Do you believe in fate? I can scientifically prove that it does exist.

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God Follower's picture
Really?

Really?

mykcob4's picture
Really!

Really!

God Follower's picture
I am giving you one more

I am giving you one more chance.. Really?

chimp3's picture
Ok. We know that the universe

Almighty: Ok. We know that the universe and the smallest particles within it are subject to physical laws. Do you think that we are without the capacity to make choices or for learning? Do you believe the Rape on Nanking, the discovery of the telescope, the Holocaust, and the choice you made for supper last night were predetermined by the Big Bang?

God Follower's picture
Yes..Predetermined.. Didn't I

Yes..Predetermined.. Didn't I say that in the beginning of this thread?

Nyarlathotep's picture
There you have it folks.

There you have it folks. According to "The Almighty" the holocaust, my flat tire, and the font used on this website are all direct consequences of the big bang!

God Follower's picture
Yes.. And this comment too..

Yes.. And this comment too.. And do you really think that the flat tire was just a random thing which wouldn't have happened but the cruel probability did it?

Deidre32's picture
Hi Almighty, I'm a theist,

Hi Almighty, I'm a theist, but was an atheist for a few years, when I initially left Christianity. What I've come to think about it all now, is maybe fate is perceived as random by us, because we don't control it. God or higher power or whatever someone chooses to think from a deist/theist level, is in control.

mykcob4's picture
Well that isn't a logic

Well that isn't a logic conclusion. What makes you think that there is a god? If so prove this god. Then prove that this god is controlling things. I think that you suffer from a weakness of thought, that you have given up on thinking and as all theist just jump to a conclusion. Not that contemplating whether there is a god or not takes up all of my time. I just think people get comfortable in think that there is a mysterious god controlling fate. There is no evidence of such a thing. Or maybe you just gave in to peer pressure and went along with the crowd, didn't like feeling lonely. I doubt very much that you were actually an atheist. I bet you have always been a follower and have never consciously made a decision on your own. You would be alone on that. Far from it. The vast majority live that way. Makes me wonder why you embarked on this forum. Are you having questions? Are you wavering between peer pressure and controlling your own thoughts? Could it be that you are so unsure about things that you want some sort of confirmation?
My guess it's something along those lines. Why don't you start your own thread and ask the questions that you are apparently asking yourself? I think with the people here you can find some answers. Ultimately though conclusions can only come from you for you.
If don't agree with my analysis of your condition, then please be responsible and prove your god and that that god has any control over anything.

Deidre32's picture
First, I joined this site

First, I joined this site when I was an atheist. I enjoy discussing things like this with atheists and theists, alike. I don't need to explain myself to you, your tone is very judgmental, and angry. Why are you angry that I believe in something you don't? I'm not convincing you to believe it, so not sure why it matters to you that I do believe in a deity.

mykcob4's picture
Nope not angry. My manner is

Nope not angry. My manner is abrupt I admit, but I am not angry. And yes you don't have to explain yourself to me. I apologize for the inference. As far as I can tell you have always been polite. Not my forte sadly.
I am wondering allowed when I make analysis of posters, their position, and how they identify themselves. It is a puzzlement.
But if you believe that there is a "guiding hand", then you have to first prove such a hand exist, and furthermore prove that that hand is truly guiding events. Just saying that you BELIEVE that there MUST be someone or something in control is not enough, not for me anyway.

Deidre32's picture
Because I had an experience

Because I had an experience of faith, that to me, can only be explained as some type of supernatural event. And this occurred when I was still an atheist last year. I know, this probably sounds bordering insane, but it is what happened. Before I identified as an atheist, I was following Christianity, but only in as much as 'having faith' and 'following the Bible stories.' It never felt like I owned that faith, it was something I grew up with, and carried on as part of my family's heritage or something, if that makes sense. It was never my own. Not until I left it, and identified as an atheist, and became indifferent to anything have to do with the supernatural, was I surprised to learn that a power like that exists. You don't have to believe me, but it is not just mere faith anymore for me, I feel like I've felt something, not just wished it to be.

My reason for coming back here, I have been off of this site for a while, was just to see what's going on. My intentions aren't to convince you to become theists. ^_^

mykcob4's picture
I believe you, why shouldn't

I believe you, why shouldn't I. What I don't believe is that it was supernatural. I would need real proof. I think that you genuinely believe that you experienced something supernatural. However I don't think that it was or is and could actually be explained. Try this, I'm sure you may already have but, If indeed something happened to you that you could not explain, then why jump to a conclusion that it actually was supernatural?
In a court of law they can't convict a murderer on "who else could have done it?" They have to prove that the suspect actually did it.
I see freaky inexplicable things often and have experienced them in the past, but never do I attribute those things to something supernatural. I attribute them to not have all the necssary facts to know why they occurred.

God Follower's picture
No.. It cannot be controlled.

No.. It cannot be controlled. It all started from big bang and ends in big bang will go through every thing that is determined at the time of big bang. No amount of prayers can change that and no one is looking from top, listening to us and ready to help when in trouble..

Dave Matson's picture
Deidre,

Deidre,

Good point! I guess we're using it in a deterministic sense.

God Follower's picture
I didn't say we can predict

I didn't say we can predict future.. But we can replay everything just before making that computer.

Deidre32's picture
Ah, ok. This is such an

Ah, ok. This is such an interesting topic, the whole idea behind pre-determinism, and so on. I think that if things are pre-determined, do we have a say so in our own destinies then? I read something really fascinating about all this recently and it talked about how if we believe in pre-determinism, then we must believe that even our own choices are pre-determined! How can that be? Well, it went on to say that our childhoods, and all of our experiences are all leading up to how we make choices. So nothing may really be a true choice after all, if what led to our choice was out of our control.

Nyarlathotep's picture
Right Deidre! In a

Right Deidre! In a deterministic world there can't be free will. You might also notice that in a world that has a deity that knows everything (including the future) free will can't exist either. I want to be clear, I'm not arguing that we have freewill (I just don't know), just pointing out the contradictions.

Deidre32's picture
Nyarlathotep - yes, it's

Nyarlathotep - yes, it's really an interesting thing to ponder. It made me wonder when I read that recently, if the universe is all ''pre-determined,'' then does this mean that my ability to choose, in essence, my free will...is merely an illusion? Maybe we're all a part of the matrix. lol ^_^

Nyarlathotep's picture
If someone tells you that you

If someone tells you that you don't have freewill, fire-off a really nasty personal remark about them. When they complain and ask why you did that; shrug your shoulders and tell them it isn't your fault, you didn't have any say in the matter because you don't have freewill!

mykcob4's picture
Funny, I really like that!

Funny, I really like that!

Deidre32's picture
@ Nyarlathotep - lol, I shall

@ Nyarlathotep - lol, I shall try this and report back here as to the reactions.

mykcob4's picture
If you had watched 'Thinking

If you had watched 'Thinking like a genius' by Stephen Hawkins, You would understand that Einstein observed that the visible world there is a clockwork like predictability to things, thus all actions cause a reaction, that nothing is random. BUT.....Hawkins took it further to the subatomic world and found everything is completely random. The subatomic world creates a cause (action) in the observable world to react, and therefore everything is completely random. So there is no "fate", no "hand of god" directing things. You have completely missed a huge part of the universe. Time, matter, have no meaning in the subatomic world. We can observe things as small as string theory but have no clue why certain particles appear or what characteristics(value) they possess. Their actions are unpredictable and random.

http://www.dailygalaxy.com/my_weblog/2010/09/the-universe-exists-because...

http://www.pbs.org/show/genius-stephen-hawking/

Deidre32's picture
@mykcob4 - relating to your

@mykcob4 - relating to your post above, I understand your thoughts. There could be a myriad of reasons, but it's unlikely. Not because I want to believe that, but because it happened. It would be like running over a nail in your car, then you get a flat tire. You could assume the flat tire came from something else,but most likely it was the nail. You can't prove it to yourself or anyone, but up until you ran over that nail, everything was...quiet and fine. When other people tell you...your tire must have been getting flat for a while, probably wasn't that nail, you don't believe them because you just know, it was the nail. That's the best way I can explain this. I was an atheist when it happened. I had no reason to believe in the supernatural, because I had stopped believing. Not only stopped believing, but hadn't thought about it anymore, didn't even debate it anymore on atheist sites with theists. But, I ran over a nail that day, and what happened, caught my attention.

Just like I can't prove to you that a deity exists, you can't prove one does not. That's the great conundrum we find ourselves in...together lol ^_^

mykcob4's picture
1) I could go on why you

1) I could go on why you could actually prove it was the nail but I won't.
2) It's not a conundrum because it isn't incumbent on me to prove a theory that I didn't make up.
The onus is entirely on those who believe in a god. I appreciate the time you took to explain what you didn't have to though...thank you.

Deidre32's picture
You know, when I was an

You know, when I was an atheist, I used to wonder if a lot of people believe in something, could it be true then? Does that make it true? Does a theory become accepted because a lot of people believe it? There are scientific theories that are still only theories, that because a vast majority buy into it, and of course, the theory has evidence to support it (ie the theory of evolution) then, it's believed. This is somewhat like faith, and now as Christian, I'm one of millions of believers, so does this make it true? The evidence is what each individual Christian believes it to be, perhaps subjective, but the Bible is considered objective proof in some ways. It's just something that occurred to me in reading this thread...that theories are just theories, but if enough people believe them to be true, they become accepted truths. Still only theories, just the same.

mykcob4's picture
great post I can't add

great post I can't add anything. Only that even the founders of our nation knew that the majority is usually wrong.

Dave Matson's picture
Deidre,

Deidre,

You are confusing two different meanings of the word "theory." The popular use means "half-baked" or "speculative." Compare that to the scientific meaning whereby a theory must account for a whole range of data, make useful predictions that guide further research, and show how the multitude of facts within its explanatory range fit together into the greater pattern of knowledge. Having the label of "theory" in science is like winning the Nobel Prize! Evidence is the ultimate arbitrator of a scientific idea, not popularity. However, if the world's experts line up on something, such as global warming, that's a real good indication that you're looking at a fact.

Deidre32's picture
@ Greensnake, thank you that

@ Greensnake, thank you that is true, I might have been conflating the two. But, there are theories out there in the science community, but are not widely accepted. Sort of fringe theories, and mainstream science might even consider such theories as ''pseudo-science.'' But, those theories are backed by evidence, and how many theories do we accept today, but were once considered nonsense decades ago. Galileo was imprisoned for his theories, but now they are widely accepted, for example.

Dave Matson's picture
Deidre,

Deidre,

Perhaps some of these "theories" ought to be labeled as speculation or, as you suggested, pseudo-science. Maybe we should look at one or two concrete examples to develop your point which is still a bit unclear to me.

New ideas occasionally topple a mighty, scientific edifice. Einstein overthrew Newtonian physics, and "continental drift" (now called plate tectonics) was ridiculed for years in the scientific community before the evidence proved decisive. Now it's the core of geology. However, each scientific revolution moves us closer to the truth. It's not an exercise in futility, a pendulum swinging back and forth and going nowhere. And, the older views were often never that wrong to begin with (except conceptually). Newtonian physics is still good enough to build great bridges and ocean liners, and it still gives us a lot of insight. Indeed, the formulas for Einstein's relativity reduces to Newton's formulas for speeds way below that of light.

It would be a mistake to think that, because scientific views are often overthrown, science is always on shaky ground, that we can never really be confident about it. A lot of solid knowledge is being piled up as science progresses. Our scientific eyesight becomes clearer and clearer as more errors are identified and cleared away by new theories. Each succeeding theory is that much closer to the truth conceptually and, quite often, will still be valid for many applications even as Newtonian physics is.

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