Easter, Bloody Easter!
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Here's a funny video about Easter = https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKJ-OhU1ffs
Also, I’d really like to see this conclusive evidence that Easter was adopted from pagan religions. I want real evidence. Not things that look like evidence but are not.
Also, the bunnies and the eggs were mentioned in relation to Easter. Admittedly, those ideas are pretty foreign to me. We don’t naturally have bunnies in the Philippines and we’ve been able to celebrate Easter just fine. As to the eggs, they don’t actually have a central role in our celebration except to mimick what we’ve seen on TV as children like the easter egg hunts. But I’ve never participated in one and I’ve been celebrating Easter my whole life. So really, the egg and bunnies don’t represent Easter to Christianity in general.
"Also, I’d really like to see this conclusive evidence that Easter was adopted from pagan religions. I want real evidence. Not things that look like evidence but are not."
Wow, the irony of a theist demanding evidence PMSL!!!!
Ohh err...what shall we do what shall we do!
Evidence of the pagan origin of Easter? The name Easter!
“Bede wrote that the month in which English Christians were celebrating the resurrection of Jesus had been called Eosturmonath in Old English, referring to a goddess named Eostre. And even though Christians had begun affirming the Christian meaning of the celebration, they continued to use the name of the goddess to designate the season.”
This is why we celebrate Easter on the first full moon after the Vernal Equinox and not on a set date.
Interesting you bring up the name, Easter is the english name. In German it's Ostern. The parallel seems to hold up. But we go to France, Italy, Spain Portugal, you get something different. Spanish - Pascua. Italian and Catalan - Pasqua, Portuguese - Páscoa. Romanian - Paşti. In Dutch, Pasen. In the North Germanic languages, påske (Danish and Norwegian), påsk (Swedish), páskar (Icelandic) and páskir (Faeroese).
All of these signify even more that Easter as we know it, draws more heavily from the Hebrew Pesach or the Jewish Passover than any other pagan celebration. the link you provided actually mentions this in passing. I can't recall if it was Eostre but I believe this 8th century document is all we have mentioning this goddess so really, we know next to nothing about her or if she still had a following even back then in the 8th century when this document was written.
Just like we have days of the week named after greek/roman gods, and months named after Caesars, it doesn't follow anymore that we still believe in these things.
"We" don't believe in Yahweh or Jesus either!
So, while Jews celebrate Passover, pagans and atheists celebrate spring, Christians try to monopolize Easter like they do December 25th.
"Easter as we know it, draws more heavily from the Hebrew Pesach or the Jewish Passover than any other pagan celebration." correct but we were discussing origins.And the days chosen for the Christian celebration are these of the pagan festivals because they wee already a festival. The church just took them over just like in the Phillipines.
Also Eostre ( in Bede) refers not to the goddess but to a particular time of year. Google is not your friend.
I love that you are happy to display your complete lack of knowledge on this forum:
Monday = Moon day
Tuesday = Tyr's day (Norse)
Wednesday = Woden's day (Norse)
Thursday = Thor's day (Norse)
Friday = Freya's day Norse)
Saturday = Saturns day! ( yay the ONE roman Day)
Sunday = oh come on you need me for this?
We have only two months of the year named after Caesars, July ( Julius) and August (Augustus) the rest are either numbers (Oct, Nov Dec, Sept) or named after gods
Februarius ( day of purification held on 15th)
So...your point again? Do try and get something right.
Every society pre christianity recognised and celebrated the equinox. Bunnies and eggs are the Northern European manifestations of earlier fertility rituals that predate the church by thousands of years.
"Very likely Filipinos adapted p r e -Hispanic rituals to fit Spanish Roman Catholic colonial demands. Filipinos often did this. An ancient Filipino fertility rite, for instance, probably survives in the Obando fiesta though today it passes simply for a Roman Catholic festival. The traditional dance steps seem to pre-date the arrival of Spanish missionaries. The procession of a fiesta in Laguna, southeast of Manila, includes dancers who crouch, shake their shoulders, and imitate handicapped people. It is thought the practice goes back to the distant past when handicapped people looked for healing from priestess healers.
Early in the Spanish period (1565-1898), existing folk rituals seem often to have been combined with what the missionaries were trying to teach. According to Roman Catholic scholars, after some three hundred years of Spanish presence in the Philippines, most of the pre-Spanish features of the festivals have faded. The fiestas have become Filipino Roman Catholic feasts"
For the Filipinos whose pre Spanish culuture has been all but destroyed by the interloper Church, this is a good site to cut your teeth JoC.
Then start looking for some truth....
This isn't actually a point of contention, my friend. My very own hometown celebrates Sinulog. The dances you see there don't look at all Christian but all the undertones are and noone, denies that they are Christian. I still do agree that the RCC, as a human institution... composed of humas (lol), will always cling to old traditions.
In fact, we can see in the book of Acts, that the Jewish Christians at the time still preferred to keep the old law (circumcision, not eating pork, etc.). This is simply part of our being human. The RCC, recognizing this, allows the local people to keep their old tradition so long as it does not conflict with Church teaching. Examples of these would be, the use of wedding rings, sinulog, dancing in African churches etc. Now, if a certain practice does conflict with church teaching, the church says that it cannot be done - things like child sacrifice, forcing circumcision on Gentile Christians (as mentioned in Acts), and calling on the dead via necromancy.
The point is the Church hijacked festivals that pre existed all over the world to put their imprint on the conquered people.
Now if you want to prove me wrong on this then you get me the date, corroborated, by independent sources that your prophet died and was resurrected and we will see if they match
No you cant.. The church made it up and it happened to nearly coincide with passover (not every year mind) . Stop chucking red herrings about and put up some facts.
Don't you know that even if we accept the biblical account of the crucifixions date...then why isnt at passover any more? Passover is always on the vernal equinox..yes that worldwide day of celebration of rebirth.
Here you are: In 325CE the Council of Nicaea established that Easter would be held on the first Sunday after the first full moon occurring on or after the vernal equinox. From that point forward, the Easter date depended on the ecclesiastical approximation of March 21 for the vernal equinox.
Easter is delayed by 1 week if the full moon is on Sunday, which decreases the chances of it falling on the same day as the Jewish Passover.
A man made date for a man made festival that supplanted the pagan festivals.
Oh dear. Maybe you should forget Easter and go back to celebrating the resurrection on the proper day like those awful non christian Quartodecimans, a group who celebrated Easter on the day of the full moon..
I am sorry JoC but blind faith does mean you stumble into chasms of your own making.
@Old Man Re: Easter
Honestly, you didn't really expect ol' JoC to actually ACCEPT any of the information you provided, right?
By the way, my wife would probably love to pick your brain about the things you research. She is always reading about stuff like this. I have learned much from her over the past few years.
Yeh I feel real bad about sucking him into that one...NOT!
*giggles uncontrollably imagining JoC cursing his bing search engine*
No probs my friend PM me anytime
I'll take you up on that. From the Biblical account, we know that Jesus died after a Passover (from the Bible). He died the next day. Which was then followed by the Sabbath (again from the Bible). (Luke 23:54). Go on to Chapter 24:1 and you see the women who discovered Christ's empty tomb went on the Sunday. This is why Christians celebrate Holy Thursday (Last Supper, or the day the Passover was to be celebrated), Good Friday (the day he died) and Easter Sunday (the day he rose from the dead). This day of Sunday is also in Matthew 28:1, Mark 16:1, John 20:1. 4 separate accounts.
We also know that the Passover was celebrated on a full moon. Remember, what was more important to the Christians was not the Passover (Holy Thursday). It's Easter and Good Friday. Which is why Christians have the way of calculating the day of easter as you mentioned. It was very important to the Christians to celebrate Easter on the right day (which is actually the driving force for the Gregorian calendar). This means it had to be a Sunday (a day kept holy by the early church) and it had to be a full moon or as close as possible to a full moon.
Again, this is very much apart from any pagan influence. Jewish influence, I can accept.
You contradict yourself
"We also know that the Passover was celebrated on a full moon. Remember, what was more important to the Christians was not the Passover (Holy Thursday). It's Easter and Good Friday. Which is why Christians have the way of calculating the day of easter as you mentioned. It was very important to the Christians to celebrate Easter on the right day (which is actually the driving force for the Gregorian calendar). This means it had to be a Sunday (a day kept holy by the early church) and it had to be a full moon or as close as possible to a full moon."
So why not keep the actual day accurate and celebrate on the Jewish feast of passover? The lunar calendar has not deviated. Your explanation is so convoluted!
The easiest and probably correct explanation is; under Constantine and Tiberius the Sun and Mitrain cults were incorporated into christian liturgy, ritual and celebration. Doesn't the connection between "Sun" day when many Romans throughout the Empire were accustomed to visiting either the Temples of Apollo or Mithras mean anything to you?
That's the reason the dates were changed to fall always on the Day of The Sun.
There's something well worth you looking up. Come back to me when you manage to misinterpret that lot as well.
Yes it's quite ironic how a message from an omniscient deity fragments to reflect local cultures. Although not so funny before secular democracies neutered the power of religions, as people were tortured and murdered by churches for deviations from what they decided a deity thought was "true".
"I’d really like to see this conclusive evidence"
Irony overload. Funny how theists cope with this kind of cognitive dissonance.
"the Cybele cultflourished on today's Vatican Hill. Cybele's lover Attis, was born of a virgin, died and was reborn annually. This spring festival began as a day of blood on Black Friday, rising to a crescendo after three days, in rejoicing over the resurrection. There was violent conflict on Vatican Hill in the early days of Christianity between the Jesus worshippers and pagans who quarrelled over whose God was the true, and whose the imitation. What is interesting to note here is that in the ancient world, wherever you had popular resurrected god myths, Christianity found lots of converts. So, eventually Christianity came to an accommodation with the pagan Spring festival. Although we see no celebration of Easter in the New Testament, early church fathers celebrated it, and today many churches are offering "sunrise services" at Easter – an obvious pagan solar celebration. The date of Easter is not fixed, but instead is governed by the phases of the moon – how pagan is that?"
EOSTRE AND EASTER
"In AD 595, Pope Gregory sent a mission of 40 monks led by a Benedictine called Augustine, prior of St Andrew’s monastery in Rome (and later the first Archbishop of Canterbury), to England with instructions to convert the pagan inhabitants to Christianity. Augustine was advised to allow the outward forms of the old, heathen festivals and beliefs to remain intact, but wherever possible to superimpose Christian ceremonies and philosophy on them."
Eostre and Easter. What are the origins of this Spring festival?
The FieldApril 13, 2017
Today Easter seems an explosion of bunnies and gaudily wrapped chocolate eggs, but these are symbols that pre-date Christianity. Johnny Scott discovers more about this ancient spring festival
The Easter bunny Credit: INTERFOTO / Alamy
Today we may celebrate Easter with hot cross buns, bunnies and egg hunts, but these are all symbols that pre-date Christianity. Eostre and Easter have their roots in the pagan spring festival, a far cry from gaudily wrapped chocolate eggs. Johnny Scott investigates.
The paschal feast is not complete without a tea time treat. Our chocolate, ginger and orange Easter cake is the perfect chocolate fix for the bank holiday weekend. Or if you cannot bear the thought of any more chocolate, basque cake with Easter spices is a seriously squidgy treat.
EOSTRE AND EASTER
In AD 595, Pope Gregory sent a mission of 40 monks led by a Benedictine called Augustine, prior of St Andrew’s monastery in Rome (and later the first Archbishop of Canterbury), to England with instructions to convert the pagan inhabitants to Christianity. Augustine was advised to allow the outward forms of the old, heathen festivals and beliefs to remain intact, but wherever possible to superimpose Christian ceremonies and philosophy on them.
The sheer scale of the task confronting the little band of missionaries was so colossal that, halfway on the long trudge from Rome, they got cold feet and decided to turn back. They were only too aware, leaving seasonal festivals aside, that pagan Britons believed every plant, tree, spring, stream, rock, hill or animal had its own soul and its own guardian deity. Before a tree could be cut down, a stream dammed, a mountain crossed, a spring drunk from or an animal disturbed, the individual guardian spirit had first to be placated. Every aspect of the wind and the weather also had its own god or goddess. Pleas for permission to return were refused and, two years later, the anxious group of monks arrived in Canterbury and began endeavouring to carry out the papal directives.
The Easter cross signifies the Easter festivities.
Pope Gregory’s mandate of conversion through coercion was brilliant in its simplicity: he surmised that the easy-going but deeply superstitious Anglo-Saxon peasants would not object if the seasonal festivals of the pagan calendar were Christianised, provided the ancient celebrations remained basically unchanged. Gradually, the main heathen feasts became days honouring Christ or one of the Christian martyrs, and the Church had plenty of saints in hand, ready for any eventuality. Over several centuries, all the pagan days of weather prediction – at least 40 in the year – were given saints’ names, and the big feast days were converted to Christian festivals."
Now personally I don't have much of a stake in this, it's axiomatic that the roots of superstition are long complex and overlapping. The salient point for me is that there is no more evidence for the Christian superstitions than any of the others.
"Was it coincidence that the "rebirth" of Israel is celebrated on the exact same days as the Vernal Equinox? On the same day that used to be dedicated to Semiramis/Ashira etc?"
- Even if we're going by your coincidence theory. I'm willing to go along with that. I'd still say, a pretty huge chance. We have 365 days in a year (366 during leap years) and according to some sources on here, we have more than a million gods. You're basically asking me what the chances are that Christianity's day for the resurrection happens to match that of another god. That's like asking me to explain why I just so happen to have the same birthday as Marie Curie and David Guetta. If coincidence is all you're basing this one, it's a very weak base.
Actually, he was resurrected on a Sunday. But I think that would be beside the point.
First we need to layout some basic facts about Jesus' life. For purposes of this topic, we shall assume the Jesus indeed existed. It would be senseless for me to start all of these and you’d simply hand wave this away. Second, we cannot dismiss early Christian writings or any ancient writings if we have to limit everything to Roman records although I will bring up a few.
Fact #1 – Jesus was put to death by crucifixion and was buried.
It would be senseless to talk about resurrecting from the dead if the person in question had not yet died. A skeptical scholar John Dominic Crossan in his book, “Jesus: A revolutionary biography” says, “That he was crucified is as sure as anything historical can ever be.”
We look to Tacitus mention of Jesus “… Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, …”.
Josephus, in the Antiquities of the Jews writes, “About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he was one who performed surprising deeds and was a teacher of such people as accept the truth gladly. He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. He was the Christ. And when, upon the accusation of the principal men among us, Pilate had condemned him to a cross, those who had first come to love him did not cease. He appeared to them spending a third day restored to life, for the prophets of God had foretold these things and a thousand other marvels about him. And the tribe of the Christians, so called after him, has still to this day not disappeared.”
Say what you want about this passage. Some would say it was absolutely written by Josephus. Some say it was a total forgery. Some say it was a partial forgery. Majority of scholars tend to the third where Christian interpolators added. It has been agreed the the phrases, “, if indeed one ought to call him a man”, “He was the Christ.”, and “He appeared to them spending a third day restored to life, for the prophets of God had foretold these things and a thousand other marvels about him.” Are indeed interpolations as we have evidence to suggest that Josephus, a Jew, would not write these things down. The rest, however, appears to be genuine.
For more on this, check out:
Fact #2 – His tomb was empty and was found empty by women
It’s easy to make a false claim many years after the fact. Simply claim that someone important found out. In early Christianity, your best bets would’ve been Peter or John or James or any of the apostles. But according to all the gospel accounts, it was women who found Jesus’ tomb empty. During this time, women’s testimonies would’ve been next to worthless. The Jewish Talmud even says as much, “The words of the Torah should be burned rather than entrusted to women.” (Sotah 3:4)
If a central doctrine of Christianity were so important and was made up (1 Cor. 15:14 says this very strongly), why would the gospel writers put them as the first witnesses and having to explain that these women were in fact telling the truth. Also, it would’ve been very easy for the Jewish authorities to disprove the resurrection by simply showing his body.
Let’s look at Matthew 28:11-15 where the gospel author writes that the Jewish leaders of his day believed that Jesus’ body was stolen from the tomb. St. Justin Martyr also says as much (Dialogue with Trypho, Chapter CVIII). Although he is a 2nd century author, it actually shows that even in the second century, the popular belief was that the Christians stole Jesus’ body from the tomb. Call it the case of the missing body but even into the second century, the Jews believed that the tomb was in fact empty.
The Christians claim Jesus rose from the dead. The Jews claimed the Christians stole his body. They both disagree on what happened. What they do agree on is that Jesus’ tomb was empty.
Fact #3 – His disciples preached that Jesus rose from the dead and were willing to die for it.
This is actually where the Jewish claim that his body was stolen would fail. If the Christians had in fact stolen Christ’s body, you wouldn’t expect any of the accomplices to die for this. They would retract or even confess that they did this just to save their skin. Coz really, nobody is willing to die for something they know is a lie. This isn’t to say that people will die for false things. People do, but if you look at these cases, these people actually believe what they claim to believe.
I’d actually use the argument from silence where we have absolutely no evidence that any of the early Christians were part of a conspiracy.
Fact #4 – Peter and the early disciples had experiences with Jesus after his death.
A NT scholar who doesn’t believe in the resurrection, Gerd Ludemann agrees to this. (What really happened to Jesus?). You can see Paul’s writings to check that this was in fact the case. (1 Cor. 15:3-7). He even mentions people who have also claimed as much. While some historians may reject the gospels as being authentic, there’s nearly universal consensus that Corinthians and Galatians are authentically written by Paul.
Gerd Ludemann proposes, however, that the disciples were hallucinating. The problem with this theory is that people normally don’t have hallucinations about the same thing. In Corinthians, Paul claims he was seen by 500 people at one time and even told the Corinthians that some of them were still alive at the time and could be asked about it.
// This part I’m going to inject my own theory but most people take for granted or outright ignore the idea that the NT canon came about organically. Like you’ve mentioned previously, a Gospel of Thomas never made it to the Bible. Many other documents didn’t. This actually came about much more organically than you might think. If a certain document wasn’t reliable, it didn’t gain a following. If it didn’t gain following, it was abandoned. And you can see this in the early Church fathers. They actually debated which books to accept and which ones not to accept. The only part of the NT, which had near universal acceptance, were the 4 gospels. This is why I find the NT books reliable.
Now back to the argument. Theories have been proposed (we’ve tackled a few already) on how to explain all these 4 basic facts about the end of Jesus’ life and the early church.
1. Hallucination theory doesn’t work (as mentioned above)
2. Swoon theory (the theory that Jesus didn’t die) – well, if you saw someone walk out of the grave because he survived his own crucifixion, your first reaction would be to get the guy to a doctor. Not make a religion. But that’s actually very unlikely – In 1986, The American Medical Association has published a paper on ancient records of the crucifixion, and basically said this was in fact, impossible.
3. Conspiracy theory – again mentioned above.
4. Theory #4 – Jesus actually did rise from the dead as his disciples claimed.
You can give other theories but no other theory will sufficiently explain all of these facts we know from history.
If you say, “we don’t even know if Jesus existed” read the parts about Josephus and Tacitus and why they can be relied upon. If you say part of Josephus was a forgery, it doesn’t explain this:
"Was it coincidence that the "rebirth" of Israel is celebrated on the exact same days as the Vernal Equinox? On the same day that used to be dedicated to Semiramis/Ashira etc?
It not a coincidence as you would have seen if you had bothered to read the whole reply. Go back and read it. I clearly state that the Vernal equinox has been celebrated all over the world, from Minoa to current day Colorado thousands of years before your christ supposedly died or the Jews celebrate the killing of countless children.
The Vernal equinox has always been a celebration of birth and rebirth and the death of winter. That the ancient Israelites stole such a celebration for the story of their 'nations' rebirth is as fanciful as saying the Catholic church decided Resurrection day would be celebrated at the same time as the pagan festivals...oh wait....your claim is dismissed.
Do you not see the irony of the Roman Church ensuring that the Jesus figure was resurrected on the same day as Mithras? The SUN day? Sheesh. Give me some crayons I will draw you a picture.
Next: wilful misunderstanding of texts
We have had this discussion before and your assertions are dismissed.
Tacitus was ascribing an historical event and relating what the Jews/christians believed. He made no claim for the existence of a Chrestus. He reported the Jews claims, not asserted a christ existed.
Please stop repeating inaccuracies and partial quotes. The Tacitus argument is dead, over, it is an ex assertion.Please understand this time exactly what Tacitus wrote about 60AD which to him was history! .
Passages from the bible do not prove the bible, How many times does that have to be explained?
Second; the one passage that mentions Jesus in Josephus is a much later insert ( Not forgery, insert) from the Christian period as attested by the greater majority of christian and non christian scholars alike. Only a few die hard christian apologists still holds that line in Josephus to be accurate and contemporary. The second line only mentions a James, we do not know which james or which 'lord' he was talking about. Josephus was talking about the church in Jerusalem. Scholars are still arguing that one.
I am going to start a thread about your 'organic' bible as it is the biggest load of cobblers I have read in years. Apologetics in overdrive.
Once again there is not on skerrick, jot or iota of credible evidence for your Christ, you even celebrate his death and supposed resurrection on a different day every year, how does that work?
I understand you want your faith to be true, but you cannot get away with what you try and do as regards evidence. If you do not understand the lack of evidence even after it has been patiently explained to you several times then you really should just go say your rosary and not try to understand the world.
Let me wave my hand like you do as usual.
Your parallel of Sunday is very shallow an ant couldn’t drown in it. Again, let’s look at the culture that Chrsitianity sprung from (Judaism). Jews had a weekly holy day - the Sabbath. It would naturally follow that Christians would have a weekly holy day. The reason Sunday was chosen was that Sunday was the day Jesus supposedly rose from the dead. Not at all because it was “SUN”-day. The only evidence you have that this was a copied religion is putting together some things which are coincidental.
Had Jesus rose on a Monday, Monday would be the day that Christians worship.
I agree that the Bible shouldn’t be used to “prove” the bible. What I was doing was using the four gospel accounts as separate documents and deriving from them (where they agree) some of the facts from history. Like the claim that women found the tomb empty.
If and when I do cite only one of the gospel accounts, it’s accompanied by another extra Biblical account.
You wave away Josephus as there’s an insert in the text. You forget the second mention he gives Jesus. Josephus is talking about James and referencing him as the brother of Jesus (which one?), the one called the messiah. You can’t wave that away. You also wave away Tacitus because his piece on Jesus doesn’t reference him directly but indirectly as he’s talkig about Christians. But notcie that while he doesn’t need to talk about this “Christus” at all, he does narrate that he was sentenced to death under Pilate. Tacitus had all the possible references available to him so i wouldn’t throw away his mentioning of Jesus as you.
"Your parallel of Sunday is very shallow an ant couldn’t drown in it."
Please try not to be as foolish as every other theist, I think better of you.
The SUN day connection is very obvious as the Romans had a long tradition of various Sun god cults including Apollo and Mithras.
With the adoption of the Christian religion in Rome there had to be compromises with the local religions who still wielded enormous wealth and influence.
Never mind the military power base where, as I pointed out, Mithras had long been popular. Hence some theologists theorise the introduction of St Michael as the soldier angel to placate the legions.
By 325 CE Christianity ( The bishops) had become 100% political as the various churches vied for power and the riches that followed. Remember Constantine was a god emperor but Ceasars did not sleep easily in their beds. It was an exercise in unification of a splintered Rome which had never had a state religion until then saving that of the 'divine' emporer..
You do not celebrate the same day each year for your Messiah's death and Resurrection. Why? The council of Nicea changed it...for what reason. Think carefully.
The whole Passover date was chosen by early writers without a skerrick of evidence for the actual happening. Coincidentally(?) it does coincide with the major Roman, Pagan and Greek celebrations of rebirth and resurrection of several deities which the gospel writers would no doubt have been aware and made the job of the proselytisers a little easier to make Jesus resurrection day the same.
"The Jewish Christian tradition also demanded circumcision. What happened with that? Abandoned for gentile popularity
Similarly the Romans and their provinces didn't think much of the Jewish celebration of the deaths of thousands of first born children, and the habit of Jewish christians to eat and drink the flesh and blood of their god every day. Tacitus does actually report that.
"If and when I do cite only one of the gospel accounts, it’s accompanied by another extra Biblical account."
You cant use the bible written, corrected, added to, re edited translated re translated, corrected and finalised as a text to corroborate itself. Stop trying it on. It may work with the gullible but not with me.
"You wave away Josephus as there’s an insert in the text".
Yes I can, it is the opinion of nearly every sane scholar.*
'You forget the second mention he gives Jesus."
I already answered this, in fact I told you that there is no reference as to which James or which "lord" Josephus was talking about. Scholars are divided as t to whether the "lord" reference was in fact a much later margin note that got erroneously added to the text as Josephus was referring to the leaders of the Temple at Jerusalem.
It means nothing on its own except that a 'James' was a 'leader' of the Temple at Jerusalem in the last quarter of the 1st Century according to Josephus who was writing years after events occurred.
The mention in passing in book 20 of Josephus 'history', of both James and Jesus shows that Josephus did not accept the divinity of Jesus even if he had existed. viz:
"But the younger Ananus who, as we said, received the high priesthood, was of a bold disposition and exceptionally daring; he followed the party of the Sadducees, who are severe in judgment above all the Jews, as we have already shown. As therefore Ananus was of such a disposition, he thought he had now a good opportunity, as Festus was now dead, and Albinus was still on the road; so he assembled a council of judges, and brought before it the brother of Jesus the so-called Christ, whose name was James, together with some others, and having accused them as lawbreakers, he delivered them over to be stoned."*
Again an historian reporting a third party belief. Not accepting it, not saying anything, just what the Jews believed happened some 30 years before. This passage also cast the greatest doubt on the Book 18 reference you love to quote (wrongly, btw) as this passage can be ascribed much more readily as 'pure' Josephus.
*NOTE Josephus was writing at least 40 years after the alleged inconveniencing and resurrection of Jesus. Hardly a contemporary account. The earliest manuscripts of Josephus date back to the 6th century CE ...300 years of copying and re copying, translating and margin errors.
Your 'evidence' even by the most generous allowance is threadbare to the point of transparency.
I am not arguing the toss with you over Tacitus. If you can read the whole Tacitus passage in Latin you can see the reference is to only what the Jewish Christians believe not what Tacitus accepted as truth. He actually says that. THE END OF DISCUSSION unless you can quote in latin that Tacitus says "This I know" at the end of the passage. HINT: He doesn't.
Half assed catholic apologetic web sites, a bit of google and downright lies are no substitute for actual study. Try some.
(Edit: word order changed to make the sense clear in several places, duplicate paragraph deleted)
"Like the claim that women found the tomb empty."
Have you ever thought about why it was women who discovered that the tomb was empty? How did women get such major role in the story when they had barely been mentioned before and after that? What is their significance in that part of the fairy tale? That detail was included for a very specific purpose. Can you guess why?
"Do you not see the irony of the Roman Church ensuring that the Jesus figure was resurrected on the same day as Mithras? The SUN day? Sheesh. Give me some crayons I will draw you a picture."
Yes I've been reading this wondering if the penny will ever drop as well. Put plainly the clumsy acquisition of ancient pagan dates is pretty much what we'd expect to see if this was one human created superstion coercing converts from another.
The idea that a deity with limitless power and knowledge decided the only way it could appease itself over it's created pets using the autonomy it had given them, was to wait silently for approximately 150000 to 200000 years, then take human form in ancient Palestine a couple of thousand years ago to say enough is enough. Have itself tortured to death in the most commonly used capital punishment by a massive global empire. Then, rise from the dead without a shred of credible evidence presented. Then sit back whilst it's followers proceeded to hijack ancient pagan festivals to celebrate this and all on or about the dates of the previous superstion's "holy festivals" as well.
Yet all this is swept aside without question. Whilst JoC demands compelling evidence from its detractors.
Surely any halfway objective rational person must expect a being with limitless power and knowledge to be a little more exacting and methodical if it claims to care what we think? Can any sane person think anyone deserves an eternity of torture for harbouring grave doubts about such a clumsily cobbled together and obviously human story?
As Billy said, we send ourselves to hell.
Really? Does a being with limitless knowledge and power take no responsibility for its shambolic message appearing to be no different in any objective way from every other human superstition then?
I'd fire any human employee that was half as inept as that,m and I know they're fallible evolved mammals.
You could choose on Easter Sunday whatever fancies one. But for me I will celebrate that this Jesus Christ enabled me to get to heaven through his death and resurrection I will always be grateful. You write off sin so easily your obviously not aware of how serious sin is. You show your ignorance on this point. The first time Jesus came here to earth he came humbly peacefully but now when he returns he will come in judgement, And rightfully so!!!!! It sounds silly to you because your not living for GOD you are disregarding the Christian message and lifestyle. The book of Romans says very clearly that peoples hearts will turn cold. That there would be a turning away. So tell me what are you going to do if this is all correct, And not like you call it as silly Will you have enough time to repent and change the way you think and live? I`m surprised that you as a nurse will be so ignorant and arrogant about this life .God is working every day where you work, Sometimes he answers prays and some times things don`t come out as we would like. but that doesn`t mean that God isn`t working in peoples lives .He is very real and very present.
First of all FIG the resurrection never happened. There is no record of it. The part of the bible that talks about resurrection came in 325 ADE. It was a story hijacked from other religions and folk stories not remotely related to the jews or christians.
Secondly "easter is the catholic church hijacking the spring equinox celebration and interjecting their own propaganda to make it "christian" and to further their myth.
No jesus is going to return. No jesus came in the first place. No resurrection ever happened and no jesus crucifixion ever happened.
"No jesus came in the first place. No resurrection ever happened and no jesus crucifixion ever happened."
In the Jewish Babylonian Talmud they brag about how the Jews killed Jesus using five different methods of execution.
"The Talmud — Five Deaths to Jesus
Jesus, as stated in both the Talmud and Jewish Encyclopedia, gets "four legal methods of execution" and is Crucified as well, as a blasphemer of Pharisee Judaism.
Jesus stoned, then "hanged" or crucified, Sanhedrin 43a-45b (Exhibit 46 and Exhibit 48); Sanhedrin 67a (Exhibit 75), where under another phony name (Ben Stada) Jesus is identified as "Jesus of Nazareth." See Jewish Encyclopedia, Exhibit 277 and Exhibit 8."
What the hell mate? You link to a polemic by that poisonous crow Elizabeth Dilling? She has ZERO credibility, an Isolationist, anti feminist, anti semite who dobbed in innocent people as communists during McCarthey...are you fucking kidding me?
"Dilling visited Germany in 1931 and, when she returned in 1938, noted a "great improvement of conditions". She attended Nazi Party meetings, and the German government paid her expenses. She wrote that "The German people under Hitler are contented and happy. ... don't believe the stories you hear that this man has not done a great good for this country."[iii] In 1938, she toured Palestine, where she filmed what she described as Jewish immigrants ruining the country. While touring Spain, then embroiled in the Spanish Civil War, she filmed "Red torture chambers" and burnt-out churches, "ruined by the Reds with the same satanic Jewish glee shown in Russia." She visited Japan, which she viewed as the only Christian nation in Asia, and in 1939, she returned to visit Spain, for a second time." Wikepedia.
Again are you fucking kidding me?
I wonder why then we have Tacitus mentioning Jesus’ being crucified and Josephus mentioning him as well. Both written way before 325 AD.