Who does this planet belong to?

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The antichrist's picture
Who does this planet belong to?

Who does this planet belong to; rational human beings or zealous religious bigots?
The Saudi Arabian government condemned Raif Badawi to 10 years in prison accompanied with 1000 lashes, to be given in public, when charged with 'blasphemy' when insulting Islam and bringing into disrepute.
I'm sorry that Islam feels insulted, but not half as much as the world should be insulted by Islam. And to think that this is the sought of medieval justice (Sharia Law) they want to foist on the rest of the world.
Can anyone defend this abhorrent archaic ruling derived from the Sunnah's of Mohammed? And they say that Islam is a religion of peace.

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ThePragmatic's picture
Islamic law is such a

Islamic law is such a wonderful idea, you can tell it really is the religion of peace.

As I understand it, all Raif Badawi did was encourage debate on religious and political matters and promote secularism.
Since they postponed the next round of 50 lashes, why not have some entertainment while people wait, and behead a a woman promoting human rights? http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/saudi-arabia-publicl...

And his lawyer got 15 years in prison himself, for setting up "Monitor of Human Rights", an unlicensed organization.

Sounds reasonable and appropriate.

What I don't get, is why the ordinary muslim doesn't get so angry and outraged that they do something about this insanity. Don't they care that their religion is used to justify this kind of insane opression?

Valiya's picture
Pragmatic...

Pragmatic...

there we meet again!!!

There are three things to it...firstly, what exactly did Raif Badawi say? Secondly, if what you say is true about him, then is the punishment given him justified? Thirdly, what constitutes as Islam... is what regimes with islamic names do, or is it what anybody with a Muslim name does, or is it what the islamic sources teach?

Lastly, how do you want do you want ordinary muslims to express anger... bomb and kill? and if we don't do that, nothing gets reported on the international media... there are tons of literature being written against it...but that's not big enough to draw the attention of the media...so, then how do you expect the ordinary muslims to vent their feelings?

Just throwing some basic thoughts...I have not presented any argument yet... just setting the stage for thoughts...meanwhile, let me get some info on this guy badawi.

ThePragmatic's picture
Yes, please do get some

Yes, please do get some information on the subject first. And do read about the woman who they beheaded publicly with a sword. It apparently took four chops to detach the head and they refrained from giving her a sedative.

No one here, apart from yourself, has suggested anything like "bomb or kill".

Valiya's picture
i read about the woman...the

i read about the woman...the sentence was for sexually abusing and killing her 7-year old step son... if that's the case...the punishment is warranted by Islam...what do you think should be the punishment for such a crime?

Valiya's picture
the reason i invoked "bomb

the reason i invoked "bomb and kill" is to show you that ordinary muslims (and many scholars) have indeed condemned and also going on a worldwide campaign creating awareness on how terrorism and such things are contrary to the teachings of Islam...but we don't get to hear about that in the mainstream media....for anything to come in the media, there should be something cataclysmic like large number of deaths and so on...that's why i invoked bombs...sarcastically of course

ThePragmatic's picture
Yes, you are right about the

Yes, you are right about the crimes she was convicted of. I think it was another article I read, that claimed that she was a human rights activist. The truth is hard to know. And apparently it took only three chops to detach her head.

In either case, it is not appropriate to publicly drag someone through the street and chop the head of with a sword! This is not the 14th century. It's like a bad Monthy Python sketch.

Valiya's picture
Pragmatic

Pragmatic

with this we would be actually going back to a previous topic, in which TRAVIS and i were debating over questions of morality. What should be the punishment for a murderer? IS death penalty valid these days? If yes, how should it be executed, and all those things are huge topics... if interested, let's start discussing that?

I find you an interesting guy to debate with...and like how you find me reasonable among theists... i share the same opinion about you among atheists.

so if you are game, why not we discuss how we can arrive at moral conclusions in life.

ThePragmatic's picture
I have to decline :)

I have to decline :)
Morality isn't my primary interest to debate (at least not right now).

Valiya's picture
no probs...whenever you are

no probs...whenever you are interested

RobertDouglas's picture
“Yes, you are right about the

“Yes, you are right about the crimes she was convicted of”

I completely agree that the guilt or innocence of the woman whom was beheaded does not sanctify such a barbaric act, we should not just assume that a woman can get a fair trial in Saudi Arabia.

http://www.dw.de/women-in-saudi-arabia-are-caught-in-a-system-of-gender-...

Travis Hedglin's picture
"i read about the woman...the

"i read about the woman...the sentence was for sexually abusing and killing her 7-year old step son... if that's the case...the punishment is warranted by Islam...what do you think should be the punishment for such a crime?"

As you well know, I don't really have much attachment to religious law, so the origin of this punishment is irrelevant to me. I am not about to decry this as many will, however, because I detest pedophiles with a hatred bordering on the homicidal. I do, however, believe that the sexual assault and murder of a 7 year-old child would constitute a capital offense if such a thing is to have any meaning. The death penalty exists, whether everyone agrees with it or not, and such a case is a shining example of when it should be applied if ever.

Honestly, it is a good thing it wasn't left up to me, or far worse would have probably happened to her.

ThePragmatic's picture
I agree with you on the

I agree with you on the punishment for such a crime, even that she might have gotten away too easy. What I am appalled by is the method.

A public execution in front of a mosque, with people cheering.
Policeman dragged her through the street, while she was screaming "I did not kill, I did not kill". They held her down and chopped of the head with a sword, with 3 swings.

If they used a guillotine behind closed doors and she actually had a fair trial, I wouldn't have said anything against it.

Jeff Vella Leone's picture
You are right, even if she

You are right, even if she did commit the crime, one has to understand that there is some level of decency and proper investigation in the matter first before chopping off heads.

That being said, i disagree that there should be capital punishment at all, if she is guilty she should suffer far more then death.

If on the other hand she did not even have a trial(which I think it is the case here) then it proves how religious people are ready to kill others for the first excuse that comes their way.

This is not a religion of peace but of tension, anger and war.

It does not leave the people with an unbiased and clear mind, but with hate.

"A public execution in front of a mosque, with people cheering."
Yep it shows exactly this.

Killing an other human being should bring sadness, regardless of the crime.

Valiya's picture
PRAGMATIC

PRAGMATIC

In Islam, a punishment has 3 fundamental purposes... 1. making the guilty pay for the pain he/she inflicted on an innocent person. 2. Send a warning to others in the community what would happen if anyone dared to commit a similar crime again. 3 Give solace to the victim and their family that justice has been served.

Therefore, executions have to be public.

Then about the way she was dragged...obviously, a person going to be executed is not going to cooperate, and so some amount of force has to be applied...and about the three chops... yes, I agree that there should be some method to ensure execution is carried out in an equitable manner...as in not one chop for some criminals and three chops for others...however, i think the first chop did her in, because she was not writhing in pain after that...it was just a matter of separating the head, from thereon.

Jeff Vella Leone's picture
If I could bring myself to

If I could bring myself to swear about your religion I would.

How could you be so cynical towards an other human being?

"it was just a matter of separating the head, from thereon."
And you dare claim that your religion is a religion of peace.

I am glad I do not know you.

cmallen's picture
LIKE.

LIKE.

Valiya's picture
You are quoting me out of

You are quoting me out of context... i had registered by reservation for the method employed for the decapitation...what i was saying was that the first blow had already killed her... (so that much less painful)...

Jeff Vella Leone's picture
Dam an other out of context

Dam an other out of context LIE or excuse.

First you describe the murder of an other human being.

Which in the eyes of decent people is a horrible concept. The punishment of death has nothing to do with forgiveness or rehab.

Then you go forward in assuming she is dead on first strike, even if she was that action is immoral.

Then you go full blown with a description of the desecration of a human body and displaying her head with a crowd cheering.

If this is the kind of peace your religion brings, it is no different then what the NAZI or an Fascist empire did in their time.

But what horrifies me even worse is the way you talk about it.

As if it is ok to do such a thing, and there is nothing wrong with it.

This is the kind of evil your religion does.

“With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.”

--Steven Weinberg

Valiya's picture
I think some your own own

I think some your own own (atheists) in this thread would differ with you on this. Some said the punishment is justified considering the cruelty of the crime. When the so called 'rationally' thinking people themselves differ with you on the idea of capital punishment being immoral... i think you have some wrinkles to iron out there before you turn to me

Jeff Vella Leone's picture
Some people are wrong but you

Some people are wrong but you are by far worse.

We have disagreements yes, and we discuss those, but you have something which is even worse, you do not reason normally.

If your religion teaches forgiveness, why don't you practice it?

This is the problem with you and most religious people, hypocrisy is your true religion.

Valiya's picture
please learn to appreciate

please learn to appreciate the difference between a moral precept and law.

do you want to make forgiveness the law of a state? that would mean that no criminal can ever be punished for anything...because according to law, he will have to be forgiven.

Islam does say that forgiveness is a virtue...but it does not make it a law. so if a person wants to take a criminal to court and get him punished, there is provision for it...if you want you can forgive...instances of forgiveness don't get reported like this in the media, unfortunately

Jeff Vella Leone's picture
So if the law says that Islam

So if the law says that Islam should not be practiced, then you follow the law not your religion?

I did not says that forgiveness means no punishment(your straw-man), but cheering over killing someone is not any sign of forgiveness either.
It is an extreme, REASON teaches you to not to go to extremes.(you seem to have none of that)
Islam teaches you that it is OK to go to extremes unless your religion says otherwise.(hypocrisy)

Perfect example of it:
"Islam does say that forgiveness is a virtue...but it does not make it a law."(perfect Hypocrisy)

When there is no Reason, such stupid hypocritical statements arise.

Jeff Vella Leone's picture
That is one of the reason why

That is one of the reason why Islam is not a religion of peace:

"Islam does say that 'peace' is a virtue...but it does not make it a law."(perfect Hypocrisy)

Valiya's picture
You don’t even know the

You don’t even know the difference between precept and law.

Giving charity is good. That’s a moral teaching. But imagine what will happen if it becomes law. A person asks for charity and I don’t give, I will have to go to jail. Because not giving charity would be breaking the law.

Would you like it if your country makes forgiving a law…after all forgiving is indeed a good thing…so that by law everyone has to forgive any infringement against them and not take any action against the criminal. What a fair and just place that would be!!!

And about cheering… when such punishments are meted out, people invoke god’s name. That’s a custom. To the unwonted, it might sound like cheering. It’s not cheering.

Do you see from whose side the stupid statements are rising?

Jeff Vella Leone's picture
"Would you like it if your

"Would you like it if your country makes forgiving a law…after all forgiving is indeed a good thing…so that by law everyone has to forgive any infringement against them and not take any action against the criminal. What a fair and just place that would be!!"

"It is an extreme, REASON teaches you to not to go to extremes.(you seem to have none of that)
Islam teaches you that it is OK to go to extremes unless your religion says otherwise.(hypocrisy)"

You have constantly proven to everyone here, that you drown in hypocrisy and are dishonest in your replies.

My conclusion about you, was correct, that since you have no capacity of a mature debate, it is useless to try to Reason with you.

Valiya's picture
"You have constantly proven

"You have constantly proven to everyone here, that you drown in hypocrisy and are dishonest in your replies"

Well at least not everyone!!! Because at Cmallen seems to agree with me on this count. I really hope that at least this will open your eyes to the fact that there are atheists in this site who disagree with your bigoted views against me. It might serve us all better if you renounce personal attacks and just stick to logic.

maryam's picture
My conclusion about Jeff is

My conclusion about Jeff is if we don't agree to his points he blame people either dishonest or hypocrite.

You are not here to judge anyone....If you don't wanna debate then keep quite instead of pointing others...Here in the forum people are replying Valiya because he have capacity to reason it...

cmallen's picture
This is probably the most

This is probably the most well-stated post I have seen you make, Valiya. You offered good examples and drew a reasonable conclusion from them. I like that you didn't even try to defend capital punishment, while still pragmatically recognizing it as law.

I actually agree completely with your posit that something should not be law merely because it's good (like charity or forgiveness).

I would continue your own argument to show that extreme punishments just as extreme laws are probably not a great idea. As extreme as it is to say that charity should be the law, death penalty is no less extreme as a punishment and is also prejudicial to individual dignity and freedom.

Anyway, well done. Please keep bringing arguments of this quality and not so much of the jumping around and/or backpedaling you usually do.

Valiya's picture
Cmallen

Cmallen

I appreciate your candid take on things, untainted by blind prejudice.

I don’t reject the premise of ‘forgiveness being made law’ based on its extremity. I reject it because it is simply unpractical. A society can’t function if such moral teachings are made law.

Whereas, punishing a criminal (murderer , rapist etc) is part of any penal code in the world. The question is how harsh should that punishment be? This is something that there is a lot of difference of opinion among jurists and legal experts around the world. Why even in this very thread, TRAVIS sort of said that if left to him a person who abuse and murders a child would be dealt with more harshly than that.

If you want, Cmallen, we can start a separate debate on this issue… we would have to explore our premises from which we formulate laws.

Valiya's picture
PRAGMATIC

PRAGMATIC

In Islam, a punishment has 3 fundamental purposes... 1. making the guilty pay for the pain he/she inflicted on an innocent person. 2. Send a warning to others in the community what would happen if anyone dared to commit a similar crime again. 3 Give solace to the victim and their family that justice has been served.

Therefore, executions have to be public.

Then about the way she was dragged...obviously, a person going to be executed is not going to cooperate, and so some amount of force has to be applied...and about the three chops... yes, I agree that there should be some method to ensure execution is carried out in an equitable manner...as in not one chop for some criminals and three chops for others...however, i think the first chop did her in, because she was not writhing in pain after that...it was just a matter of separating the head, from thereon.

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