The Age of Consent
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Fantastic job, Old Man. Thank you for taking the time and pushing through the difficulty to provide us with that much needed fresh breath of sanity. Bravo!... *applause*...
Realistically there is no appropriate age of consent. We do not have empirical data for this social convention. Wouldn't it be great if there were some sort of qualifying examination to ensure people were educated, aware, and mature enough for sexual encounters? But how would one even begin determining these things. All we use currently is a biological marker and the random age of 18 but courts all over the US make allowances for mature 13 to 16 depending on the history of the individual. I have seen people in their 30s, men and women who have no business engaging in sex relationships with other people.
I think it is fair to agree that it is amoral for an adult to have sex with a child. What about a 28 year old man with a functional IQ in the average range with a woman who is functioning in the 80 range. *THE MINIMUM REQUIREMENT FOR IQ IN THE US ARMY IS 85, BELOW THAT AND YOU DO NOT HAVE THE ABILITY TO MASTER BASIC SOLDERING. " So how is a person with an IQ of 80 going to master sexual relations?
What do we actually mean by age of consent? We agree that some populations NEED PROTECTION. Yet once that magical age of consent has been reached we wipe our hands of the situation.
Muhammad himself was an literate rapist, and sexual pervert, and would have been imprisoned in our modern world or even put to death for his exploits in the modern Islamic world. The man was certainly not capable of giving or receiving consent of any kind. He would have been the neighbor who upon renting a room in your neighborhood, would have to go and knock on every single door on the block to inform the residence that he was a child molester.
I am not sure what age of consent means. I am sure that some people take advantage of other people to satisfy their own sexual urges. I am fully certain that some groups need to be protected. Children among those groups, the infirmed, the elderly, the fiscally challenged, and certainly people lacing the skills and ability to give informed consent. But we have no tests or ways of locating all these groups of people. What we have is a legal system that listens to both sides and then makes a decision.
I do not see how anyone responsible for having sex with a 6 year old child (Muhammad had sex with his bride when she was six not 9) He did not penetrate here until she was 9. (All the MuZzies are doing here is pulling a Bill Clinton. "Muhammad did not have sex with that girl until she was 9) It's a lie. Muhammad began thighine the girl at 6.
Muhammad placed his penis between the thighs of Aisha and he massaged it to orgasm since he could not have sexual intercourse with her until she was nine.
Praise be to Allah and peace be upon the one after whom there is no [further] prophet.
After the permanent committee for the scientific research and fatwahs (religious decrees) reviewed the question presented to the grand Mufti Abu Abdullah Muhammad Al-Shemary, the question forwarded to the committee by the grand scholar of the committee with reference number 1809 issued on 3/8/1421 (Islamic calendar). The inquirer asked the following:
It has become wide spread these days, and especially during weddings, the habit of mufa’khathat of the children (mufa’khathat literally translated means "placing between the thighs" which means placing the male member between the thighs of a child). What is the opinion of scholars knowing full well that the prophet, the peace and prayer of Allah be upon him, also practiced the "thighing" of Aisha - the mother of believers - may Allah be please with her.
After the committee studied the issue, they gave the following reply:
It has not been the practice of the Muslims throughout the centuries to resort to this unlawful practice that has come to our countries from pornographic movies that the kufar (infidels) and enemies of Islam send. As for the prophet, peace and prayer of Allah be upon him, thighing his fiancée Aisha. She was six years of age and he could not have intercourse with her due to her small age. That is why [the prophet] peace and prayer of Allah be upon him placed his [male] member between her thighs and massaged it softly, as the apostle of Allah had control of his [male] member not like other believers.
You said: “Muhammad placed his penis between the thighs of Aisha and he massaged it to orgasm since he could not have sexual intercourse with her until she was nine.”
Let me dumb it down for you. If you are stating something from Islam you will need to give the source. Such as ‘Quran chapter so and so, verse so and so’ Or hadith so and so book, chapter so and so… etc. Now, please provide your sources for your charge.
I read the Quran twice and don't remember that.
The PA AG report on the bishops said that some of them believed the age of consent was 7.
Let me dumb it down for you ROYISM, is there any context where it is moral for adults in their 50's to masturbate onto, marry or have sex with 9 year old children?
Only you have even tried to claim any of that is not sickeningly immoral.
I'll go farther, you have stated plainly you think the age of consent should be 9, and not 16. Your views on consent are repulsive and immoral, the word games to justify them asinine, and hypocritical as you have also claimed you would not want your own children married off at 9 to 50 year old men.
Only religion can make sane people do such imbecilic mental cartwheels.
@Read the link : You are supposed to be the Muslim. Why don't you know your own religious history? Please tell me Muhammad was from Mecca so I can shove that one down your throat as well.
Fatwa, in Islam, a formal ruling or interpretation on a point of Islamic law given by a qualified legal scholar (known as a mufti). Fatwas are usually issued in response to questions from individuals or Islamic courts.
According to an official Fatwa issued in Saudi Arabia, the prophet Muhammad began to practice thighing his child-bride, Aisha when she was six years old until she reached nine years of age (Fatwa No. 31409). The hadith, which was quoted earlier, mentioned the prophet Muhammad started performing literal sex with Aisha ONLY when she reached the age of nine (Sahih al-Bukhari, book 62, hadith No. 89). Therefore, Muslim scholars collectively agree, by virtue of divine example, a child becomes an adult, available for sexual intercourse as soon as she reaches the age of nine. Likewise, the Shari’a allows any of the faithful to marry a six-year-old child.
@ROYISM: you are trying too hard to defend something for which you lack evidence.
Please answer this question and you'll see why half the world considers your prophet a pedophile.
Q. Would you allow your daughter at the age of 6 to be married away to a 50 year old man?
Yes? Please explain why.
No? Please explain why.
Q. Would you allow your daughter at the age of 9 to be married away to a 53 year old man and permit that man to have intercourse with her?
Yes? Please explain why.
No? Please explain why.
Q. If a 53 year old man, who happens to be your close friend, comes tomorrow and proposes to your daughter while in discussion with you. What would be your reaction?
Would you label him as a dirty, rapist individual and cut off all ties with him? If not, why?
Q. Let's forget when the penis was inserted inside the vagina. Let's talk about the age when Ayesha was given away in marriage. The age of 6. Do you think in this age a girl is able to make decisions or provide her own consent on the agreement or disagreement of something related to her?
If yes, then why? Can you give a shred of evidence based on a psychological study that proves that a 6-year-old is emotionally ready to make accurate decisions of such sort?
If not psychology, can you give example FROM ANYWHERE in the history where a 6-year-old was so wise and smart that she was able to make sexual decisions for herself? Like, perhaps a case when such a marriage occurred to a 6-year-old? As I mentioned before, please don't talk about consummation. I don't care about when the dick went inside the vagina. I want to know how any parent can give away a child of this age in marriage.
You said: “Please answer this question and you'll see why half the world considers your prophet a pedophile.”
If you had followed our discussion in the previous thread, you would know exactly where I stand on this.
You said: “Would you allow your daughter at the age of 6 to be married away to a 50 year old man?”
No I won’t. Because according to our current times, taking into consideration our educational system, career, job etc… which are important for one to live a decent life in the current times.
"No I won’t. Because according to our current times, taking into consideration our educational system, career, job etc… which are important for one to live a decent life in the current times."
Sounds fair. Let's assume your daughter was exceptionally brilliant and could pass the 10th grade at the age of 6. She loved science, she was logical and could easily solve difficult mathematical questions. Can you now give her away for marriage at the age of 6? If still not, I'd like to know why.
As for career and job, I don't think anyone uses that factor to decide the marriage of their daughter. It is always by default that the career of the man is looked upon and not the girl. If you think otherwise, can you tell me why?
You said: “Sounds fair. Let's assume your daughter was exceptionally brilliant and could pass the 10th grade at the age of 6. She loved science, she was logical and could easily solve difficult mathematical questions. Can you now give her away for marriage at the age of 6? If still not, I'd like to know why.”
If you are going down that hypothetical route, then let’s go the whole hog. So, here is my 6 year old daughter, who has the maturity of an adult. She is not only intellectually and emotionally fully mature, but she is also physically mature. And she decides to go in for a martial relationship, because she has started feeling the urges of nature and is seeking a legit way to satisfy it. In that situation who am I to tell her NO!!! (Of course, I will have to take the law of the land into consideration, lest there would be legal complications. But otherwise, I would have absolutely no qualms in acceding to her needs).
On a side note: I would like to remind you that Aisha was not entered into a marital relationship at 6. It was only an engagement at 6, and it was consummated at 9.
You said: “As for career and job, I don't think anyone uses that factor to decide the marriage of their daughter. It is always by default that the career of the man is looked upon and not the girl. If you think otherwise, can you tell me why?’
Well, I would want to make sure that my daughter has the required skills to make her own living. Just so, because if in future her marriage runs into trouble, she can be independent. But that’s just my personal opinion, I don’t think that’s binding on everyone.
"On a side note: I would like to remind you that Aisha was not entered into a marital relationship at 6. It was only an engagement at 6, and it was consummated at 9."
You keep repeating this as is it was some kind of "Get out of jail free" card. It is not, it just confirms that even old perverts can be patient. And that you, ROYISM, have a broken moral compass. If it functions at all.
The only thing that statement describes is that vaginal penetration did not occur until she was nine years of age. How that poor child must have feared that day, she knew when it would happen, and what atrocities would be performed on her body. Up to that day, the dirty old pervert was ejaculating all over her body. And what about oral sex, anal sex, hand jobs?
@ David Killens
You said: “Up to that day, the dirty old pervert was ejaculating all over her body. And what about oral sex, anal sex, hand jobs?”
I am still waiting for the evidence from hadith for these accusations. And you guys are repeating it without even showing the basic etiquette that one is supposed to do while bringing such a horrible charge – please spell out where in the hadith or quran you got this from.
As far as my knowledge goes, there is no direct hadith or Quranic evidence of thighing Ayesha.
But there is evidence of sucking her tongue during fasting.
That alone is making me vomit. Do you require the evidence?
But there is evidence of sucking her tongue during fasting.
That alone is making me vomit. Do you require the evidence?
Yes please. Can i have the evidence?
I am extremely disappointed by your knowledge of Islam. The fact that you have absolutely no idea of these events proves that you are not knowledgeable enough to participate in arguments.
"Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin: The Prophet (peace be upon him) used to kiss her and SUCK HER TONGUE when he was fasting." Sunan Abu Dawud 13:2380
Who the fuck kind of sicko sucks the tongue of a young girl? This can't even be labeled as French kiss. And that also during fasting? Your prophet had one enormous amount of lust in his personality. Vicious and pernicious lust which destroyed the lives of others. Destroyed the life of Sauda who was about to be divorced by Muhammad because she had reached old age. As a sacrifice and to save her marriage because she was OLD and couldn't look after herself alone, she gave up her "night for intercourse" to Ayesha. So Muhammad stopped having intercourse with Sauda and Ayesha now had 2 nights on which Muhammad would have intercourse.
According to the hadith, there were times when Muhammad had sex with 9 of his wives on a SINGLE NIGHT. Jesus, my dick would probably fall off. In fact, even a prostitute wouldn't be this desperate. And by the way, what a great way this is to pass HIV, the dick comes out of one vagina and then goes into another and then repeats for 8 more times.
I can also give you the evidence where Ayesha was struck and it caused her chest pain. Who did this? Your beautiful and kind prophet. In fact, the poor Ayesha was struck many times. Both by Abu Bakr and Muhammad.
Don't ask me for evidence for the beating of Ayesha. You lack knowledge in Islam, fix that.
You said: “"Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin: The Prophet (peace be upon him) used to kiss her and SUCK HER TONGUE when he was fasting." Sunan Abu Dawud 13:2380
Look. Let’s be clear on what the issue here is. Nobody is disputing that Aisha and the prophet had sexual relations after she moved to his household after she came of age at 9.
Before that, she was not even living with Mohammad. But the guys in this thread are claiming that he was thighing her when she was 6 as he couldn’t have intercourse with her at that age.
It is this that I have been demanding a proof for. But none has been furnished yet. And now you have agreed that there is no proof for it, and instead you are talking about ‘sucking of tongue’.
But the proof you brought does not mention anything about the age! Yes, of course, for 9 long years they had lived a very eventful and sexually active life like any husband and wife. To bring up details from those instances does not prove anything.
You said: “Your prophet had one enormous amount of lust in his personality. Vicious and pernicious lust which destroyed the lives of others.”
If you want to pick out the relationship between a husband and wife and call it these names, who in the world could be saved such ignominy? If you are getting after the fact that Aisha was young, then that’s the issue we are trying to settle in this thread! If you have your take on what must be the appropriate age, then bring it on. Let’s see what objective standards you have against which you are making moral judgments on this relationship.
You said: “Destroyed the life of Sauda who was about to be divorced by Muhammad because she had reached old age.”
The prophet had never taken any steps to divorce her in particular. There was an issue (I am not explaining it lest it gets too long) and he was considering divorcing all his wives. In fact, in the case of Sauda, she was the one who was requesting the prophet to divorce ‘cos she thought she was too old. But he did not. SO much for a lustful man!
You said: “As a sacrifice and to save her marriage because she was OLD and couldn't look after herself alone, she gave up her "night for intercourse" to Ayesha.
It was not to save her marriage. (Please produce your proof if you have). It was out of consideration for Aisha. Sauda was not interested in sexual intimacy and was happy to relent her time to Aisha. The prophet did not even so much as suggest this to her. It was entirely on her discretion.
You said: “According to the hadith, there were times when Muhammad had sex with 9 of his wives on a SINGLE NIGHT.”
If you read this hadith, you will notice that this was not coming from any of the wives of the prophets or the prophet himself. This was from a sahaba. When you read this in the light of other hadith that clearly states that the prophet dedicated a day for each wife.
Just read the example you provided in the previous point about Sauda, where she relegates her days to Aisha. If the prophet was visiting all wives in one night or as he pleased, there wouldn’t have been any need for this.
Moreover, from other hadith we also know that the prophet was extremely strict and uncompromising in this. He wouldn’t break the schedules, as he looked at it as an infringement of their rights. Which is why he needed Sauda’s permission to spend more time with Aisha.
However, he would make sure that he visited all his wives once in a day just to make sure everything is fine. On days that he was busy during the day, he would pay a quick visit during the night.
You said: “I can also give you the evidence where Ayesha was struck and it caused her chest pain. Who did this? Your beautiful and kind prophet. In fact, the poor Ayesha was struck many times. Both by Abu Bakr and Muhammad.”
As that is out of our topic, I am not going to answer that. If you insist, I can explain that as well.
"I am still waiting for the evidence from hadith for these accusations."
Fuck your hadith, use common sense.
The only thing that statment confirms is that old perverts can be patient.
If an old man was willing to ejaculate on a child's body, and he had absolute control of this child for many years, he would also perform other sex acts on her.
He was waiting three years to get to the final sex act, and it pains me to think that this child waited three years knowing when that sad day would arrive.
Horrible charge? You must be joking, we are discussing (and you agree) that a 53 year old man had sex with a nine year old girl. Sick, disgusting, revolting, definitely the lowest and most vile of things one can do to a child. Whether she was 6 or 9, it is 100% immoral.
"Muhammad was married to thirteen women, including eleven at one time. He relegated them to either consecutive days or (according to some accounts) all in one night. He had sex with a 9-year-old girl and married his adopted son's wife (after arranging a quick divorce). On top of that, Muhammad had a multitude of slave girls and concubines with whom he had sex - sometimes on the very days in which they watched their husbands and fathers die at the hands of his army.
So, by any realistic measure, the creator of the world's most sexually restrictive religion was also one of the most sexually indulgent characters in history."
It's not possible for a 6 year old to have a physical maturity of an adult.
If that is the case, she is not 6 years old and her biological age is 100% older.
You said: It's not possible for a 6 year old to have a physical maturity of an adult.
You bring up a hypothetical question where this super whiz kid passes 10th standard and so on. And I complete the hypothetical question including her physical maturity. Well, anything is possible once you make it hypothetical. When I answer that, you suddenly want me to return to the normal world where 6 year olds are just 6 year olds. Talk of goal shifting!!!
Well, if my daughter is a normal 6 year old, I WILL NOT GET HER MARRIED! PERIOD. I don’t know how I can hammer that into your skulls.
Because the hypothetical condition which I assumed was at least possible without having a medical condition. A 6 year old having fully-grown breasts and pubic hair is fucking absurd unless she has a disorder or she's biologically older.
Let me hammer something in your illiterate skull. You are dumb and stupid for making an exception in your daughter's case and not in Ayesha's case.
You said: “Because the hypothetical condition which I assumed was at least possible without having a medical condition. A 6 year old having fully-grown breasts and pubic hair is fucking absurd unless she has a disorder or she's biologically older.”
Okay fine. If your hypothetical situation does not imagine that the 6 year was mature, then my answer in simple. I won’t give my daughter away in marriage.
You said: “Let me hammer something in your illiterate skull. You are dumb and stupid for making an exception in your daughter's case and not in Ayesha's case.”
That’s because I don’t back project our standards on to another era far distanced from ourselves. Otherwise bring me your universal moral standard for the age of consent. That magic number that can be applied anywhere, anytime.
So it was moral then but not now, how is that objective morality?
So it was moral then but not now, how is that objective morality?
Go read the chess example I gave you in the previous thread!
I don't need your desperate and imbecillic chess fallacy. Either its objectively moral, or it changes according to context. They're mutually exclusive positions.
You said: “I don't need your desperate and imbecillic chess fallacy. Either its objectively moral, or it changes according to context. They're mutually exclusive positions.
Assertions and assertions! What is objective cannot change according to contexts!!! So “water is liquid” is not an objective reality, because it changes into ice at subzero temps. Or gravity is not an objective reality, because things float in space!!! SO much for your appreciation of objectivity.
Royism, is there a spreadsheet available to show us what actions are ‘objectively’ moral today, tomorrow, and twenty years from now in the U.S.A., in Yemen, in Norway?
Another of your facile non-sequiturs, it's at least as moronic as your facile chess analogy. Either raping children is objectively moral or it ceases to be moral according to context, they are mutually exclusive positions.
What force keeps the earth orbiting the sun? The earth was "in space" last time I looked. You really are priceless, and again this moronic non-sequitur doesn't change the fact you are trying to claim that it is objectively moral to rape children, but simultaneously that it is moral according to context,, they are mutually exclusive positions, no matter how much dishonest semantics you post to evade the answering.
You said: “Either raping children is objectively moral or it ceases to be moral according to context, they are mutually exclusive positions.”
Firstly, you are just asserting your misrepresentation of a marriage as rape. And what is your basis – an arbitrary standard that by no means is universal even according to your own admission.
Secondly, your assertion that an objective truths can’t consider contexts. That’s once again your assertion, which is what I have disproven using the water analogy. Do you mean to say that H20 is liquid in all conditions of temperature and pressure?
You said: “What force keeps the earth orbiting the sun?”
Oh okay! I wonder why astronauts are given zero-gravity training before launching into space?
Re: Roy - "You said: “What force keeps the earth orbiting the sun?”
Oh okay! I wonder why astronauts are given zero-gravity training before launching into space?"
...*clap-clap-clap*... Okay, children! Everybody take your seats!... *turning to chalkboard*... *writing 'GRAVITY' on board*... *turning back toward room*... Okay, class, settle down, settle dow- COG! GET YOUR FINGER OUT OF THERE! THAT'S DISGUSTING! And, Old Man, STOP encouraging him!... *pinching bridge of nose with thumb and index finger*... *shaking head slowly*... *heavy sigh*... *looking up toward ceiling*... Why me?... *looking back to room*... Sheldon. Nyar. Would you be so kind as to monitor those two for me, please. Thank you.
Now, boys and girls, as I was about to say, today's lesson is abo- Roy!... ROY!... ROOOOOY!... Oh, good grief. Cyber, would you please shake Roy to wake him for me?... Ah. There we go. Thank you, Cyber. So, Mr. Roy, thank you for joining us. Sorry to interrupt your dream about 72 virgins, but today's lesson is especially for you. Please do try to pay attention. There's a good lad.
So, as I was saying, today we are learning about gravity as it relates to objects in orbit around our planet. Now, I understand some of you may be confused about the term "zero gravity" that is often used, as if there is no gravitational influence in space. As if gravity somehow magically disappears once you leave the planet. And when you see astronauts in a spacecraft floating around like bubbles, it is easy to think they are not being affected by any type of gravitational influence. But that is far from true.
The reason the astronauts appear to "float" inside the spacecraft while in orbit is because they are in a state of constant freefall around the planet. And the reason the spacecraft is able to maintain that "circular" path around the planet is directly caused by the gravitational pull of the Earth not wanting to "let go" of it. And while it is very, very slight, the astronauts are under the influence of micro-gravity, as they too are still within the "grasp" of Earth's gravitational pull. See?
Okay, kids, I hope you all learned someth-... *puzzled look on face*... What's that noise? Sounds like a muted chainsaw... *looks toward Roy*... *face palm*... Of course... He's snoring... *heavy sigh*... Roy!... ROY!... ROOOOOY!... *shaking head slowly*... Oh, nevermind... Class dismissed. Your homework assignment is on the boa- COG! Don't you DARE fling that in here!... *grumbling to self*... (I swear, I'm not getting paid enough for this...)
Edit to add: (Gonna move this to end of thread so it has a better chance of being seen.)
@Royism: That’s because I don’t back project our standards on to another era far distanced from ourselves.
Setting aside the emotional development of a 9-year-old girl, what about her physical development? The age of menarche has been falling in modern times, probably because of improved nutrition. There are also appears to some ethnic variation. The average in the West today is around 12-13. What do you think was the typical age of puberty for sixth century Arabian nomads? I'm no expert, but I'd guess Mohammed's 9yo 'wife' would have been far less mature physically than a 9yo girl today.
For the sake of comparison, consider the case of Margaret Beaufort, the grandmother of Henry VIII of England. She was married at the age of 12 to a 25-year-old man who promptly made her pregnant. She nearly died giving birth to Henry VII at 13.
Different times, different cultures, different religions, different attitudes.... But you can't argue with human physiology. And to have sex with a 9yo or a 13yo at the risk of her life is immoral in any era.