The word of god

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Dave Matson's picture
Anyone who thinks the Bible

Anyone who thinks the Bible was written by an advanced being, let alone an omniscient god, is so deep into denial that a rational argument with that person is probably impossible. But, I'll add my two cents.

To begin with, the Bible is horribly organized. There is silly duplication of whole paragraphs (word for word!) in a work that should be written as though each word was purchased with a gold coin. That is, considering all the good things that could have been packed in, space is at a premium. An intelligent author would not stupidly waste space! That's a no brainer.

Aside from silly duplication, a massive amount of space is wasted on silly wars and violence. If there was a lesson to be learned here, unlikely in that God organizes much of the rape and genocide, a fraction of that material would have been sufficient. It would also have been clearly labeled as a lesson by an intelligent author.

Speaking of grossly incompetent organization, we find the instructions for salvation scattered over the 8 corners of the Bible! To start with there is a problem in identifying which passages actually relate to the requirements for salvation! Countless Christian sects are divided over this very issue. In some cases it is hard to say whether an instruction was universal or intended for a particular person or situation. Some passages say that good works are the only thing that really counts; others say that only faith counts. Some suggest that both are needed.

Anyone who thinks that this kind of organization is the work of a god, who wants to instruct his people, is truly deep into denial. Facts no longer mean anything. A freshman student taking an English Comprehension course would have had the good sense to collect all the material relating to salvation into one, short book. The instructions would be given clearly and with enough detail to suppress wiggle room, given exactly once in a rational order, and would not be mixed in with any other material. Is that asking too much for mighty God?

The Bible has silly science! Nobody's asking that nuclear physics be given to primitive people. Where science is given it should be reasonably accurate. What is the point of insanely dumbing it down to appeal to a few ignorant tribes only to sow doubt among billions of people in our times? Who said that an ancient reader had to understand everything? Clearly, God would have written some of his Bible for us today. We number in the billions. Is God too stupid to recognize where his main audience is?

Speaking of silly science, God confuses mold with leprosy! I documented that in my thread "Bible Follies: God is Confused About Leprosy and Mold" (07/27/2016). Then there is the business of using the Babylonian concept of the cosmos in Genesis, flat earth and all. I documented that in my thread "Flat-Earth World" (3/23/2016).

The Bible has plenty of erroneous history. Joshua "conquered" cities that didn't exist at that time! Then there is the tale of Noah's ark, an absurdity of such monstrous dimensions that even many Christians say that it must not be taken literally. Adding up the chronological details in the Bible points clearly to an earth that is not much older than 6000 years! Approximately 200 Bible scholars worked on that problem before science provided the answer, and the mean figure they got was around 6000 years. Clearly, that is the age assumed by the Bible. That so many ancient scholars could study the matter at length and come up with that figure means either that God is a totally incompetent writer or else that he was actually intended to present the earth as about 6000 years old.

The Bible is also filled with failed prophecies. The biggest one is Jesus' prophecy of an immediate return, a prophecy given in about 90 different verses! He was "knocking at the door" and would arrive before that generation passed away. The ax had been laid at the base of the tree! Anyone who can go through these 90 odd verses and come away believing that 2000 years later the prophecy is still valid is just plain nuts.

Then there is the prophecy about Nebuchadnezzar conquering Tyre, the island nation. Never happened! In this rare instance the Bible was still being written when the embarrassing truth became clear! Thus, we find an apologetic adjustment. Nebuchadnezzar was going to get his treasure by conquering Egypt. But that didn't happen either! The Bible is filled full of prophecies that failed in the most miserable manner! Of course, those deep in denial can't comprehend such a thing, so they come up with all these weird excuses. Anything but the obvious truth!

There are prophecies that have demonstrably never been fulfilled. Believers say that they will yet be fulfilled, but in many cases the historical stage that makes fulfillment meaningful is no longer there! And, there is no serious prospect of it ever returning!

The Bible is a moral cesspool unless you happen to be looking at the standard collection of ancient wisdom that had been handed down across the Middle East and elsewhere. Whole books have been written on the immoral verses in the Bible, but I could never stomach going more than a few pages or taking a brief look. It's just so depressing.

The Bible also has an ocean of contradictions. Once you understand that "A and not-A" is not how contradictions are identified in actual writing, and once you adopt a reasonable definition, then those great tomes of apologetics by Geisler and Archer fall to pieces. Sometimes whole books in the Bible contradict each other!

An intelligent author would also have made the Bible much more useful by including the modern convention of an index and a detailed table of contents. Verses would have been numbered as was later deemed necessary by mere humans.

There is nothing about the Bible that remotely suggests that it was written by an advanced author, let alone a divine author. People believe in it for the same reason that people believe in the Quran or any of the other holy literature of the world. Most of them were raised from childhood with such beliefs and have been thoroughly brainwashed. Such people will stoop to the silliest arguments to save their bacon. They will focus on some small point and ignore the surrounding mountains!

Mr. Breezy provides an excellent example of the above when he adopts the old canard that God didn't want to confuse ancient readers with modern science. But, as I have pointed out above, that bandage doesn't even begin to cover the huge wound! Indeed, God should be addressing us much more than the ancient few. We are his biggest audience! Moreover, there was never a requirement for an ancient to understand everything in the Bible. Being omniscient, God would have no trouble at all sticking with modern science in a way that doesn't confuse an ancient reader but would ring a bell for a modern reader. I know I could do it, so why not God? The only rational conclusion is that the Bible represents Bronze Age thinking amended by Iron Age authors. It is the result of political compromises, changing ideas, and much later editing to reflect diverse opinions. Some material was lost, and some material barely got voted in even though such was not widely recognized early on.

ʝօɦռ 6IX ɮʀɛɛʐʏ's picture
Most of the things you've

Most of the things you've written would appear to say more about you as a reader, than God as a "writer." Not all your points are bad, but enough are to make me wonder how serious you are.

How can I reason with someone that views even the absence of an index as an existential threat to God? Wait till you find out the Bible was written without vowels, you'll probably conclude it was the work of Satan lol.

David Killens's picture
@ʝօɦռ 6IX ɮʀɛɛʐʏ

@ʝօɦռ 6IX ɮʀɛɛʐʏ

John, can we both agree that the bible is a guide, and that we should not take everything literally?
Can we both agree that the bible is described as being inspired by god, or even that it is god's thoughts and words?

Thus, if god intended this bible to be a guide, it is one shit poor piece of instructions. I know brain damaged and emotionally crippled people who can do a better job at writing up guides.

ʝօɦռ 6IX ɮʀɛɛʐʏ's picture
I have no immediate reason to

I have no immediate reason to disagree with your two statements.

What a curious thing to say however; you might as well have said you know someone with broken arms that can outrun me lol. In any case, 2.5 billion Christians today; it's hard to argue something is poorly written when it's got a quarter of the world's population convinced.

Armando Perez's picture
The reality seems to be that

The reality seems to be that most Christian have not read the whole Bible, even less studied it seriously checking for consistency, etc.

http://www.faithwire.com/2017/04/25/how-much-of-the-bible-have-you-read-...

So they are not convinced by the good writing but by the ideas they have received at home or from their community or pastor/ father.
Besides, that many people believe in, like or get convinced by something does not prove that what they believe is not hogwash.

ʝօɦռ 6IX ɮʀɛɛʐʏ's picture
Whether it comes from the

Whether it comes from the ideas of the home or their own personal studies, it all traces back to the same book.

People getting convinced by hogwash, proves the hogwash is convincing. The Judeo-Christian religion is definitely one of the world's oldest religions. It predated all the Greek and Roman gods, and it also outlived them. It's hard to argue how it could have been more effective.

Sheldon's picture
"People getting convinced by

"People getting convinced by hogwash, proves the hogwash is convincing. "

Dear oh dear, that statement says it all really.

"It's hard to argue how it could have been more effective."

It could be true for a start, the way it fragments even today is ample evidence it can mean whatever adherents want to believe it means, from Catholicism to the Westboro baptist church, they all think they know what god wants, so how effective a communicator could such a deity be? Hitler thought he was doing "god's work" so do ISIS, yes indeed god is very convincing, just not very clear.

ʝօɦռ 6IX ɮʀɛɛʐʏ's picture
Whether it comes from the

Whether it comes from the ideas of the home or their own personal studies, it all traces back to the same book.

People getting convinced by hogwash, proves the hogwash is convincing. The Judeo-Christian religion is definitely one of the world's oldest religions. It predated all the Greek and Roman gods, and it also outlived them. It's hard to argue how it could have been more effective.

Dave Matson's picture
John 61X (dodge the issues)

John 61X (dodge the issues) Breezy,

Are you saying that God writes hogwash? The Bible is just a prop that Christians learn to lean on. It is rarely the means of their becoming Christians. But, it is often the means for a Christian becoming an atheist! God's book--the number one atheist recruiter!

If you are saying that God writes well, then maybe you should dig into that mountain of evidence I outlined and explain why I'am wrong. Maybe you should also take a basic writing course so that you can recognize good writing.

Sheldon's picture
"John 61X (dodge the issues)

"John 61X (dodge the issues) Breezy,

Are you saying that God writes hogwash?"

Well the alternative is that the hogwash wasn't written by a deity, but fallible evolved primates whose ignorance of the topics they wrote nonsense about is now a matter of record. It's not exactly a tough problem to crack really.

Sheldon's picture
"People getting convinced by

"People getting convinced by hogwash, proves the hogwash is convincing."

You do know what hogwash means? The fact people choose to believe nonsense is compelling just shows that belief validates nothing. The fact you think belief in nonsense makes it compelling tell us a great deal about how irrational your thought process is when defending your own beliefs though.

"The Judeo-Christian religion is definitely one of the world's oldest religions."

The legends of Hercules are even older, since belief doesn't validate claims then ipso facto they must be compelling as well, right?

" It predated all the Greek and Roman gods, and it also outlived them. It's hard to argue how it could have been more effective."

No it isn't, it could be more effective by being objectively true.

ʝօɦռ 6IX ɮʀɛɛʐʏ's picture
How many written works do you

How many written works do you know are not hogwash and obviously true, that have had the success of Scripture?

Sheldon's picture
Ada-boy, skip past your lie

Ada-boy, skip past your lie about a scientific consensus on evolution being a fallacious appeal to numbers, and your fallacious use of a bare appeal to numbers, and just go straight to the next irrelevant claim.

The clue is in the fact you're admitting the bible is nonsense. Harry Potter is far and away the most successful book about wizards and wizardry, does it evidence wizards?

You do see what you've done here don't you? You are admitting your beliefs are based on nonsense, whilst boasting about how successful that nonsense is at fooling gullible people who either don't realise or (like you apparently) don't care that it is nonsense. This is a rare glimpse into your thought process and explains a lot.

David Killens's picture
Sheldon, I am actually

Sheldon, I am actually disappointed in John. It is actually painful to see him grasping at so many straws.

But I have to admit I am in awe at his tenacity. You can never say he gives up, despite the fact his arguments died two thousand years ago.

Sheldon's picture
The denial of evolution is

The denial of evolution is like a switch being thrown for me, and coupled with dishonest evasion when I asked him repeatedly what other scientific facts he denied that don't in any way refute any part of his religious beliefs, well the bias is all too obvious. This of course was after I'd watched open mouthed as he tried to start two threads claiming that the (nonsense) bible condemned slavery, with John citing obscure platitudes, whilst refusing week after week to first answer, then afterwards even acknowledge any biblical texts that directly mentioned slavery. The bias was bad enough, but the sheer duplicity was my introduction to what was to become a fairly typical MO from him.

This latest revelation that he acknowledges the bible is nonsense, but thinks it is validated as well written just because of the numbers of believers, is just another startling piece of the puzzle.

For me if he can deny scientific fact, and claim to be using the scientific method then all rational discourse has ended. This of course has been confirmed again here where he lied and claimed a scientific consensus represented a *BARE appeal to numbers.

Can he really be so woefully ill-informed, or was this another example of "lying for the lord"?

Dave Matson's picture
John 61X (dodge the issues)

John 61X (dodge the issues) Breezy,

And what percentage of the world believes that the Qur'an was brilliantly written? Your argument applies just as well to the Qur'an doesn't it? I think your argument proves too much!

ʝօɦռ 6IX ɮʀɛɛʐʏ's picture
I'm not arguing against the

I'm not arguing against the effectiveness of the Koran, am I? It would be illogical for me to do so, the way it's illogical for you to do so.

Sheldon's picture
"I'm not arguing against the

"I'm not arguing against the effectiveness of the Koran, am I? It would be illogical for me to do so, the way it's illogical for you to do so."

So when you say the bible is effective you acknowledge this doesn't validate it's claims one iota? Or does the efficacy of the koran at recruiting the overly credulous conveniently not evidence what you claim the efficacy of the bible does? Selection bias seems to be an art John has fine tuned to the point where he seems unaware he's doing it.

ʝօɦռ 6IX ɮʀɛɛʐʏ's picture
"So when you say the bible is

"So when you say the bible is effective you acknowledge this doesn't validate it's claims one iota?

I don't just acknowledge it, I'm the only seemingly aware of the difference.

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ Breezy

@ Breezy

"In any case, 2.5 billion Christians today; it's hard to argue something is poorly written when it's got a quarter of the world's population convinced."

The Ad Populum argument...FFS sake Breezy...I thought you had SOME integrity....Oh wait....

ʝօɦռ 6IX ɮʀɛɛʐʏ's picture
That's not how "ad populum"

That's not how "ad populum" arguments work; when Sheldon says evolution is true because so many scientists believe it, thats an "ad populum" argument. My statement doesn't care if Scripture is true or not, only how effective it is. If a growth pill manages to make 2.5 billion people grow five inches, its hard to argue it wasn't an effective pill.

Dave Matson's picture
John 61X (Dodge the Issues)

John 61X (Dodge the Issues) Breezy,

You are missing the whole point, John. Scripture has nothing to do with recruiting Christians! How many people actually sit down, read the Bible from cover to cover, and are swept away by it into Christianity? Lol!! People learn to lean on the Bible after becoming Christians. However, the Bible DOES have the proven ability to convert many Christians to atheism! Think of it, God's book--a prime recruiter of atheism!

David Killens's picture
@ʝօɦռ 6IX ɮʀɛɛʐʏ

@ʝօɦռ 6IX ɮʀɛɛʐʏ

"That's not how "ad populum" arguments work; when Sheldon says evolution is true because so many scientists believe it, thats an "ad populum" argument."

There is a misunderstanding of terms. In the scientific community, scientists do not just "believe". It is more a matter of confidence in a theory or concept. Their acceptance is not dependent on any faith but rather reams of data that is open to examination, been rigorously scrutinized, attacked, and been basically through the acid test.

The scripture as presented to most theists is "here, this is what it is, take it on my word or faith". There is no critical examination or hard contrary debate within the theist community, that is done in places like this, from atheists.

In the scientific community, scientists want to render a theory wrong, in the theist community they want to render their beliefs correct. In both scenarios there is an agenda and bias. But one group sincerely wants to get to the truth, while the other group (theists) want to preserve their beliefs. For scientists, nothing is sacred. For theists, what is considered sacred is off-limits for critical examination and debate.

ʝօɦռ 6IX ɮʀɛɛʐʏ's picture
Perhaps its useful to view

Perhaps its useful to view things from my perspective. You already know I study the human mind; to be more specific I study cognition; and be more specific still, I'm currently taking a course on intelligence. Psychologists love to study where things go wrong, more than where things go right. Logically, I've studied all the ways in which reason and judgment goes wrong, and where intelligent people fail.

Now, I do think you have a very idealistic view of science, because undoubtedly scientists do bring in their beliefs, their biases, and preconceived ideas to work. There are also cultures and politics within science, in which those beliefs and biases are shared by other scientists. Consensus, therefore, is the multiplication of those individual beliefs. If a single scientist is a trustworthy source, then there's no need for consensus; the opinion of one suffices. That's not the case, however, and if you can't trust individual scientists, then consensus simply multiplies whatever errors existed.

That's why ad populum is a fallacy. Consensus doesn't determine truth, not in isolation, not in combination. You can add it to any other variable like a garnish, or mix it into a smoothie, consensus doesn't get you any closer to the truth. My position, unlike Sheldon's, has nothing to do with truth; thus why we can pretend Scripture is utter hogwash and it changes nothing. The question I'm concerned with, is if Scripture is effective.

"There is no critical examination or hard contrary debate within the theist community, that is done in places like this, from atheists."

Ok, then let's see you do just that. Take up my position for the remainder of the thread and defend it; or take the comments your fellow atheists have been making, and argue against them. It doesn't make sense to brag about a quality you don't demonstrate. Ironically enough, I think I'm the only one in the forum that does try to defend positions that go against my core beliefs. My denomination doesn't believe in souls for example, but theres a thread here somewhere where I defend the idea. So, I look forward to reading your responses defending Christianity.

Here's a thread in which I defended the flat earth, even though I know its a hopeless endeavour: http://www.atheistrepublic.com/forums/debate-room/flat-earth-really?page...

Sheldon's picture
Perhaps its useful to view

Perhaps its useful to view things from my perspective. You already know I study the human mind; to be more specific I study cognition; and be more specific still, I'm currently taking a course on intelligence.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Why Are Religious People (Generally) Less Intelligent?"

https://www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/mr-personality/201312/why-are-re...

David Killens's picture
I understand what you are

I understand what you are attempting, to throw everything into one pot.

But in the scientific community one individual is just the starting point. Any errors are identified, separated and destroyed. That is why one scientist is never enough. One can make a mistake or miss an error. But if that same concept is rigorously studied and attacked by multiple teams who's goal is to find any error or discrepancy, then the woo woo is eliminated.

Now you are dragging in the flat earth? Oh wait, that's right, according to the bible it is flat.

Is god a flat-earther? How can you bend your knee to such a messed up deity?

ʝօɦռ 6IX ɮʀɛɛʐʏ's picture
In case you missed the

In case you missed the conclusion of my post; let's see how well you do at defending ideas you don't hold. You can start easy, tackle Sheldon for few rounds.

P.S. I do want to point out that your view of science is again idealistic. I agree that having multiple teams attack an issue helps remove errors; but firstly that makes speaking about consensus pointless, and secondly it doesn't happen as much as anyone would like.

It makes consensus pointless because you would need to disregard the opinions of anyone who hasn't studied an issue for themselves. Secondly, replication doesn't happen as much as anyone would like, because research costs money, research is often impossible to replicate, and publishers are interested in validity and importance, not replication. Peer-reviewed means exactly that, peer reviewed, not peer replicated.

Dave Matson's picture
John 61X (Dodge the Issue)

John 61X (Dodge the Issue) Breezy,

Boy o Boy! The goal post sure got shifted around! At one time I was under the impression that this thread was about the claim that the Bible was the word of God. Now it's about defending ideas we don't hold.

ʝօɦռ 6IX ɮʀɛɛʐʏ's picture
Duh, that's what

Duh, that's what conversations do, they drift and branch.

David Killens's picture
And the bible isn't? It is a

And the bible isn't? It is a single point of reference, and you derive many things from it, including a strong opinion. Yet when it falls under critical examination, it becomes so leaky an entire profession was invented in a feeble attempt to support all the woo woo. If there was no criticism of the bible, apologists would not exist.

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