A question for all theists
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You are a very good thinker :) I enjoy talking with you. I'll respond in a point by point manner to make it easier:
1a) "The account of the resurrection only exists in the bible, with no external contemporary sources"
That is simply not true. Dozens of people wrote about Jesus' life or Resurrection.
http://faithbibleministriesblog.com/2012/09/22/apologetics-part-1-extern...
The life and ministry of Jesus has been written about by dozens of external authors... which dismisses what you say next:
1b) "Don't be too offended, though, I also don't spend a lot of time demolishing any stories about Zeus or Odin either."
Zeus and Odin have none of the credibility of Jesus. You would not be taken seriously by historical scholars if you compared the historical Jesus with those two. Jesus was a historical figure and was written about as such by believers and non-believers alike. Zeus and Odin were legends, and written about as such by believers and non-believers alike.
1c) "Except that they don't actually agree, some grant that he existed, few grant that he was actually resurrected."
Some? My friend, the VAST majority of scholars agree throughout the ages agree he existed... it's only those on the far left of scholarship that doubt it.
Few? Yes, I'm not saying that these scholars agree Jesus rose again (otherwise they would be Christians), but that they agree with many non-supernatural details that the Gospels say happened.
2) For instance, A) most scholars agree that the disciples BELIEVED they had seen the risen Jesus (Now, that's not saying these scholars agreed He rose... but just that His disciples believed they had seen the risen Jesus).
B) Most scholars agree that, somehow, Jesus' tomb was empty a few days after his death. Again, this isn't saying they believe He rose again.
C) Most scholars agree that James and Paul, skeptics of Christianity, were converted because they THOUGHT they had seen the risen Jesus.
Etc. Etc.
So when you come up with a theory to explain the Resurrection, you have to come up with a theory to explain ALL the physical facts most historical scholars believe happened. That's how historical theories work.
For instance, many people love the hallucination theory. All the disciples "saw" Him because, in their great anguish and weak mental state, they hallucinated Him. However, this theory can't explain "C"... hallucinations aren't going to work on hardened skeptics. The hallucination theory fails for that reason and another (simply the fact that group hallucinations can't happen).
You give a link that details the famed "swoon theory". Problem with this theory is that it is extremely rare in human beings that are somewhat PERFECTLY FINE. Read what Jesus went through and then ask yourself how likely it is that He only "fainted":
http://www.thenazareneway.com/holy_week/physical_suffering_jesus.htm
Also, let's say He somehow miraculously did survive the Resurrection! What physical state would He be in? He would look terrible and would take months and months (probably years) to recover... would this inspire His previously terrified and cowardly disciples to start a worldwide religion? No! He would look like the beaten, broken man He would be... and that wouldn't inspire anyone the way the disciples clearly were.
3) The difference between Jesus rising from the dead and all the others was that Jesus PREDICTED His resurrection... which takes things up a notch in terms of credibility, obviously. Others rose, but only Jesus predicted He would rise. This wasn't some Nostradamian-like vague musing Jesus muttered... but something very specific (on the third day I will rise again). God knows the future. Only God can do that.
Love talking, as always :)
Ilovequestions - "That is simply not true. Dozens of people wrote about Jesus' life or Resurrection."
Every person on that list you linked was not alive whe the character of Jesus was supposed to be alive, with the exception of Thallus, who never mentions Jesus. So no, what Travis said is true.
"You are a very good thinker :) I enjoy talking with you. I'll respond in a point by point manner to make it easier:"
Good, sounds like a plan, I'm game!
"1a) "The account of the resurrection only exists in the bible, with no external contemporary sources"
That is simply not true. Dozens of people wrote about Jesus' life or Resurrection.
http://faithbibleministriesblog.com/2012/09/22/apologetics-part-1-extern...
The life and ministry of Jesus has been written about by dozens of external authors... which dismisses what you say next:"
Contemporary, it was the word I used, and precisely the word I meant. It means that there was no one, no one, outside the bible who lived at the time Jesus did, that wrote anything about him. Sure, later people(the vast majority Christian) wrote about him, but we also have writings about other religious and mythical figures. That is not even mentioning some of the parts I mentioned, like zombiefest, which you tactfully ignored because it is simply ridiculous.
"1b) "Don't be too offended, though, I also don't spend a lot of time demolishing any stories about Zeus or Odin either."
Zeus and Odin have none of the credibility of Jesus."
Actually, the prevailing theory is that they were likely kings or rulers whose lives and origins were mythologized through oral traditions, just like they believe happened to Jesus.
"You would not be taken seriously by historical scholars if you compared the historical Jesus with those two."
There are scholars doing so this very day, many will point out the bits and pieces of the story that were borrowed nearly verbatim from older myths and religions, taking the teeth out of this argument.
"Jesus was a historical figure and was written about as such by believers and non-believers alike."
Osiris is often written about as the first pharaoh of Egypt, by all sorts of historians, that doesn't mean he actually existed or was the sun of the sky god Geb and Earth god Nut. It doesn't prove he was murdered by his brother Seth(Cain and Abel much?), or that he was brought back to life.
"Zeus and Odin were legends, and written about as such by believers and non-believers alike."
Really, no mainstream historians talk about them as if they were actual kings and rulers who had their lives and origins mythologized by oral traditions after their death? That is utter horsecrap and you know it.
"Some? My friend, the VAST majority of scholars agree throughout the ages agree he existed... it's only those on the far left of scholarship that doubt it."
Yes, some, some of them believe he existed. Most, MOST, don't agree on anything beyond his baptism by John and his Crucifixion. That means that the majority do not take the accounts of his birth, miraculous acts, or even the empty tomb as actual history. The people who make this argument fail to take into account that MOST of modern scholarship in the subject HEAVILY DOUBT most of the necessary claims made about this Jesus, from virgin birth to empty tomb and resurrection.
"Few? Yes, I'm not saying that these scholars agree Jesus rose again (otherwise they would be Christians), but that they agree with many non-supernatural details that the Gospels say happened."
Oh? Spider-Man comics often have real people, places, and events too. I suppose I should start wearing spandex and practicing parkour, then, huh?
"2) For instance, A) most scholars agree that the disciples BELIEVED they had seen the risen Jesus (Now, that's not saying these scholars agreed He rose... but just that His disciples believed they had seen the risen Jesus)."
Actually, most don't make any claims concerning the disciples.
"B) Most scholars agree that, somehow, Jesus' tomb was empty a few days after his death. Again, this isn't saying they believe He rose again."
Actually, MOST scholars don't say much of anything about the tomb story, except that it is problematic and inconsistent.
"C) Most scholars agree that James and Paul, skeptics of Christianity, were converted because they THOUGHT they had seen the risen Jesus."
They agree that these men claim to have seen Jesus, they make no claims about what these men actually thought, as that wouldn't be good practice.
"So when you come up with a theory to explain the Resurrection, you have to come up with a theory to explain ALL the physical facts most historical scholars believe happened. That's how historical theories work."
Given that the only factors that are almost universally accepted are:
1. The story is based, however loosely, on a person.
2. The person influenced by, and likely baptized by, John the Baptist.
3. The person was crucified.
Other than these three, nothing else is really universally accepted. The field is full of disparate scholars promoting conflicting ideas and contradictory narratives.
"For instance, many people love the hallucination theory. All the disciples "saw" Him because, in their great anguish and weak mental state, they hallucinated Him. However, this theory can't explain "C"... hallucinations aren't going to work on hardened skeptics."
I have had hallucinations due to stress and lack of sleep, some of things I don't believe in, and if I were a little less educated and put more stock in visions I probably would have started believing.
"The hallucination theory fails for that reason and another (simply the fact that group hallucinations can't happen)."
A. What about large groups who claim to see the Hindu pantheon then? Were they actually seeing their gods? Or, where these stories made up from a whole bunch of individual hallucinations? Or, perhaps, is it possible they were experiencing some from of collective delusion or mass hysteria? How about all the groups of people that have seen monsters, aliens, faeries and other such things? Where they lying or did they actually see it? It is much simpler, and by far more reasonable to assume, that sometimes groups can have such experiences.
B. I am surprised you claim to know, as fact, something which even the greatest experts in the field would argue with you about.
"You give a link that details the famed "swoon theory"."
I will assume you didn't actually read it then, because there is a marked difference between "swooning" and actually dying. This phenomenon chronicles people who have actually died, and auto resuscitated later, in some cases well after being pronounced dead.
"Problem with this theory is that it is extremely rare in human beings that are somewhat PERFECTLY FINE."
Sure, it happens less than resurrection in the bible, as the bible depicts people popping back to life like pop tarts.
"Read what Jesus went through and then ask yourself how likely it is that He only "fainted":
If you read what was actually written, you would notice that it wasn't about fainting, these people DIED.
"http://www.thenazareneway.com/holy_week/physical_suffering_jesus.htm"
Another part that isn't universally accepted by scholarship at all.
"Also, let's say He somehow miraculously did survive the Resurrection!"
Um, I am going to assume you meant "survive the crucifixion", as this makes little sense. It is somewhat implied, in resurrection, that the person is alive an not actually still dead... Hence, if it was a resurrection, survival of the resurrection is rather implied.
"What physical state would He be in?"
Depends on conditions, how long he was actually dead, and whether or not his heart actually stopped entirely or simply was slowed to the point that it was undetectable. People suffering Fugu(Sp? blowfish poison) poisoning have been known to be thought dead for days, before magically resuscitating to almost full health. Given the story of Jesus, there is actually a physiological condition that puts a persons body into a coma-like state when extreme trauma is suffered, and it can last only days or years. Is this what happened? I don't know, but it is a HELL of a lot MORE likely than what you believe.
"He would look terrible and would take months and months (probably years) to recover... would this inspire His previously terrified and cowardly disciples to start a worldwide religion? No! He would look like the beaten, broken man He would be... and that wouldn't inspire anyone the way the disciples clearly were."
Oh, the old "die for a lie" bit. You should really get better arguments, as people have died for silly things consistently throughout history, even things we know today AREN'T true.
"3) The difference between Jesus rising from the dead and all the others was that Jesus PREDICTED His resurrection..."
*Not universally accepted by scholarship.
"which takes things up a notch in terms of credibility, obviously."
Not really, resurrection was apparently more common than literacy in those days.
"Others rose, but only Jesus predicted He would rise."
Predictions found in the same text that chronicles his death, but no, it isn't possible that people retroactively put in in there for just this purpose!
"This wasn't some Nostradamian-like vague musing Jesus muttered... but something very specific (on the third day I will rise again). God knows the future. Only God can do that."
Oh, really? So I should also believe any other religious figure that predicted their own death and resurrection? You do, of course, realize that he isn't the only god or demigod to make this claim, right?
"Love talking, as always :)"
I can gather that, as if you didn't at least like talking to us a little bit, you probably would have abandoned this place already. Me and a few others aren't social butterflies, I am not a very tactful person, and my bluntness and cynicism often makes me come across as a complete jerk. So, I suppose, I am appreciative of the fact you can actually enjoy our conversations; even though I despair that we will ever agree on the topics that inspire them.
Ressurection??? WHERE IS THE SCIENTIFIC PROOF, AND PHYSICAL EVIDENCE OF THIS RESSURECTION?? What is the EXACT DATE of this Blessed event? Why does the date change every year? Surely an event such as this will have an exact date...just like Christmas, which is also a scam. There is not one biblical writing that tells you to celebrate Christmas, or pinpoints an exact date or time of year of the birth of Christ. Going by what is descibed in the Bible, Christ COULD NOT have been born on Christmas!! Why the mystery when it comes to this? Because, very simply...IT NEVER HAPPENED!!! Of course Christian, and Secular schools agree on certain "physical facts"...(what are they, WHERE are they?) Where is the PROOF that a man who was so severely tortured, and "crucified," rose up from his grave? I repeat, WHERE is the PROOF that a man was killed, and was able to leave his grave?? Do you realize that that is scientifically, biologically, and physiologically IMPOSSIBLE?!! There are things that only theists will regard as "proof" because they are looking for anything to justify something that they are desperate to believe in, but could never have happened!! Just like the "Virgin Mary," whom we are supposed to "believe" was somehow able to get pregnant without...lookout now...having sex!! I'll bet alot of couples who are struggling to have a child would LOVE to know how THAT was possible!!! What "method" was used for that?! Additionally, NOTHING has shown it's presence in over 2000 years. Of course, theists will want to point at a whole host of things that they view as "proof," none of it making any logical sense. But, they WANT to believe this is true, so their minds, it is...when someone WANTS to believe something, no matter how ridiculous, they will believe it, no matter what proof, or science, or logic you can show them. What can you do?? It dosen't mean that it exists!!
Hi reality, I read your post and understand what you are saying because you are right it would be impossible if our Creator wasn't involved. Why are you having a hard time believing that God can raise someone from the dead? Did you know that when He rose again the Jewish leaders were very angry and lied about this event happening? Why do you want to know the exact time Jesus came as a baby? We know He did come, we use B.C. for our calendar. Do you even know why you are so upset about this?
"Did you know that when He rose again the Jewish leaders were very angry and lied about this event happening?"
Do you have some evidence to support this accusation? If it were in fact true, it would serve as evidence for the existence of Jesus of the Christian belief.
C.M. Allen
When the chief priests had met with the elders and devised a plan, they gave the soldiers a large sum of money, telling them, "You are to say, 'His disciples came during the night and stole him away while we were asleep.' If this report gets to the governor, we will satisfy him and keep you out of trouble."So the soldiers took the money and did as they were instructed. And this story has been widely circulated among the Jews to this very day. Matthew 28-12-15
Jesus is alive! He changed my life and I want everyone to know and be saved. Please read the book of John, John was an eyewitness and wrote what happened so that we would believe. If you really want something this world cannot give you, Jesus will find you. He is the only One who says, "All those who are heavy laden come unto Me and I will give rest to your souls." NO religion or man can do this for a person. I tried religion for years and it wore me out! Jesus will give you a life-giving Spirit.
Matthew 28-12-15
Is the same source which invented the Jesus in the fist place.
Let me make it simple:
I am your god and you should worship me.
All the other gods are false gods and were created just to discredit the truth.
There are people out there that will question this fact, but the truth is that i am your god and I am always with you.
Doubting this fact is a sin, and since you were born a sinner, you must repent.
I, with all my mercy will save you from this world of sin as long as you accept me as your savior.
There are other false religions that have similar attributes but I am the true one since I can talk to you in first person.
I also am more powerful then all the other false gods since I can use a computer too and I predict that in the future even today's computers will be obsolete.
YOU are my eyewitness, "NO religion or man can do this for a person."
By your same logic, I should be your god now right?
I'll soon have my book too you know, if you are interested. :)
Jeff, I know that being saved is a miracle. I know that it sounds foolish to those who don't believe but I will pray that God draws you in a personal way that only He can do. I know God loves you and made your fun personality and has a purpose for your life that is beyond what you could ever think or imagine. You, Mr. Jeff, are now in my prayers. :)
I view you as being still enslaved, you are the one that needs saving Ronda.
Watch this please, see how God displays his perfect love and forgiveness.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGkgmU9vG_o
The thing is Jeff, I know Jesus personally. I have had an encounter with God and I would die for Him, I believe in Him with all my heart. I know this is hard for you to believe but He is more real to me than my right hand and I have no fear, I am not worried about the future because I know He has it and nothing can touch me without His approval. I am praying for you and you will see Him intervening in your life since He wants you saved also, you probably don't even believe in prayer but you will see results because He knows how to get our attention and salvation is a miracle, there is no other way to describe it because I know how it sounds but when God touches you, you'll know personally and this is the only way it works! Those who never had a personal encounter but tried to do the rules in the Bible eventually fall away and become ex Christians because it isn't the law that saves us, the law will kill you because it cannot be done, it is His Spirit that lives in a person that makes all the difference! I am going to ask Him to do "whatever it takes" to save your soul because that is the part of you that will live forever not your outside shell. You will see and know for yourself in time. You are in my prayer book starting tonight.
Have you ever asked yourself why different people that have a personal relation ship with the same Jesus, do not agree about practically anything about what Jesus IS, WANTS or DID.
What you think is Jesus is just the GOOD YOU.
You have been mistaking your own conscience with an other person, an imaginary person that always knows you and seem to always agree with you.
Your personal relationship with Jesus is the relationship you have with the self.
Christianity is a brainwashing cult that attacks you psychologically and thus you are unable to distinguish between what you are actually feeling with what you think that feeling is.
Have you ever heard the phrases:
God is within you, you are part of god?
Those are Gnostic christian beliefs which BTW were all eradicated by the christian church in the middle ages.
Ironically they are the best tool Christianity has to control you today, because people died to make the bible available for everybody thus exposing the lies of Christianity and all the contradictions in the book.
Those same concepts do not originate from the book but are actually very old pagan beliefs that were introduced in Christianity when it was being fabricated in the roman period.
A fascist religion created during a fascist roman period.
Do the math yourself and at least make the effort to study your belief and not let men dictate to you what god is or wants.
Jeff, the same God created all of us, we are like snowflakes, we all have different fingerprints and personalities. I love everyone of my friends and they are all unique. Jesus is the only good in me. If Jesus didn't die for me and give me His Holy Spirit I would have done everything opposite of what would have worked because of my sin. His ways are so different than my ways but they work perfectly because He knows how He created me. For instance He says not to lie but I would lie to get out of things or to avoid trouble, this sounded good to me, but since I have repented of my sins, He has given me His Spirit who helps me not lie and now I am known as a woman of my word. This is a good thing. I know that by myself I would not be a woman of my word. I would lie and hope no one would know. So for that alone I know that Jesus is not the good ME, but the good Him inside of me. I know me and so does God but the wonderful thing is, He still loves me and He is changing me more and more into the image I was before sin. The relationship we have is that He rarely agrees with me, because my way is the wrong way to go. There is a way that seems right to me but the way ends in death. So I ask Him which way should I go and He not only tells me, but as I obey Him, He gives me the power through His Spirit to be able to do it and since it works it becomes my new way of living. God gave us a conscience so we are without excuse in many areas but His Spirit is greater than our conscience because our conscience only listens to the highest point we know and it will constantly make a person feel guilty. Many consciences are different depending on how they were raised or what they know and God takes this into account when He says the more you know the more you will be held accountable. God is just. I have studied His Word for years and I know He is real. His Word is perfect and true and I want you to read the book of John with an open heart. The devil has been trying to contradict the word of God since the garden but if it wasn't for God saying that His Word would be kept to all generations, it would have been destroyed by now. God is God and I really want you to know Him for yourself, He is not a man made religion that tells me anything, I know God, He is my Creator, Savior and Friend.
Ronda,
Until you present real, verifiable, testable, repeatable proof for your assertions, what you write is just a very large word salad.
I do not think you are here to debate, rather to proselytize.
She is exactly proselytizing. Which is terribly dishonest for someone who comes to an atheist forum pretending to pose real arguments in defense of theism.
Fortunately for us all, perhaps, god is as difficult to prove as he is to disprove. I'm not sure what would be more terrible: believers faced with irrefutable proof that there is no god, or atheists faced with irrefutable proof that there is.
Anyway, the main distinctions lie in our vastly-differing standards of 'proof' - with what passes for 'proof' being an entirely subjective thing, and changing from person to person. it's wonderful, at least, that we all have being human in common.
"Fortunately for us all, perhaps, god is as difficult to prove as he is to disprove. I'm not sure what would be more terrible: believers faced with irrefutable proof that there is no god, or atheists faced with irrefutable proof that there is."
I, for one, have exactly zero stake in disproving Rhonda's god. She has made an assertion and the burden of proof for that assertion lies squarely on her shoulders. No one has ever produced proof (real proof...testable, verifiable, repeatable, measurable) and Ronda will be no different.
Additionally, why would it be terrible for me, as someone who identifies as atheist, if provided irrefutable proof of a god? You are making an assumption that is in error.
The reason you can't prove god does not exist, is: "you can not prove a sufficiently vague idea wrong" (a paraphrase of Feynman).
You ignored the fact that in Adam and Eve story, god releases a snake in the garden, creates sin, and engineers the situation so he could punish his children.
Then you have the audacity to claim that god is just.
"God created all of us" including sin, devil mass murderers, tsunamis, earthquakes, etc..
The only reason why there is evil in this world is because god planned it that way, even though he could have easily created a world where evil does not exist because he can do everything.
The christian god is an evil god, take which story you like, he always claims he is good, but his actions demonstrate the opposite.
We are judged by our actions not our claims.
Ronda
If your prayers really could get your god to affect someone, wouldn't that mean that person would lose their free will?
Any comments?
----------
Ronda - "You, Mr. Jeff, are now in my prayers."
Ronda - "You are in my prayer book starting tonight."
Now why would you say that?
You obviously want your "target" to be well aware that you will be praying for him. Why?
Jesus said to keep your prayers to yourself, so you obviously don't care about that. What's the angle here?
"I'll Pray For You" - The theists go-to phrase to attempt to belittle others by talking down to them without swearing.
Such immense arrogance, to assume that you have a personal relationship with a god.
What's that?
You'll pray for ME too? Be my guest, the power of positive thinking might actually be of some help for you.
Hi Pragmatic,
I said I would pray for Jeff because I meant it and I have been, God knows my heart. Jesus prays for those who are His it is our responsibility to pray for others. I know God hears my prayers and this isn't arrogance this is a relationship, one that you could have also. God speaks to me as well and He is my Friend. I am not targeting Jeff, the only angle is that I care about his eternal soul. Jesus never told me that I couldn't tell people that I would pray for them. Why would you say that? If you want I will pray for you too because I care for your eternal soul as well. I don't know your name but I know God does and He loves you.
I said "Jesus said to keep your prayers to yourself".
Matthew 6:
“5 And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. 7 And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. 8 Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him."
To run around and openly declare to everyone that you will pray for them, is not keeping it to yourself. Anyway, offering to pray for someone who does not believe, is often perceived as very disrespectful and condescending.
Your behaviour is such a cliché of a Christian, that I suspected you as a troll. Complete lack of understanding for those who do not share your beliefs.
In any case, please stop proselytizing.
If you actually hear Jesus and God talking to you, I strongly recommend you start taking your prescribed medication again.
I am not praying on the street corner, I am praying for Jeff at home.
And telling us all about it...
I would just add, telling us about it on a thread that will probably get 100's or 1000's of views...
Exactly.
Ronda, you repeatedly announce that you are going to pray, on a public forum on the internet.
And I repeat:
"offering to pray for someone who does not believe, is often perceived as very disrespectful and condescending."
Oh sorry Pragmatic, I missed your first question--If your prayers really could get your god to affect someone, wouldn't that mean that person would lose their free will? Any comments?
We have our freewills until we die, after we die the "tree" will lie where it fell. What prayer is is my requests and thanksgiving to God. I will give you an example. Dear Heavenly Father, Thank You that You love me and have given me full access to speak to You at anytime because of Jesus. I am asking that You will get Jeff's attention, he doesn't believe that You exist and I know You can show him otherwise in a way that would be personal to him. You said to pray for those who don't know You, You said the god of this world has blinded their eyes so that they cannot see the truth. I pray that you will rebuke the enemy and open his eyes so he can see clearly. I know You are not willing that any perish without You. I pray You will intervene and save his soul. In Jesus Name, Amen Pragmatic, This is an example of a prayer I pray to God. God created us for friendship and prayer is talking to God.
Hi Ronda...BECAUSE ITS ALL A SCAM...AND PEOPLE HAVE BEEN, AND ARE STILL BEING KILLED FOR IT!!! tHOUSANDS UPON THOUSANDS HAVE BEEN TORTURED AND MURDERED FOR THINGS THAT NEVER EVEN EXISTED,,OR COUILD HAVE HAPPENED...HOW CRAZY IS THAT?!! I am as upset over these things as much as theists like yourself get upset if and when I give my opinion of this...people INSIST and live their lives believing this nonsense, and look at atheiests as if they are mad for interjecting a little common sense about this...oooooh, can't have anyone listening to THAT reason...we must hurry and brainwash the NEXT generation, before it's too late!!
Hi Ilovequestions, I also believe in the resurrection of Jesus! Isn't it great to know that we have the same Spirit inside of us when we die? Thanks for you post.
In defense of Nyarlathotep, I would say that, Yes atheists are out to finish off Christianity, because it is a mind virus which espouses and perpetuates mental slavery via something called The Resurrection, whatever that means. So I think many atheists do not approach the Resurrection (which never happened, as the Bible asserts it) because it is still caught up in the mystery which shrouds the majority of the meanings of the New Testament.
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