The Omnipotence paradox.

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xenoview's picture
So god can't do evil? What

So god can't do evil? What was the flood, if not evil? Sodom and Gomorrah Destroyed, that wasn't evil? Lot's wife turn to a pillar of salt for looking back, that's not evil?

RedleT's picture
That was what is called in

That was what is called in philosophy material evil. When I shoot some one in self defense I commit a material evil but not a moral evil and in that circumstance it is a good thing

xenoview's picture
Flooding the world was an act

Flooding the world was an act of evil. The flood would have killed innocent people. Destroying Sodom and Gomorrah was an evil act. Their were innocent people in both cities. Turning Lot's wife to salt was an evil act, all she did was look back. Your blowing smoke out your ass with the material evil crap. Evil is evil, wether it's material or moral. According to your bible your god is an immoral mass murder. Take the time to read your bible, start from the beginning and keep notes when your god commits or commands evil.

RedleT's picture
Ok so at best you disprove

Ok so at best you disprove the God of the Bible, but not the God of philosophy which I argue I know by reason. I don't have the time or patience to argue every single objection you come up with after I answer your previous ones. God is God. He owes nothing to us, not even our live's. If those people were innocent, then God would reward them in the next life.

xenoview's picture
Oh the god of philosophy is

Oh the god of philosophy is not the same god as the bible? What do you mean by next life? Can you prove the god of philosophy is real? If you can't answer my questions I understand.

RedleT's picture
I believe they are the same

I believe they are the same but one I know through reason and the other through revelation. Heaven hell or purgatory. Yes, but it's heavy lifting and I can't make a horse drink and all that jazz.

xenoview's picture
So your really saying you can

So your really saying you can't prove your god is real. If you could prove a god is real, then you have to figure out which god it is that humans worship.

Randomhero1982's picture
God cannot do moral evil?

God cannot do moral evil?

Now I will offer a rebuttal on this on the premise that the invisible sky fairy exsists...

1. The Flood (Noah's Ark) this was a global event that killed all humans apart from the 8 I believe on the ark... hardly an act of kindness?!

2. God helps the men of Judah kill 500,000 of their fellow Israelites.

3. God slaughters all Egyptian firstborn.
In Exodus 12:29, slaughters all Egyptian firstborn children and cattle because their king was apparently stubborn.

4. God kills 14,000 people for complaining that God keeps killing them.
In Numbers 16:41-49, the Israelites complain that God is killing too many of them. So, God sends a plague that kills 14,000 more of them!!!

5. Skim through your bible for genocide after genocide...

6. In Genesis 19:24, God kills everyone in Sodom and Gomorrah with fire from the sky. Then God kills Lot’s wife for looking back at her burning home.

This is but just a few of the deeply immoral acts of the Christian god... and most other mainstream gods are the same.


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RedleT's picture
Again, I could defend the

Again, I could defend the Bible in each one of these cases but I don't need to. At best you disprove the God of the Bible but not the God of philosophy. Really this belongs in another thread and you only bring it up because I have shown that it is not logically inconsistent for God to be all powerful, when properly understood.

RedleT's picture
Tell you what, if you admit

Tell you what, if you admit that I have successfully defended God's omnipotence, then I will let you choose one example from the Bible of God being evil and I will attempt to refute it. If you are going to move the goal post, I won't attempt to score until you admit what you have done.

xenoview's picture
No you have not defended gods

No you have not defended gods omnipotence. First you have to prove a god is real, then you have to figure out which god it is, because humans worship so many gods.

RedleT's picture
Again, I haven't tried to

Again, I haven't tried to prove that it is so but only that it is not a self defeating idea or inconsistent.

xenoview's picture
You know that you cannot

You know that you cannot prove a god is real. Even if you did prove a god is real, which requires testable evidence, that will pass peer review. After passing peer review, you still have to figure out which god it is that humans worship.

RedleT's picture
Um not everything has to be

Um not everything has to be testable or peer reviewed. Certainly others can and should check my argument to make sure they are sound. You are basically trying to claim everything most be proved or tested with the scientific method, but there's one problem. You cannot verify the scientific method with itself and there are plenty of other things it cannot test well or is not needed so why does a proof for God need to be run by the scientific method?

LogicFTW's picture
Claims presented without

Claims presented without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

Simple. Basic. Logic. We all learned it when we were ~5 we just choose to suddenly give this religion/god concept a pass on this basic rule because our parents/peers told/brainwashed us to.

xenoview's picture
So your saying that your god

So your saying that your god can't be tested or peer reviewed? Why does your god hide from us? I'm sure there are lots of things science can't test for right now, because we haven't developed the technology yet.

MatthewMcG's picture
I think that this paradox can

I think that this paradox can be continued onwards: if an omnipotent god did exist that means he could will himself to cease existing, he could create gods more powerful than himself and he could also will to have never existed ever (if he can do anything he can totally erase himself from all time). With this I quote the Bible itself: (seeing that the omnipotent being that is being discussed is the Judeo-Christian god) Matthew 19:26 Jesus looked at him and said, "With man this is impossible, but with god all things are possible." If god really has existed for eternity and will exist for eternity then that means all things that can happen will and have happened according to Christian belief. Although they don't agree with the all things have happened. But if a god has existed forever than that god has done all the things I listed; that god has committed suicide and has ceased existing.

Peripatetic's picture
Theists define god as the

Theists define god as the necessary being/existent, which means that he is not susceptible to nothingness, for otherwise then he would have been Contingent not necessary. and that applies to creating another god, if a god is created then he is not a god at all, he's a contingent being just like you.

and what do you mean by 'more powerful than himself'? god has power over everything, so what would be left for the other, allegedly, god to have power over in order to make him surpass the other god?

even if you say that one would have power over the other, that would mean that one of them is dependent on the other, and dependency denotes contingency.

xenoview's picture
So you place human

So you place human limitations on your god. Your saying that god couldn't create another god of lesser, equal, or greater power? I would guess that your god is not all powerful then.

WilfDisney's picture
This sort of question is a

This sort of question is a fallacy.

You cannot ask , 'Is god omnipotent' then add a condition that would mean the deity in question is not omnipotent because that negates the original question thus making it a fallacy.

That would be the same as asking, 'Is god omnipotent if he's not?'.

You can see, this is not the best kind of question to be asking.


Randomhero1982's picture
It's paradox designed to show

It's paradox designed to show the flaws in theology in that the goal posts are changed dramatically every single time by theists.

This thread has gone way off topic, but to touch on the original main points...

The claim that God is omnipotent is a logical fallacy in itself, and it breaks all laws of logic especially in that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

Therefore the paradox... it's an absurd paradox for an absurd position in that of thinking a god is omnipotent.

The next argument proposed by theists to contest this was that a god can only do what is rational and logical... which again is absurd!

What is more likely, the laws of nature are suspended for one off moments for a god to work miracles or that perhaps a few people told some lies over two thousand years ago.

And no ox, you haven't even got remotely close to defeating the question.

And If you can defend the bible on any of those counts then you are as morally deficient as your holy book.

Because for me, if I was a god I would not do any of those things in the bible that I listed, I would not condemn those that disbelieve due to a ridiculous lack of evidence... I'd forgive! That is the moral thing to do!

xenoview's picture

Sorry to drag the topic off OP.

Randomhero1982's picture
Xenoview - You have actually

Xenoview - You have actually raised some very strong points, so thank you!

They are points I have tried to make over and over but it's essentially like banging your head against brick wall.

xenoview's picture
Sometimes you have to bang

Sometimes you have to bang your head listing to the right music. I have questions that theist have yet to answer.

Randomhero1982's picture
Likewise for myself,

Likewise for myself,

Other then claims to have 'phiosophicaly' answered them....

You have to tip your hat to apologists, they've done well to muddy the waters on debates to make it impossible to answer.

There is a difference between what is omnipotence and how one interprets what omnipotence is from their perspective...

xenoview's picture
It comes down to just to

It comes down to just two answers, either god is all powerful(and can do anything), or god is just powerful(and can't do everything).

RedleT's picture
Basically atheists on this

Basically atheists on this post have taken the phrase God is all powerful and have defined it in a way contrary to what theists would. Then, they have argued against it and shown that it is absurd. Just one problem. We don't define it the same way you do so you are attacking a straw man. At best, you have shown that all powerful isn't the best phrase to use, but you haven't disproved our concept of an all powerful God.

Nyarlathotep's picture
Dumb Ox - We don't define it

Dumb Ox - We don't define it the same way you do so you are attacking a straw man.

You have shown that you don't define it that way. However; I did show that other theists on the forums do in fact define it that way. This isn't a definition we made up; it is one your fellow theists have been shoving down our throats our entire lives. It is not a strawman.

RedleT's picture
Okay, is this just one poster

Okay, is this just one poster or is this a major school of Christian of theistic thought?

Nyarlathotep's picture
Jesus - ...with God all

Jesus - ...with God all things are possible.

But seriously, I already explained to you; when you first called it a strawman; that this is what we've been told our whole lives from believers. If you don't agree with what they tell us, that is fine. I didn't attribute the belief to you; yet you continue to label it a strawman, it isn't.


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