To be honest, I would give an arm and a leg to live in blissful ignorance and suspect life has an infinite time frame rather than a finite time frame. Knowing what I do about religious shit and dogmatic bullshit makes me fill fulfilled with knowing the most logical way the world works. But, theres no way I think it beats living in blissful ignorance and going through life with a "guaranteed" end goal that you absolutely believe till you die.
I'd rather live in blissful ignorance solely because it just has a better outcome on your deathbed compared to its counterpart. If I could choose to be blissfully ignorant I would.
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Well, of course it's preferable to be blissfully oblivious of the net result of life. I say it often; if atheism describes you, you'd better be tough. It isn't for the weak of heart. When I rounded the corner of religion and encountered atheism I was duly notified at that moment that not only was I on a short trip, I'd been duped into thinking it was just the opposite. I hated people (parents included) for a long time for running that scam on me until I (eventually) rationalized their fears and gave them a kitchen pass.
Why not say, then, 'What you would give to be blissfully ignorant,' rather than Christian?
Too insulting. We're trying to be thoughtful of all people, not hateful. I can't berate a person for who they are anymore. I have to respect them as I would expect them to respect me. If they can't reciprocate, that's fine. That's when I give them their fears to grapple with. If religion and gods give them courage, who am I to take that away?
You think that to imply that in order to be a Christian the poster would have to be oblivious to "religious shit and dogmatic bullshit" without "knowing the most logical way the world works" - to be "blissfully ignorant" isn't insulting to Christians but to remove that xenophobic specific application and make a non-specific one of being blissfully ignorant would be insulting? To whom? The blissfully ignorant?
Hi Pitar, You seem like a very nice man and I appreciate your comments, I was also wondering what you do with your fear if you have any? And if you do what gives you courage and can yours be taken from you?
I can see the attraction. Religion provides community, a sense of purpose, and even lets you believe that you and everyone you care about are eternal. It does have a cost, however, and that should be considered as well. It is divisive, exclusive, and leads to the devaluation and waste of the life that we have. I can't say I envy the religious, myself, because I have always preferred a hard truth to a false hope.
HI Travis, First of all I would like to ask you how you know for certain that we are not eternal beings? I would like to know where you got this information because I believe God placed eternity in all of us. We don't know what the world was like before us and we don't know what the world will be like when we are gone and yet we feel as if we have always been here. Also I am wondering what your truth is?
"HI Travis, First of all I would like to ask you how you know for certain that we are not eternal beings?"
Eternal things do not begin to exist.
"I would like to know where you got this information because I believe God placed eternity in all of us."
Hmm...
"We don't know what the world was like before us..."
You don't know much about paleontology or geology, do you...
"...and we don't know what the world will be like when we are gone..."
We don't know when we will be gone. If we manage to last as a species until the sun swells up in the first stages of its death, it will destroy all life on the planet.
"...and yet we feel as if we have always been here."
I don't, most people don't, and almost every culture has a creation myth that shows that they don't either. I really don't know where you get this idea.
"Also I am wondering what your truth is?"
What can be demonstrated to be true.
Yes, I agree eternal things don't begin to exist unless they came from an Eternal Being in the first place and I believe that we came from God and will return to Him, in regards to the other things eternity is placed in my heart for a purpose.
If I understand you right you are saying that only truth is what you can see demonstrated to be true? This seems very limited and can be deceiving, don't you think? I know that if I go by appearance only I would be easily deceived.
Where as Jesus demonstrated His love toward us that while were still sinners He died for us not willing that any should perish but inherit eternal life. :-)
"Yes, I agree eternal things don't begin to exist..."
If so, why is the sentence much longer than just this fragment?
"...unless they came from an Eternal Being in the first place..."
I came from a 32 year-old woman, when I was born I was neither 32 years-old or a woman. Even if you had come from an eternal being, and not your parents, that would not logically make you eternal.
"I believe that we came from God and will return to Him, in regards to the other things eternity is placed in my heart for a purpose."
Um, good for you? I am not sure if you meant this as an argument or a statement of belief, but I am going to take it as the latter, because it makes for a terrible argument...
"If I understand you right you are saying that only truth is what you can see demonstrated to be true?"
Yep, truth is a value WE(sentient beings, collectively) assign to claims or statements based on their concordance or accuracy with and in reality. In a situation where no claim or statement has been made or could be made, there is nothing to assess as true or false.
"This seems very limited and can be deceiving, don't you think?"
Only if you confuse truth with reality, but they are not identical, so it isn't actually deceptive at all. Though I am curious as to how you believe truth can be deceptive.
"I know that if I go by appearance only I would be easily deceived."
That is why we actually try very hard to demonstrate if something is true before labeling it "truth". If you mislabel claims as truth too many times, people stop taking you seriously.
"Where as Jesus demonstrated His love toward us that while were still sinners He died for us not willing that any should perish but inherit eternal life. :-)"
I don't really believe in your book, nor do I believe I have done anything particularly deserving of everlasting torment, so I don't really buy what you are selling. Besides, even if this supposed human sacrifice did occur, I would prefer to have absolutely nothing to do with it whatsoever. I am picky like that, I don't want or like the idea of people being killed in my name, it disgusts me.
Travis, regarding your statement:
I came from a 32 year-old woman, when I was born I was neither 32 years-old or a woman. Even if you had come from an eternal being, and not your parents, that would not logically make you eternal.
Your mother also came from God. We all came from God so this makes all of us children of God, the problem is sin corrupted us and corruption cannot be in heaven or it would become like this messed up world we live in now, the sin in us gave us a new father unless we have been forgiven he is our father. Everyone will spend eternity with the father they chose while living here. Those who choose God will live eternally and those who don't will die eternally.
and regards to this question: Though I am curious as to how you believe truth can be deceptive.
Pure Truth cannot be deceptive, the problem comes when there are lies mixed into it and those lies are deadly so mostly truth is really no truth at all and this is satan's native language.
Travis, being saved is a miracle. My goal is not to argue with you because you have the right to choose your own path as much as I do. I have told you the truth and this is what Jesus said to do, I will pray for you and let Him do the rest. I hope you enjoy the rest of your day.
And therein lies the real tragedy of faith: you are never free. Not even when you're dead.
Ronda - "Pure Truth cannot be..."
When someone starts to attach qualifiers/weasel words to the word 'truth', don't walk away; run!
"Your mother also came from God. We all came from God so this makes all of us children of God, the problem is sin corrupted us and corruption cannot be in heaven or it would become like this messed up world we live in now, the sin in us gave us a new father unless we have been forgiven he is our father. Everyone will spend eternity with the father they chose while living here. Those who choose God will live eternally and those who don't will die eternally."
You seem to have missed the entire point of my answer, which was:
If you come from X, that doesn't make you X. If you come from something omnipotent, does that make you omnipotent? No? Then coming from something eternal, does not logically make YOU eternal. I was talking about logical consistency, not your particular theology, as theology lacks a great deal of logical consistency.
"Pure Truth cannot be deceptive, the problem comes when there are lies mixed into it and those lies are deadly so mostly truth is really no truth at all and this is satan's native language."
Here is the problem, you are treating truth as it is something external and objective, when it is always internal and subjective. If you saw two birds, it really doesn't matter how many might have actually been there, the truth remains that you only saw two.
"Travis, being saved is a miracle. My goal is not to argue with you because you have the right to choose your own path as much as I do. I have told you the truth and this is what Jesus said to do, I will pray for you and let Him do the rest."
Do as you wish, I am not overly concerned with supernatural entities enchanting or cursing me, as I am not much of a believer in magic.
"I hope you enjoy the rest of your day."
I will.
"...If you saw two birds, it really doesn't matter how many might have actually been there, the truth remains that you only saw two."
Yes, and this is why I trust what God's Word says as The Truth, He knows what I missed or anyone else, I don't have to go by anything anyone else said or what I think I saw, I rely on what God says and I know the Truth, He is my Standard. :)
"Yes, and this is why I trust what God's Word says as The Truth..."
Except, that in the context of the analogy, the fact that you only saw two would remain the truth regardless of how many were objectively there. The truth is contextual, it is tied to experience and comprehension, so all truth is dependent on the people making the statements. If you state that god exists, you are telling the truth, because you believe he exists. If I stated the same, however, I would be lying because I DON'T believe he exists. See how it works yet?
"He knows what I missed or anyone else..."
Which affects the truth value of the claims we make not at all, because knowledge inaccessible to use cannot be used to assess the truth of a claim.
"I don't have to go by anything anyone else said or what I think I saw, I rely on what God says and I know the Truth, He is my Standard. :)"
Your standard is inaccessible and experientially useless? That...actually...explains a lot.
You could get a lobotomy.
I only used to the term "Christian" because it is the most prevalent religion where I live. All religions are held to their religious claims and how people can be enveloped around the religion to the point of religion.
Hi Johnathan, I wanted to let you know that I am a Christian but being a Christian in this world is not as blissful as you may think as a matter of fact if Jesus did not die for our sins I would be the most pitiful. You see we all know that death here is evident and everyone has a specific lifetime here, this is our beginning but it will not be our end. We make choices in this lifetime that will determine our eternity. There are two kingdoms, two sides and two fates and one is eternal and one isn't. I do have peace knowing that nothing can happen to me that God doesn't allow and He will give me the strength I need for each day. I do believe every promise God says. I do believe we are the last generation because of the nation of Israel which was prophesied in God's Word, Jesus said when this happens this generation will not pass away before His return. Jesus came the first time, He will come the second time. I know His Word is pure Truth and every truth on this planet came from His Word but the enemy wants to mix it up with lies and he has done a good job but God is not mocked and whatever we choose to do we will be held accountable for it in the end. Another thing knowing God personally is not religion, I can't do religion I already tried and it doesn't work. Jesus said, "Come unto Me all you who are weary and burdened and I will give you rest." I left my religion burden on His shoulders and I am free. :-)
Ronda - "Jesus said when this happens this generation will not pass away before His return"
Actually---according to the new testament---Jesus said: "I tell all of you with certainty, some people standing here will not experience death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."
That 'prediction' failed a long, long, time ago...
-------------------------------------------
Ronda - "Jesus came the first time, He will come the second time"
According to the story, Jesus came once when he was born, and came back after he conquered death, so aren't you really waiting for the 3rd coming?
That was so smooth, I got goosebumps.
Nyar, thank you for giving me something to respond to-- Yes "Jesus said: "I tell all of you with certainty, some people standing here will not experience death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom." Many did see Him go into His kingdom after His resurrection. Acts 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
I do believe in the rapture of the church (those who have been forgiven by grace and know Jesus personally will be taken) and then we will return with Him in the second coming. The only thing I can boast about is that I know Him and I KNOW He loves people! He loves you and wants you to go also.
You could sit with the knowledge. Sit with the fear, and the knowing - it's all part and parcel. Simply be with it, beside it. A person can feel dread, and still find a way to continue. People can, and people have. You could.
Welcome to - what I consider to be - a core component of existentialism. And it is invigorating.
There is nothing like the nearness of the void to inspire a passion for living.
There have been times that I, as well wished for the ignorance of religion. For me, mostly it relates to grief. It would make life so much easier to know that even though a friend/family member died, I would get to see them again eventually. Unfortunately the realist/atheist that I am cannot make the jump to that magical thinking, so I am stuck with knowing that dead and gone is dead and gone. On the up side, I value my relationships much more, as I know that when one of us kicks off, it's over, so I make the most of each day with those around me. It is actually a much more fulfilling way to live. Religious folks should try it.
Hey Johnathan! Haha, as a Christian full of religious, dogmatic sh**, let me invite you to join me in ignorant bliss!
Think about this: you can live in the real, true world of logic and science as you do. But... it's so cold and unfriendly, isn't it? Knowing that ultimately, whatever you do mean nothing. The universe is gonna die a slow, cold death whether you are Hitler or Mother Theresa. In the big picture... we all matter nil.
Or, you can believe in fairy tales! There is a God that loves you and wants you to spend eternity with Him. What you do matters in this dream world :) You can love others and do what's right because there are eternal consequences to your actions.
We only have one life. Does it matter if we spend it well-informed and logical (as you are doing), or delusional and filled with religious sh** (as I am)? Think about it, I'm gonna enjoy my one and only life so much more than you! I have hope for the future and I know I am loved and valuable.
So think about joining the dark side :) Ignorant bliss is more enjoyable. You only have one meaningless life to live, what does it matter if you are delusional or logical? Choose the one that gives you the most pleasure! If it's the cold truth of atheism, go for it. If it's the crazy nuttiness of Christianity, choose that one :)
You have convinced me Ilovequestions. I'm going to just believe in the Christian fairy tale so I can feel better because I will then think I get to go to heaven.
Oh wait, I got a better idea! I got an idea for a new religion, Nyarlathotepism. In this religion when you die you get to go to Double-Heaven™, so I think I better pick that one because clearly it will make me "enjoy my one and only life so much more than you!", since you only have the promise of single heaven.
But I got a feeling, Travis is going to suggest Travisism: which naturally comes with the promise of Triple-Heaven™. So maybe we should pick that one!
But wait, act now we'll throw in an extra heaven for free with CyberLNism: giving you Quadruple-Heaven™! Four heavens for the price of one!. Now you are absolutely guaranteed to "enjoy [your] one and only life so much more than [your friends]". Operators are standing by....
One of my heavens has an all-you-can eat ice cream parlor. You can also get unlimited toppings in it, including, but not limited to, BACON!
Icosaheaven!
Go for it!
You now have an evolutionary advantage due to your new religious faith :) Religious adherents have more children (look at the Catholics and Muslims) and they live longer than atheists.
I think everyone embracing religion is the next step in our evolutionary development as a species. Faith in god prolongs life and increases procreation. Evolution at its finest!
I'm glad I'm converting atheists ;) I've just increased your lifespan and improved your sex life. Oh yeah
I think we can leave my sex life out of this, and I would prefer not to be religious, as I like being married and don't want a divorce.
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