Why can’t we prove there isn’t a god?

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Cognostic's picture
Atheists Actually Believe in

Atheists Actually Believe in God According to the Lie Detector...
https://www.patheos.com/blogs/secularoutpost/2006/02/04/could-an-atheist...

LogicFTW's picture
@KafeiI am going to respond

@Kafei
I am going to respond the points of interest to me, if I skip over something you want me to discuss let me know and I can include a response to it on my next reply.


Well, yes, the mystic's understanding is more of a Source, or a Force, if you want, but also synonymous with what I've explained is also referred to as an Absolute in philosophy,

I have experienced feelings of connection beyond the normal everyday, not just with people but everything. Both with and w/o drugs. I also have had the difficult to describe out of body "silence" where the mind quiets and I only realize I experienced it afterwards, during there is no "thought." I have with philosophical wanderings arrived at conclusions of how we are all similar, we are all recycled atoms, and in small enough parts we share the same air, atoms, as everyone alive and has lived. The falling away of normal everyday concerns, definitely the periphery of what you have discussed here.

Perhaps it is my highly critical mind, but while I enjoyed and learned from these experiences, there was nothing there that made me feel any sense of divine, or some ultimate source. I did feel very connected to everything (all of the earth) and how little difference there was, and how I was a tiny unique part of the whole. But nothing that I feel would lead to a grand source, nothing where I felt a need to completely reorganized my thinking of my reality.

-- whoops ran out of time will continue later.

 
 

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Cognostic's picture
@re: I have experienced

@re: I have experienced feelings of connection beyond the normal everyday.

If you experience them, aren't they "normal, everyday?" They may be rare or infrequent but isn't that largely a product of the fact that you do not spend time seeking them out?

My supposition is fairly similar but I think about it often. I am amazed by the fact that I am a part of and product of the universe. The atoms of my makeup came from the stars. I am a process moving through the universe and not a thing. Like a flowing river or a burning candle, always on the move, always changing. And when I die, the process just continues on in a different way. (I like the ole Zen analogy, "You can not put your foot in the same river twice.") This is a normal everyday experience. If not.... why not?

Sheldon's picture
Well 4 pages in, at this

Well 4 pages in, at this point I like to ask, did Jo demonstrate any objective evidence for any deity, or was it all just unevidenced anecdotal and hypothetical as usual?

I was tempted to make that rhetorical. Aren't we due a new batch of apologists by now, these guys must be dizzy from so many circular arguments?

Cognostic's picture
@sheldon: Jo can't do that.

@sheldon: Jo can't do that. You are asking him to demonstrate that he is wrong. As long as he holds onto amorphous woo woo and inane assertions he can protect his ego. One begins to wonder how much longer Jo will keep this up. My guess is that he actually thinks he is being logical and making philosophical inquiries. He reads the objections to his magical crap but just has no ability to understand.

Tin-Man's picture
...*clearing throat*....Ahem.

...*clearing throat*....Ahem... Uh, guys and gals, I'm afraid we have all been severely duped. I have already made this announcement in another thread, but it seems equally appropriate in this thread too. It would appear that there really IS a god amongst us. I happened to stumble upon undeniable proof of it earlier today. Please see attached pic...

Attachments

Attach Image/Video?: 

Yes
Tin-Man's picture
HEY! Who's the dirty rotten

HEY! Who's the dirty rotten so-n-so who gave me a "Disagree"???... *indignant shock*.... This is SERIOUS stuff here, people! Sticking your heads in the sand will not make this reality go away! Repent while you still have a chance! With clear and indisputable PROOF such as what I found today, it must be some sort of sign! The "End" must be much closer than we expected!

Cognostic's picture
@Sheldon: Come on Sheldon,

@Sheldon: Come on Sheldon, You have to ask serious questions, Not those amorphous, woo woo, leading, fallacious strips of verbiage. Everyone knows objective evidence is a very subjective term. Didn't you read Breezy's post?

Just because the question you asked can not be answered does not mean it can't be answered. If your mind was more open you would understand that. Rat Spit gets it so why can't you?

Isn't it always time for the next brave apologist to puff up, enter the forum, assert his or her nonsense and then run away?

Alchemy's picture
Well first off Id like to say

Well first off Id like to say, that as a bit of a home scientist myself, I'm disappointed in the methods and limitations that most of today's time scientist practise.

This ^^ is in relation to the, why can't "We prove" part of your title. In other words what most people belive as proven facts is nothing more than stating the obvious. And "they" haven't in reality came up with anything I'm seeing as "WOW what a discovery!" The testing is usually half good half faulty in the same test.

So on those grounds I have little to no faith in scientist who belong to the system.

With the last part of the Title, thats simple there Is a God the word God is actually a False title and its best to Just call Him The Most High.

And there's no reason for any human to see this as far fetched in the least, for example many ppl find it hard to believe That There is Kingdom in The Sky, Heaven aka The Kingdom of the Most High God/Elohim.
Never really getting out of the "caveman" view of life and having FULL realization that we indeed alredy dwell in a kingdom in the sky. And We are alredy working on Highly supernatural level ourselves just bc we are used to it dosent means its not 100% supernatural, things like music, cooking, language, building, reading, writing, the list goes on and on.
All those things according to the very simple science of observation, proves that they are supernatural and otherworldly compared to the earth.
On evolution, I thought that was disproved along time ago with DNA and RH negative blood types.

Not to mention as a man all you have to do is take a look at your penis,...lol. that in it's self is like no other on earth.

Also for any ppl who like the E.T idea, if you belive in them by science you belive in The Most High and angels. Bc under scientific terms not only do they fully meet the terms of that category, they are the same. Of.course media has curved ppls view point of what these words actually mean.

That's all I got to say for now everyone, Hopefully not too many typos haha.
Alchemy.

Edit: another thing most people look right over in life, is nostrils... I've thought about it, there is no other species to my knowledge with nostrils that face the ground. Just a interesting original thought.

Algebe's picture
@Alchemy: there is no other

@Alchemy: there is no other species to my knowledge with nostrils that face the ground

The kiwi does. It has nostrils right at the end of its beak, which it uses to sniff out worms and bugs in the soil. It has also whiskers like a cat, and extremely acute hearing, but unusually for a nocturnal bird its eyesight is poor. It relies on smell, sound, and vibrations to hunt and navigate. It's amazing that it was able to find its way home after leaving Noah's Ark.

David Killens's picture
@Alchemy

@Alchemy

"With the last part of the Title, thats simple there Is a God the word God is actually a False title and its best to Just call Him The Most High."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HuYeQi4wB_k

Alchemy's picture
"imagine humans without

"imagine humans without widespread language"

Thats right - there would be no religion."

Language is truly 100% AMAZING bro.

But I do have to disagree with there would be no religion, it wld be more accurate to say there would be no science even tho I think it wld still exist as well.

And I'll tell ya why, Bc what's so amazing about language is all them spurts of sounds to create what we all know as sentences, stem from one super fast inner feeling. Start noticing and paying attention to before the thought becomes a word then try to notice where the thought came from, and even it to is in "word language"
At the end you will find the large thoughts and words all came from one lil fast feeling you had before it became a thought. Pretty amazing truly.

Most people honestly won't believe this quick story out of my memory, but my whole life Ive had this memory of a kid who my grandmother used to babysit, I was at their house as well. This lil boy and me was "talking" fully, he was trying to convince me to eat a booger, lol no games. And I remember him even telling me "its good" and try it" type deal.

Not until a few years back did I actually realized how young we was, true baby's like I wanna guess 2 years old.

And then I realized we cldnt have been speaking language as we know it today. Yet my brain remember this conversation in the English language. Which it cldnt have been. So that must be the only way for the brain to process that original language that every human has in common. IMO and IME lol. That is a hard one.to believe tho, but I won't lie unless it's the cops. Haha. Jk.

Cognostic's picture
@Alchemy: HUH? Anyone

@Alchemy: HUH? Anyone able to translate that stuff into English and quickly paraphrase it?

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ Cog

@ Cog

As we was babes then nopes ws cants translates ol buddy...he y woops...

All greek to me,

xenoview's picture
No theist has provided

No theist has provided objective evidence that any god or gods are real. If you have evidence present it.

Kafei's picture
Likewise, no atheist has

Likewise, no atheist has provided any justification or evidence that demonstrates that there is, in fact, no such thing as God. However, if you've been paying attention to thread, I offered some science that's been done that you might find quite interesting.

Tin-Man's picture
@Kafei Re: "Likewise, no

@Kafei Re: "Likewise, no atheist has provided any justification or evidence that demonstrates that there is, in fact, no such thing as God. "

And you, sir, have not yet provided any justification or evidence that there is, in fact, no such thing as a Ginormous Invisible Blue Universe Creating Bunny. Hah!... *sticking out tongue*... *thumbs in ears while wiggling fingers upward*...

Kafei's picture
-_-

-_-

Cognostic's picture
@Kafei Re: "Likewise, no

@Kafei Re: "Likewise, no atheist has provided any justification or evidence that demonstrates that there is, in fact, no such thing as God. "

Completely Wrong. "I did that."

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ Kafei

@ Kafei

I offered some science that's been done that you might find quite interesting.

No you have not. You have provided links to YouTube videos. You have failed to explain your definition of "Mystical" (which already has a perfectly acceptable OED definition) When pressed, you use more undefinable terms to define your favoured phrases.

All you have brought to the table is that if your take drugs in sufficient (heroic aka OVERDOSE) you can replicate the same experiences (for which there is a well established science) that can sometimes be produced through meditation and exercise. That is ALL your studies have evidence for.

So whoopedy doo. This faux intellectualism is really beginning to grate.

If you want to chant "woo" every 30 seconds go play trains.

Kafei's picture
@Old man shoutsNo you have

@Old man shouts

No you have not. You have provided links to YouTube videos. You have failed to explain your definition of "Mystical" (which already has a perfectly acceptable OED definition) When pressed, you use more undefinable terms to define your favoured phrases.

That's completely untrue. I've left plenty of material for anyone to satisfy themselves as to how this term is being defined. It's been defined by multiple professionals involved in this research.

CSP Founder Robert Jesse on the "Complete" Mystical experience

Dr. Roland Griffiths on "Complete" mystical experience

Dr. Alex Belsar - "Complete" Mystical Experience

All you have brought to the table is that if your take drugs in sufficient (heroic aka OVERDOSE) you can replicate the same experiences (for which there is a well established science) that can sometimes be produced through meditation and exercise. That is ALL your studies have evidence for.

Yes, and the implications is that this phenomenon has been occurring throughout the ages, that mysticism can be found practiced in all of the major religions. Also, a heroic dose is not the same as an overdose.

So whoopedy doo. This faux intellectualism is really beginning to grate.

There's nothing faux about this scientific research. Mystical states of consciousness are well established in the scientific literature at this point.

If you want to chant "woo" every 30 seconds go play trains.

I maintain that this has absolutely nothing to do with "woo."

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ Kafei

@ Kafei

All you have brought to the table is that if your take drugs in sufficient (heroic aka OVERDOSE) you can replicate the same experiences (for which there is a well established science) that can sometimes be produced through meditation and exercise. That is ALL your studies have evidence for.

Yes, and the implications is that this phenomenon has been occurring throughout the ages, that mysticism can be found practiced in all of the major religions

What part of my answer aren't you getting? So fucking what that Shamans through the ages have tripped away? It proves fuck all. these trips are fuck all to do with "evidence for a god or gods". It is all to do with known chemical reactions in the brain by those who practise deep meditation or take OVERDOSES of certain hallucinogenics.

The "definitions" of a "Complete Mystical Experience" are nothing but descriptions of the reactions experienced. There is no "definition" except when your first link uses complete woo terms to describe it. Fucks sake.

"Mystical" Has a fucking definition. Clear, concise and in the OED. It really doesn't need to be woo'd into another fucking dimension or stretched to fit your fantasy land.

Also, a heroic dose is not the same as an overdose.

heroic dose: drugs
A very large quantity of hallucinogenic substance, that, when ingested, results in a powerful and often life-changing trip.

In anyone's language an OVERDOSE (more than 5 grams) of the drug results in certain chemical reactions in the brain.
For fucks sake, that is what I called it.
It may sound nice to you and the rest of the happy trippers to call it a fucking "hero's dose" but it isn't it is just an OVERDOSE. It often results in life changing trips, oft times to hospital..
Again that is not evidence for a god or gods. That is evidence you have been tripping.

Take less than 3 grams and you often just have a really enhanced reality time. Or really vivid dreams. That is an ordinary dose.

If you did some brain training you can duplicate the effects with some effort.

Please just stop with the woo. We know what the studies say, and it is bollock all to do with any god or gods or talking fucking coyote.
Its about drugs and overdosing.

Kafei's picture
@Old man shoutsWhat part of

@Old man shouts

What part of my answer aren't you getting? So fucking what that Shamans through the ages have tripped away? It proves fuck all. these trips are fuck all to do with "evidence for a god or gods". It is all to do with known chemical reactions in the brain by those who practise deep meditation or take OVERDOSES of certain hallucinogenics.

Once again, they're not overdosing their volunteers. A "heroic dose" is far away from what would be considered a toxic or "overdose."

The "definitions" of a "Complete Mystical Experience" are nothing but descriptions of the reactions experienced. There is no "definition" except when your first link uses complete woo terms to describe it. Fucks sake.

They are characteristics that have been established about this phenomenon in consciousness since the work of William James.

"Mystical" Has a fucking definition. Clear, concise and in the OED. It really doesn't need to be woo'd into another fucking dimension or stretched to fit your fantasy land.

The researchers aren't referring to the OED's definition of the word "mystical," they're referring to the definition of William James' term "mystical experience."

Also, a heroic dose is not the same as an overdose.

heroic dose: drugs
A very large quantity of hallucinogenic substance, that, when ingested, results in a powerful and often life-changing trip.

In anyone's language an OVERDOSE (more than 5 grams) of the drug results in certain chemical reactions in the brain.
For fucks sake, that is what I called it.
It may sound nice to you and the rest of the happy trippers to call it a fucking "hero's dose" but it isn't it is just an OVERDOSE. It often results in life changing trips, oft times to hospital..
Again that is not evidence for a god or gods. That is evidence you have been tripping.

The professionals consider these mystical states of consciousness evidence for the Perennial philosophy, and I maintain that God is most properly understood in this context. And again, we're simply not discussing an "overdose," but a dose sufficient enough that the full-spectrum of effects occur or what Jordan Peterson calls the "trip" which is basically synonymous to how they're defining the so-called "complete" mystical experience.

Take less than 3 grams and you often just have a really enhanced reality time. Or really vivid dreams. That is an ordinary dose.

That's a recreational dose. That's definitely not what they're using in this research. They're not using an "overdose" either. They're using the dose that elicits the full-spectrum of effects.

If you did some brain training you can duplicate the effects with some effort.

Yes, that's what meditation is or asceticism. It was also recently confirmed in The University of Michigan that the DMT levels spike in the brain of the rodent during cardiac arrest. So, this confirms the speculation these professionals have had that DMT is involved in the near-death experience of the mammalian brain.

Please just stop with the woo. We know what the studies say, and it is bollock all to do with any god or gods or talking fucking coyote.
Its about drugs and overdosing.

No, you don't know what the studies say apparently if you're looking to the OED to define this term when it's more accurately a definition originally elaborated by William James. You're not going to find it in the OED. Perhaps you should actually look into the research instead of sources outside of it to attempt to grasp it.

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ Kafei

@ Kafei

Your refusal to enter the real world and merely parrot the Videos you have obviously watched for yhoursd suggests to me that you have substituted your bible mania for this research.

For your information anything exceeding the recommended dose is an OVER DOSE not a fucking hero's dose. That is childish nomenclature. Fucking numpty.
Try telling your doctor you took 23 Panadol because its a "hero's dose" you twat.

Perhaps you should actually look into the research instead of sources outside of it to attempt to grasp it.

I did. Unlike yourself I saw what the results and conclusions were. They were NOT evidence for a god, gods, the supernatural, "mysticism" (redefined) or any other woo you care to name.

There WAS evidence that overdosing on drugs causes chemical changes to the brain.
There WERE results that suggested a % commonality of described experience under controlled conditions.

Nothing fucking new that we didn't know already.

They were NOT evidence for your "divine", God or any other fucking thing you have been wasting our time with.

Defining woo with woo does not a scientific paper make.

Now please stop. Your endless reiteration of failed argument and links to fucking youtube are tiresome. Be happy with your belief, keep taking the drugs until you end in hospital from an OVERDOSE. You can bet your sweet bippy that no doctor will say ..".oh look a "heroic dose" patient...stomach pump stat."

Have great time with your woo, I am done with you.

Kafei's picture
@Old man shoutsYour refusal

@Old man shouts

Your refusal to enter the real world and merely parrot the Videos you have obviously watched for yhoursd suggests to me that you have substituted your bible mania for this research.

I study the scriptures of all the world's major religions, I don't just focus on the Bible.

For your information anything exceeding the recommended dose is an OVER DOSE not a fucking hero's dose. That is childish nomenclature. Fucking numpty.

The recommended dose is the 'heroic dose." An overdose refers to a toxic dose. That's why they say when a rock star OD'ed on drugs, they're talking about a toxic or fatal dose.

Try telling your doctor you took 23 Panadol because its a "hero's dose" you twat.

The "heroic dose" essentially is the "effective dose."

Perhaps you should actually look into the research instead of sources outside of it to attempt to grasp it.

I did. Unlike yourself I saw what the results and conclusions were. They were NOT evidence for a god, gods, the supernatural, "mysticism" (redefined) or any other woo you care to name.

Mysticism isn't redefined in this research, they refer to the original etymology, and more accurately what they've found is that these mystical states of consciousness are evidence of the Perennial philosophy, and God is understood within this context. I've emphasized that repeatedly.

There WAS evidence that overdosing on drugs causes chemical changes to the brain.
There WERE results that suggested a % commonality of described experience under controlled conditions.

A commonality found in all of the major religions, not simply Christianity.

Nothing fucking new that we didn't know already.

Mystics and Perennialists have known about it. It's somewhat new to science, only discovered within the last century initiating with the work of William James.

They were NOT evidence for your "divine", God or any other fucking thing you have been wasting our time with.

The science would simply disagree with you.

Defining woo with woo does not a scientific paper make.

Once again, none of this research has anything whatsoever at all to do with "woo." This has been your projection.

Now please stop. Your endless reiteration of failed argument and links to fucking youtube are tiresome. Be happy with your belief, keep taking the drugs until you end in hospital from an OVERDOSE. You can bet your sweet bippy that no doctor will say ..".oh look a "heroic dose" patient...stomach pump stat."

Once again, I'd ask you to actually look at the research. The term mystical experience is concretely defined in the study, and we're not talking about the word mystical defined in the OED. Once you realize that, maybe then you can start actually grasping the research.

Have great time with your woo, I am done with you.

That's fine, but I'll point out that you never got started.

xenoview's picture
@Kafei

@Kafei
What scientific research are you talking about? Has it been peer reviewed? Who did the reviewing?

Kafei's picture
Yes, I'm speaking of peer

Yes, I'm speaking of peer-reviewed studies that have been published in The Scientific Journal of Psychopharmacology. This research has been produced by a team out of Johns Hopkins University led by Dr. Roland Griffiths.

xenoview's picture
@Kafei

@Kafei
The study of drugs and their effects of the mind is proof of a god or gods?

xenoview's picture
@Kafei

@Kafei
That is not science. What objective evidence do you have for a god?
I prayed to god, and received no answer. I ask god to reveal itself to me, god remained hidden.
So if god doesn't answer or reveal itself to me or anyone, then god doesn't exist.

Nyarlathotep's picture
Kafei - I maintain that this

Kafei - I maintain that this has absolutely nothing to do with "woo."

Yeah, I'm sure you don't think it is. But the crackpots never think they are crackpots. Worse, you've posted a lot of crackpot stuff in the past. What other conclusion do you think we should reach? Put yourself in our shoes; how would you respond to controversial claims made by someone with a history of making highly inaccurate statements?

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