their white counterparts. I believe this applied in the 60s and 50s as well under Jim Crow laws as. Fact check me on that one it’s hard to find the right stats.

You are correct on that, afaik, suicide as a whole, is a problem that tends to afflict the most privileged in many ways, out of all races and genders, the white male in advance western societies has the highest suicide rates. Over females, and over people of other skin color. I am a white male, and 2 people that I actually knew that committed suicide out all of all the people I know were well white males. Small sample size to be sure, but the larger data sizes backs this up.

2. This is not explained by bullying/discrimination since only populations subjected to extreme persecution like concentration camps experience similar rates.

Really? Really really? You in your argument pointed out why your argument does not work. Let us look at where high suicide rates occur. Like your example, concentration camps = extreme persecution, high suicide rates. Another example: high suicide rates in jails. Another place where people can face extreme persecution. Are we seeing a pattern here yet? Heavy/extreme persecution = high suicide rates. What do you think transgender people face? Low persecution? Open loving acceptance and kindness everywhere they go? Of Course not!

With transgender people it is often times worse, they face heavy persecution from their own families and friends, their own parents not even talking to them anymore because they disagree. At least for jewish people or minorities they at least would have a base support of their own family and communities. I would take the persecution the jewish people faced in Germany in the run up to World War 2 over a being transgender in a family that would not support me in a transgender transition. With your 2nd point in this argument being incorrect your entire argument falls apart.

2. False beliefs of a basic aspect of one's identity is very delusional.

This got discussed heavily in the last thread, but gender identity is different then biological sex. Every transgender I have met or read about are very, all to probably painfully aware of their biological sex. They know what they were born with, they are not being delusional about that. But on the gender side, that is subjective, divorced from the objective reality of biological sex. Just like how a woman that went through menopause can no longer have babies (objective fact) does not change their subjective opinion that they identify as a female gender. There also plenty of transgenders that do not do any transgender surgery but still want to identify as the gender of their choosing. Nothing delusional about that, they are not denying reality. In fact in transgender surgery they are facing it and changing some biological facts about themselves.

The problem with this is the added premise that gender trumps sex in that a gender male is a REAL male regardless of sex.

I have never seen a transgender person make this claim. If they did even I would refute it. If you tried to tell me your biological sex was male, when you have all the sexual and biological traits of a female, I would have issue with that, simply on the grounds that is incorrect information. Again you need to divorce the idea of gender and biological sex. If we are talking gender, then gender takes priority, if we are talking biological sex then biological sex takes priority. If I am a doctor and I am checking for cancer, I am concerned about do I check for prostate cancer or not, I need to know the biological gender of that person. If I am a doctor and I want to support the well being of a person by treating them with respect, I will address them in their prefered pronoun to show acceptance for their chosen gender identity.

on a deep ontological level they are actually the opposite sex of their sex

If people think they are the opposite biological sex, in biological terms when they are not, this does create an issue, some transgender people do think about and struggle with this, they will be well served to separate out biological sex facts from their gender identity. I would love to be able to fly around like superman, but I am well served to know that no matter what, I cannot fly, I do not have wings or the muscles to flap wings if I had them, biological fact. But if I want to put on a superman cape and identify as superman that is fine as long as I stick to the fact that no I cannot jump off buildings and expect to fly. Just like a transgender woman no matter how much she wishes is not going to have eggs and the ability to carry a baby 9 months to term within their own bodies. At least for now, barring further medical advancement this is reality to a transgender woman. Just like it is biological reality for a woman past menopause cannot have their own babies, (although that particular fact is rapidly changing.)

They should have been opposite but God/nature got it wrong. Like I said this is a vague belief and is different for different trans people.

If I had to guess, this is where I am guessing your hostility ultimately stems from: it is an affront to god, it is people telling your god idea that: "nope! god got it wrong!"

1. A man says: I am biologically white/ my race is white.
2. But I have always had a deep since of being black/ identifying with blacks.
3. So, I am ethnically black. I really am black and if you don’t call me black then that’s hate speech.

It is not hate speech to call someone a female that identifies as a male to be female, or to call a male that identifies as a female as a male. That can be an honest mistake, a kind generous person would seek to avoid the situation and correct themselves. Just like you were alluding to, if I am white but I go around identify as black, if someone were to yell out "hey white man! Help me with this door!" That is not hate speech. That is an honest mistake that is likely to happen a lot if I had white skin and was out in public where people did not realize I identified as black.

Transgenders while they can be sensitive to what gender pronouns you use, must also realize people will get it wrong. The hard part of course for them, that becomes a real struggle on top of all the other persecution is that it is frequently very important to them for their outward appearance to closely reflect their gender identity, a lot of their ego frequently gets tied up into how they are perceived. Just like how a woman that was unusually hairy, big boned and muscular with a lot of other commonly male attributes will also be likely hurt if someone called them by a male pronoun instead of female, how they both are biologically and via their chosen gender identity. Imagine if you had very female characteristics. You are biologically a male, you identify as a male, but it just so happens you have very smooth skin, a face with lots of feminine characteristics, perhaps your voice is even pitched higher than most males how sensitive would you be if people occasionally mistook you for being female?

Eh I will stop here, I have plenty more to say about this but who knows if anyone will read it all :)

arakish's picture
Gosh I love it when I can

Gosh I love it when I can read some other logical person's mile long post.

Great job LogicForTW.

***still looking for that 10-K Agree button***


Nyarlathotep's picture
dumb oxStudies suggest

Dumb Ox - Studies suggest suicide attempt rates as high as 46% or about 20 times the norm. The lowest I’ve seen claimed is about 15% and the average rate is 4.5 for the general population according to some studies.

You're right. And I'm sure you noticed but didn't seem to mention: that quoted statement relies on some pretty funny math. If 4.5% is the rate for the general population, and if the rate for transgender is 20 times the norm, it would be about 90%; not 46% (not that I'm saying 90% is accurate either, but it would at least be consistent with the other numbers given).

LogicFTW's picture


I admittedly did rush my response, reading back through my post I wince at some of my typos and grammatical errors. You bring up a good point, worth mentioning, Dumb Ox numbers are off, and basic arithmetic of the numbers he provided are off, not by a little, but by a lot, which instantly begs the question of: just how accurate are any of the numbers he posted if just a cursory glance at numbers given do not even add up.

Thanks for the agree/like.

As I stated in my post at the end I was worried my post ran long and people would not have the time to read it.

RedleT's picture
Those stats are from

Those stats are from different sources.

LogicFTW's picture
You failed to mention that,

You failed to mention that, and that is actually a serious omission. All you did was list 3 different links and start combing all the stats into a single line.

It also looks bad when you cite sources that contradict each other pretty badly.

algebe's picture
@Dumb Ox: Transgender people

@Dumb Ox: Transgender people are mentally ill.

I think Reg is the stupidest and most annoying character in "Life of Brian". Loretta should have given him a knuckle sandwich.

arakish's picture
And here is a FACT for

And here is a FACT for everyone.

Every last person on this Earth is mentally ill in their own unique way in their own magnitude. Now some are really out there, like the Absolutists, and the Jeffry Dahmers, and Osama bin Laden, and others.

EVERY person is mentally ill. Just that most have a magnitude that is very low.


ʝօɦռ 6IX ɮʀɛɛʐʏ's picture


Ramo Mpq's picture


LOL typical absolutist to claim such an absolute statement

turning_left's picture
Research has shown that trans

Research has shown that trans kids with supportive parents are almost indistinguishable from cisgender kids when looking at mental health. That is truly exciting and encouraging to me. Being trans doesn't have to be traumatic.

If being trans was a mental illness, the negative affects wouldn't disappear when kids were simply loved and supported by their parents and communities.

LogicFTW's picture
Thank you for that article.

Thank you for that article. Sadly I know of a teenager transitioning to male that is not being supported by his family. I in the most polite possible manner passed that article along to the parents of the teenager. While I know it is not my place to tell parents how to parent their children, I feel this teenager needs all the help he can get to get support he needs from those closest to him.

RedleT's picture
LogicFTW's picture
I think it fair to assume

I think it fair to assume these otherkin by and large do not act like the animals they intimate. They may want to act and think like they are animals they really are not and they know this. They want to be say a house cat, but they know they are not.

If I took all the worldly possessions of a person that thinks they are a cat (or whatever non human animal you pick) do you think these people are so committed to being a cat, they will idly stand by while I robbed them blind? A real house cat would, heck a friendly house cat probably would come over for pets right after you took everything they or their owners owned.

Even the act of communicating "I am a cat!" is distinctly not cat like. I seen some dedicated cat otherkins eat canned cat food or dry food on occasion, but I dont think very many of them would try and hunt down a mouse all day and play with its dead body and maybe get around to eating it, if the person got hungry enough.

Comparing otherkin to transgenders is extremely problematic and is often used as a weapon by transgender phobics to try and win points in their arguments.

Even despite all this, if you are a kind generous person that wants to support people that are a little different, you embrace them and support these people as long as they are not hurting others or themselves. Plus dedicated full time "otherkin" number in the hundreds world wide, where transgender people number in the millions. Not to belittle otherkin, but again it makes comparison exceedingly difficult.

xenoview's picture
Dumb ox

Dumb ox
Now your trying to change the subject to something new. So now your directing your bigotry at other kin?

Tin-Man's picture
@Xeno Re: Dumb Ox changing

@Xeno Re: Dumb Ox changing subjects

Rather like playing Whack-A-Mole with this guy, isn't it? *chuckle*

arakish's picture
Rather like playing Whack-A

Rather like playing Whack-A-Mole with this guy, isn't it? *chuckle*

And I already played this twice before with him.

He switches subjects once he realizes he has been spanked.


Tin-Man's picture
@Arakish Re: "And I already

@Arakish Re: "And I already played this twice before with him (Dumb Ox). He switches subjects once he realizes he has been spanked."

In the interest of trying to be optimistic and offer some sort of positive feedback, at least the guy would make a great instructor at prairie dog school.


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