Easter, Bloody Easter!

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jonthecatholic's picture
As to your first point, Jesus

As to your first point, Jesus knew what he was to do while he’s here on earth. He knew he’d suffer and die, which Christians actually teach. Jesus is fully God and fully man. So hos dying was actual dying. His suffering was actual suffering.

As to your second point about Easter,
Someone on here mentioned why Easter is celebrated when it is celebrated. If Easter was patterned after anything, it was the Jewish Passover. This fact is I believe agreed upon by almost all Christians.

Now, you could make a case for the Jewish Passover being adapted from a pagan culture. I haven’t seen much on that so I’d like to see your take on it.

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ JoC

@ JoC
"This fact is I believe agreed upon by almost all Christians."
Well that is no recommendation. Most Christians seem to have a knack for believing bullshit.

The facts are that Easter or rather the Vernal Equinox ( normally the first full moon after) has been celebrated for thousands of years prior to that late comer "Easter" . Evidence of these festivals has been unearthed at just about every neolithic and pre neolithic site in Europe and the Egyptians celebrated it as well as the Greeks, Persians, Medes and Romans (Under different names and gods). Jewish Passover is a relative latecomer to the celebrations but shares its origins in pre history as the start of the planting/mating/birth season of the year in the Northern Hemisphere. Originally the Equinox was the festival of "Mrs God" (Ashira) according to some studies in the University of of Tel Aviv of the biblical Israelites.. (from memory)

The full moon after the Vernal (Spring Equinox) was seen as a signal for planting in most climates and allowing cattle and sheep onto higher pastures in those areas that had such things. It was also a signal for festivities for humans.

The Christian Easter seems to follow a lot of the Mithriain traditions , which of course can be traced back to at least 1500BCE.

Worth YOU looking that up JoC. I am getting tred of doing your legwork while you just make facetious claims.

Easter was appropriated by the church and combined the pagan and Roman festivals of the Vernal Equinox. Fortuitously for the church every one else alive seemed to celebrate the equinoxes including the Southern Hemisphere( Although that is the AUTUMN equinox) which meant that happily the "christian" festivals melded seamlessly with the far far older native ones.

I await your learned rebuttal...

" Jesus was inconvenienced for your sins"

jonthecatholic's picture
I see what you're saying and

I see what you're saying and all but it does not draw a direct link to how Christians celebrate Easter and why all those previous pagan religions celebrated the equinox. Passover isn't even about the celebration of Spring. It just isn't. When you ask the Jews what the Passover is about, they aren't going to tell you something about the planting season or the mating season. Again, you have failed to provide a direct link between the Jewish Passover to these pagan celebrations aside from maybe the date. As to what is being celebrated, no link.

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ JoC

@ JoC
" No Link"

You are asking me to provide all the research and evidence for you? Seriously? When you cannot post one skerrick of evidence for your resurrected Jesus?

Hers the deal JoC. I am going to answer your 'question' and, quid pro quo, you must answer mine at the bottom of this post.

Thousands of years before your nasty festival the people celebrated the Spring Equinox, That's when Day and Night become equal length: Here's some architectural sites that are built to celebrate and mark the vernal equinox. They are worldwide.

El Castillo, Chichen Itza
El Castillo, also known as the Pyramid of Kukulkán, is the 79-foot pyramid at the center of the ancient Mayan site of Chichen Itza. Built around 1000 AD.

The Mnajdra temples on Malta consist of three structures built over a period of a thousand years beginning around 3600 BC

Angkor Wat
In Cambodia, Angkor Wat was constructed and oriented to interplay with astronomical events throughout the year. A 1976 article in Science detailed the discoveries of a group of University of Michigan researchers who numerically and astronomically analyzed the temple, constructed between 1113 and 1150 AD. On the spring equinox, the researchers wrote, “an observer standing at the southern edge of the first projection on the causeway (just in front of the western entrance gate) can see the sun rise directly over the top of the central tower of Angkor Wat.”

Hovenweep Castle
Hovenweep, situated on what is now the Colorado-Utah border, was built between 1200 and 1300 AD
Hovenweep actually reveals a slight quirk in the solar calendar developed by its builders. According to UCAR, “The equinox port at Hovenweep Castle points to the sunrise azimuth 4 days after the vernal equinox. This is precisely what one would have expected if the equinox azimuth was established by counting and halving the number of days between the winter and summer solstices.

Of course, you know about Stonehenge and the alignment of the stones to observe and celebrate the vernal Equinox.. Access at dawn for each equinox and solstice event, so that druids, pagans, and other early-risers can watch the sun alight the ancient stones. Its quite a sight.

Easter goes back to the springtime ritual instituted by Semiramis following the death of Tammuz, who, according to tradition, was killed by a wild boar. Legend has it that through the power of his mother's tears, Tammuz was "resurrected" in the form of the new vegetation that appeared on the earth.
Ancient Babylonians believed in a fable about an egg that fell into the Euphrates River from heaven and from which Queen Astarte (another name for Ishtar or Semiramis) was "hatched."

The spread of Passover
After the destruction of Jerusalem in 70CE the Jewish Diaspora extended throughout Europe, they brought their religious customs with them. Remember Early Christians celebrated passover as the origin of Christianity was Jewish Only later did the Christian “Resurrection Day' become celebrated and even later “Easter” All of which absorbed various local pagan rituals. They were called in the romance speaking languages not Easter which is peculiarly Anglo Saxon and Germanic (see Bede) but a local version of passover e.g.Pascha/Pacques/Pasqua

"When you ask the Jews what the Passover is about, they aren't going to tell you something about the planting season or the mating season"

Of course not, I made the point that man has celebrated the Vernal Equinox for thousands of years. You can see that the church in the Phillipines (and the World) just took over local fetes and celebrations making them its own. Can you not see that whatever you call it, it is the old celebration of the Equinox, with its fertility symbols, resurrection from winter etc.

Was it coincidence that the "rebirth" of Israel is celebrated on the exact same days as the Vernal Equinox? On the same day that used to be dedicated to Semiramis/Ashira etc?

Then Christianity just took the Resurrection day and plonked it down at the end of Passover as a reference to rebirth. There is your connections and they go back a lot longer than your church traditions.

Now I have done my work..why do you, as a catholic celebrate Easter on those days? You claim your 'saviour' was resurrected on the Monday..now what evidence do you have that those events happened?

By evidence I mean: contemporary accounts, Roman records, independent sightings. Take your time.

(Edited for errors)

jonthecatholic's picture
I'll post my reply at the end

I'll post my reply at the end of this thread.

Sheldon's picture
""This fact is I believe

""This fact is I believe agreed upon by almost all Christians."
Well that is no recommendation. Most Christians seem to have a knack for believing bullshi"

Priceless, I just spat tea all over my desk. That really was funny fair play.

And of course Jo's claim was a common logical fallacy called argumentum ad populum. It doesn't matter how many people believe something, objective evidence is what determines if the claim is valid. The earth was never flat, and was never the centre of the universe, even when most people believed it was .

mykcob4's picture
Yeah, I was raised

Yeah, I was raised trinitarian as well JoC. That doesn't explain why jesus had to ask god to forgive people "for they know not what they do". If jesus was god and god was jesus he would have never had to ask himself anything.

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ Mykcob

@ Mykcob

and why was jesus just left hangin when he asked "why have I forsaken myself?"

Musta made him real cross with himself.

jonthecatholic's picture
That’s actually trinitarian.

That’s actually trinitarian. That’s one person in the trinity talking to another person in the trinity.

algebe's picture
@JoC: Christ is fully God.

@JoC: Christ is fully God.

So when Jesus said, "Father, if thou be willing,remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done", "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" and "“Father into Thy Hands I Commend My Spirit”, was he talking to himself?

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ Algebe You nailed it Bro...

@ Algebe

You nailed it Bro...

jonthecatholic's picture
This is actually the point of

This is actually the point of the trinitarian belief. God is of one substance and one being in three persons. In the cases you’ve mentioned, it’s a case where the persons of the trinity are talking to each other.

Sheldon's picture
"God is of one substance and

"God is of one substance and ***one being "

"where the persons of the trinity are talking to ***each other."

Come on JoC, how much cognitive dissonance can you ignore? It's risible nonsense man...just relax take a deep breath, and then think...

Tin-Man's picture
@Sheldon Re: To JoC - "just

@Sheldon Re: To JoC - "just relax take a deep breath, and then think..."

Sheldon, you might as well ask a fish to breathe outside of the water. From the VERY BEGINNING of the whole shebang, Christians are severely admonished for questioning and thinking critically for themselves. Just ask Adam and Eve (if they existed). From the very first bite of an apple all the way to our modern day society, it has been driven over and over and over into the heads of faithful followers that questioning anything about the bible and "God's words" is one of the most heinous atrocities one can commit as a Christian. I know this, because it took me a large portion of my life to get past that one particular hurdle that stood between me and freedom. And I was not anywhere NEAR as dedicated nor indoctrinated into it all as badly as ol' JoC seems to be. It is a horrible thing, to be sure.

Sheldon's picture
Sadly I fear your

Sadly I fear your observations are spot on, but one can only try. Sadly superstition seems innate in us, but it's not hopeless at least.

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ JoC

@ JoC

"The Christian understanding is that Christ is fully God. "

Tell that to the The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints , Jehovah's Witnesses and the Iglesia ni Cristo, Christadelphians, Christian Scientists, Dawn Bible Students, Living Church of God, Oneness Pentecostals, Assemblies of Yahweh, Israelite Church of God in Jesus Christ, Members Church of God International, Unitarian Universalist Christians, The Way International, The Church of God International and the United Church of God.

So, once again JoC you are not speaking for Christians. All the above are Non trinitarians. So you speak only for you narrow little romanized version. Going back of course, your 'church of peace' had all the Arian 'heretics' massacred and their gospels destroyed, but hey, that's just love and redemption aint it.

Aren't you tired of always being wrong? 'appy Easter!

jonthecatholic's picture
Actually, if the groups you

Actually, if the groups you mentioned do claim to be Christians but in truth, they are not. Many of those you’ve mentioned believe in a form of Arianism which was declared heretical by the early church in the council of Nicaea. So no, they are not Christians although they claim to be.

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ JoC

@ JoC

They think they are christians and YOU are the heretics...what a quandary, who to believe?

Anyway we have established that you don't speak for all christians right?

Nyarlathotep's picture
JoC - Actually, if the groups

JoC - Actually, if the groups you mentioned do claim to be Christians but in truth, they are not. Many of those you’ve mentioned believe in a form of Arianism which was declared heretical by the early church in the council of Nicaea. So no, they are not Christians although they claim to be.

No true Scotsman.

jonthecatholic's picture
It's actually not. Allow me

It's actually not. Allow me to explain a bit further. Christianity is a monotheistic religion. This is not one contested by anyone really. Even atheists know this much about Christians.

Take the mormons. They believe that God the Father was once a man living on another planet which had it's own "god". He was then elevated to God-hood by that God and he started populating the earth. Jesus came about and attained godhood as well. From this narrative, I've already mentioned 3 gods. The Church of Jesus Christ and the Latter Day Saints isn't a monotheistic religion.

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ JoC

@ JoC

"It's actually not. Allow me to explain a bit further. Christianity is a monotheistic religion"
And who in their right mind believes that guff about the god on a planet hey?

Almost as silly as a god that has a holy impregnating spirit part of himself that impregnates a young girl with himself so he can torture and kill himself and then come back as himself again but this time sitting on his own right hand...oh wait....

I think I prefer the planet god one...more reasonable...

(Edited for clarity)

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ JoC

@ JoC

And you are wrong, Christianity with the exceptions I mentioned earlier is Trinitarian religion. Three in One, as opposed to a truly monotheistic religion such as Islam or Judaism.

The difference is that part of the christian god can separate form the godhead, and, retaining all its god powers, come to earth and intervene, acting independently of the godhead. Effectively giving the world and heaven two or 3 gods depending on how many splits you have. That is not by definition monotheism.

In christianity you also have the demi god Archangels, then all the 'ordinary angels' ( who have many godlike powers) then all the saints, carefully ranked in precedence...then again we have Lucifer/Satan an equal of god in some passages of the bible, also Baal another god is mentioned several times, never mind the "no other gods before me command" implying that other gods do actually exist. So monotheistic christianity is really really a furphy.

To call christianity 'monotheistic' is to completely ignore the facts...oh wait, facts do not count , sorry I forgot.

Tin-Man's picture
@JoC Re: "Take the mormons

@JoC Re: "Take the mormons...."

Yeah, you're right. Those guys are just COMPLETELY off their rockers for believing in that blubbering nonsense. It's such a relief to know we have the trinity story in the "true" Christian bible that makes soooooooo much better sense and is totally reasonable and believable. (Oh, wait.....)

Sheldon's picture
Nyarlathotep "No true

Nyarlathotep "No true Scotsman."

JoC "It's actually not."

It absolutely is. Do you think we don't recognise this common logical fallacy? This is the trouble with theists, they spew up paragraphs of woo woo about nothing, and think the poor atheists are flummoxed, but miss the simple facts.

No True Scotsman fallacy

No true Scotsman is a kind of informal fallacy in which one attempts to protect a universal generalisation from counterexamples by changing the definition in an ad hoc fashion to exclude the counterexample.

I'll give you a clue here, it's your failure to come up with a shred of objective evidence to support your deity's existence.

algebe's picture
@JoC: Christianity is a

@JoC: Christianity is a monotheistic religion

Apart from the Trinity, Satan, angels and demons, you've also got the goddess Mary. She keeps popping up in places like Lourdes, Fatima, and Akita. Superstitious believers flock to those places on pilgrimages. How is that different from the oracle tradition of ancient Greece?

Sheldon's picture
No True Scotsman fallacy. Do

No True Scotsman fallacy. Do you people ever wonder why an omniscient omnipotent deity can't get two christians to agree on what the fuck it wants? As far as I can see this involves little more than grown adults arguing over unicorn husbandry.

Randomhero1982's picture
Don't forget the Popular

Don't forget the Popular Peoples Front Of Judea...


Sheldon's picture
"I find this thread painful

"I find this thread painful to read. ....It is... the Christian understanding that God, himself, came down fully knowing everything that would happen. ... the trinity where God is one being in 3 persons."

Not as painful as I find that nonsense, an omniscient deity that takes ghostly form to impregnate a human woman, to give birth to a human version of ....itself. All so it can allow the human form of itself to be tortured, in order to appease "itself" for the crime of two humans it created eating some fruit it told them not to, but put in harms way, along with a nefarious talking snake to tempt them, and which by your definition it must have known would happen. You can't use the special pleading that it knew what would happen to it's human form but had no idea that it's created humans would eat the fruit it placed in easy reach.

The absurdity of a trinity being claimed to be a monotheism speaks for itself of course..

Since when does perfectly merciful being require a human be tortured to death for something as innocuous as eating some forbidden fruit, Jesus wept religion is fucked up.

David Killens's picture
So ... Christ is also god?

So ... Christ is also god?

So this god laid a trap where everyone was guilty of sin. And to find a way out of the sin trap god (in the form of Jesus) allowed himself to be murdered, so he could later perform a parlor trick by coming back to life and flying off into the blue sky?

So this Jesus did not really die, nor did he face death because he was god and knew that after the weekend he was going to bring Jesus back to life?

By your own admission you prove that Jesus did not die for our sins because he knew he was not going to die.

jonthecatholic's picture
You’re simply adding layers

You’re simply adding layers upon layers of things to twist what I just said.


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