Questions for Christians

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LogicFTW's picture
Okay your definition of

Okay your definition of morality/morales so far:

morals and ethics are two views which run opposite each other

You say moral is a view and is the opposite of ethics.

Morals are from a creator

You contradict your earlier statement about morals being a view, morals is not a view, they are from the creator.

What is moral is what is true

So moral is another word for "true"? You said it was the opposite of ethics, so ethics is "not true" with your statement earlier about morals being the opposite of ethics?

secularism would have moral to be fair.

You butchered that sentence, I can only assume you mean: secularism would have *to have* morals to be fair. If that is what you are saying you are making a very bold assertion with zero evidence. Based on your previous definition of morals you are saying secularism must contain true and must be from the creator. Even though the definition of secularism is the rejection of religious faith and the separation of church and state. You want to contradict the very definition of secularism based on how you so far defined morals with your changes of definition from one post to another written ~90 minutes later.

Therefore your definition of what is moral is certainly not moral but only ethical

Now you are saying morals and ethics are not opposites, just different. If you felt they were opposites you would of stated that when attempting to point out why your definition of morals is different than a commonly accepted dictionary definition of morals.

there is no dissent within the air in light of morality

So morals definition by your previous statements are different from ethics, is another word for true, and is from the creator. Since your creator does not come forward and prove his/her existence we just have to assume your unproven god created morals has no dissent.

My rainbow farting unicorn has a set of morals that says: "fuck your made up god's morals." My rainbow farting unicorn moral code has just as much evidence and proof as yours. I would call that dissent within the air in light of morality...

Also, don't think I havent noticed you avoided responding to my earlier post... Perhaps because you do not have a suitable non insane retort to some of the points I made?

Dtsellers's picture
If I were to ask you to

If I were to ask you to create for me a picture to express a thought, you would inevitably use thin and broad strokes, light and dark shades in order that your idea be recognized. You would in your creation implement moral laws. Not mystic laws in order to hide your intent.

If your picture be true, it must share an association with all observers in order that they, by law, recognize your meaning.

A poet who has expressed a truth which is found in all men is said to have reached poetic immortality.

That morality is a view is indeed true. Just as ethics are found within the ideas of man. Each take a particular direction.

As to your prior post, I'm sorry I missed it, ill certainly go back and consider it.

xenoview's picture

You speak of morals coming from god? Do you have any testable evidence your god is real?

Dtsellers's picture
The laws within creation

The laws within creation express both his power and grace. ( Romans 1:20)

When man comes upon a flower within a field, he may at first be distracted by its abstract shapes or motley colors. He may indeed isolate his vision to the pleasure the flower brings to him alone. But over time he begins to recognize an ever more infinite relationship. One of belonging where such individual aspects fade away and the heavy chains of causation grow ever silent within the minds of man. He comes to realize that the flower is a part of a spiritual whole, that the seed must struggle to sprout, its stem battered by heavy rain and wind must bring forth blossom to bloom, give up its fresh scent to the air and fruit to the very soil in which it took root. If one thing be ignored, one measure be out of time, the beauty of the field would be desert before long.

Man thus comes to realize life as soulful, that even though causation demands of him at one end of his mind to be enslaved, but through beauty he recognizes his freedom, his emancipation from simple causation into the light and air of an infinite morality. This brings him not the happiness of individuality, or objectivity, but the joy of realizing himself within the grandest of unity in all things moral, bringing him comfort and peace.

Is this evidence of a creation? Billions upon billions of men who have come to realize their soul would certainly claim so.

Nyarlathotep's picture
Dtsellers - Is this evidence

Dtsellers - Is this evidence of a creation? Billions upon billions of men who have come to realize their soul would certainly claim so.

argumentum ad populum

Dtsellers's picture
This could be said of any

This could be said of any Soulful expression.

Nyarlathotep's picture

Dtsellers - This could be said of any Soulful expression.

Well I got no idea what a "Soulful expression" is; but if that is the case I wouldn't base an argument on it.

Dtsellers's picture
If you ever catch me arguing

If you ever catch me arguing please let me know :-)

But if one truly didn't know how could he argue against it?

LogicFTW's picture
What about the billions upon

What about the billions upon billions more people (the majority of all people that ever lived,) that never had a chance to know the christian god because they were born at the wrong time and/or the wrong place?

What about the 100's of millions of babies over the last 2 milleniums that died at birth or before they were old enough to possibly understand the concept of any god? The severely mentally handicapped, the millions born deaf that did not have access to the written word or the relatively new invention of sign language?

Dtsellers's picture
While I certainly understand

While I certainly understand ones logical conclusions as to certain doctrines, Christianity is a discipline. When we treat scripture as dead things, dusty artifacts of the rantings of ancient men, we lose sight of the promise within the practice. The best sermons are lived, not preached.

This being said, all who have been raised in love know his voice.

LogicFTW's picture
If all you are saying there

If all you are saying there is some sort of being/thing you like to call god, that is manifestation of all things good and beautiful, that all people that look for good things and do good things can relate to this god, that's not bad sentiment or definition for god. We can toss all the rubbish about worship, rules, books, etc, and just use the word god interchangeably with the word good, love etc.

I still think such an entity is highly unlikely. But I also think such an idea is a shit ton better than what all the major religions go on and on about.

My guess is that you do not reject all religions like this, but instead you are trying to make this whole god idea sound a whole lot better than what you actually practice and believe. You believe that your particular religion segment is the correct one and embrace the ideas of your particular religion. You can't agree with all religions, they are not compatible on key points, water and oil.

xenoview's picture

Your best evidence for a god is a flower? Your description of a flower growing is just nature taking it's due course, the flower grows from a seed without any help from a god. Prove your god is all things morale.

Dtsellers's picture
Smiles. Partly. The evidence

Smiles. Partly. The evidence is in the relationship of beauty within the human mind which separates us from Beasts. (I.e. soul)

LogicFTW's picture
Prove the soul :) You cant :)

Prove the soul :)

You cant :)

xenoview's picture
Humans are still just animals

Humans are still just animals, mammals to be exact. So we have a higher intelligence that most other animals do. No god is required for human intelligence. Still waiting for testable evidence any god exist.

mykcob4's picture

1st of all prove your god.
2nd please select which bible you are using as the reference as there are many and all have been highly politically edited.
3rd prove that the bible that you select is stating fact instead of hearsay and mere fable.

The fact is that morality and ethics ARE the same things and both are constructs of society. We have hashed this issue out so many times on this forum it isn't even funny. I have proven it to you once on this thread already but you just ignore the facts.
You made this arbitrary quote "all who have been raised in love know his voice." Fucking prove it! I say that you are full of shit. The sad thing is that deep in your mind you know that you are full of bullshit. You never heard a voice of a god, not once. No one has!
Christianity is not a discipline it is a propaganda tool and nothing less.
Christians have had 2000 years to prove their god and haven't produced one whit of evidence, nothing, nada, zip, ZERO!
All you do is cherry pick words from "a bible" which one really matters, and claim that it is fact when in reality it isn't even close. You might as well use the novel 'War and Peace'. It is loosely based on fact, is filled with stories and allegory, is rather lengthy. You may as well cherry pick that fictional novel to reference from. Or if you prefer how about 'The Dream of the Red Chamber'. Again all statements apply. Or maybe even the 'Great Gatsby'. They all have the same historical significance as any fucking bible and are a damn sight more factual. At least we can know the authors and what their motivations were, and they didn't plagiarize from other cultures.
I wonder if you even had the courtesy to even investigate with discretion "christianity" before you try foisting it on anyone else. Which is DISHONORABLE BTW!
"Here accept this bullshit!" That is EXACTLY what you and every fucking christian is doing.
You may not believe this but it is a fact. You were born an atheist. You had to be indoctrinated (not educated) to become a christian. You were brainwashed and pressured to become a true christian. Every christian becomes a christian in the same manner. Only when you accept freedom of thought do you realize that this was done to you.
So don't hand me your sanctimonious bullshit, your quotes of scripture from a political propaganda book. Almost every atheist is well versed in their former religion, usually better than the religious that remain under its spell.
You have the right to be stupid and you are well exploiting that right, but you don't have the right to claim that that stupidity is fact without proving it. So FUCKING PROVE IT!

Dtsellers's picture
You've taken on a lot in this

You've taken on a lot in this post ex-marine.

Is there a question you truly wish me to consider or is this simply a profane rant as to the understandings I've expressed?

Nyarlathotep's picture
Dtsellers - ex-marine

Dtsellers - ex-marine

I didn't think there was such a thing.

Dtsellers's picture
Dishonorably discharged

Dishonorably discharged. There are many ex-marines including exposed fake Marines

Such ideas of Honor are not of the Marine Corps, they seem to be more inline with a disgruntled Girl Scout.

mykcob4's picture
What and WHO the fuck are you

What and WHO the fuck are you talking about? Honor? I doubt if you know what the term means.

Honor This is the bedrock of our character. It is the quality that empowers Marines to exemplify the ultimate in ethical and moral behavior: to never lie, cheat, or steal; to abide by an uncompromising code of integrity; to respect human dignity; and to have respect and concern for each other.
What are the Marine Corps Values - Headquarters Marine Corps

I don't that has anything to do with the girl scouts.

Are you a sock puppet? Are you the jerk that got booted off of this forum a couple of months ago simply because you didn't know anything about the first Gulf War?

mykcob4's picture
1 There is no such thing as

1 There is no such thing as an "ex-Marine". I am an inactive Marine. I am a Marine for life.
2 I know you changed your moniker for my benefit but I ignored it. I don't want to get in a superficial pissing war.
3 I asked you three simple questions.
A) Prove your god.
B) Which bible are you referring to?
C) Prove your bible.
Pretty simple.
4 I am not taking on anything. I assure you if I were I could more than handle it. I don't have to prove a god. I don't have to select a bible out of the many versions. I don't have to prove the validity of said bible. It's YOU that has the tall task.

Dtsellers's picture
Sorry son, but you do come

Sorry son, but you do come across as a fake to me. You simply lack the bearing. Perhaps you haven't studied up enough on the corps.

There certainly are ex marines as well as fake marines.

Your a toss up from a true Marines perspective.

I'd lay money down that you never earned the uniform. But that's neither here nor there

To have honor is to have humility and compassion. Your definition and expressions seems to be absent of both.

As to your questions the proof is in yourself.

Look neither here nor there for the Kingdom of Heaven is inside you.

LogicFTW's picture
Switching to ad hominem

Switching to ad hominem attacks instead of answering the questions is very telling.

And you mention humility and compassion in the very next sentence...

Dtsellers's picture
Question was most certainly

Question was most certainly answered.

Calling out fake marines is certainly not an attack. Its a problem throughout society. We call it stolen valor.

A number of websites post instances of fake marines in order to curb such attempts.

Self righteousness is also unbecoming, especially for an atheist. Please take note;)

mykcob4's picture

Typical attacking me because of your own failures. refusing to answer simple questions by attacking the questioner.
I am not a fake. You said please let me know if I ever argue. Well, pal that is all you have done. You lack integrity and honor because instead of answering simple questions you attack the messenger.
A Marine doesn't have to be a christian nor a conservative. Neil Armstrong and John Glenn were both Liberals and honorable Marines. That is beside the point.
Again the questions that YOU are so dishonorably avoiding.
1) Do you have any credible proof of a god?
2) Which bible are you using?
3) Can you verify your bible's validity?
Pretty simple, but you refuse to answer. Instead, you make a punk-ass-cowardly move and make false accusations.

Dtsellers's picture
Much better. Way to lock

Much better. Way to lock yourself down. It's not what we do that makes a marine honorable but what we don't do. his discipline, his metal, his bearing.

My guess is you may have been in the Navy perhaps you simply danced with a few Marines.

1. Soul is proof of God.
2. king james.
3. Validity as to what? If you're referring to scriptures being inspired by God I would refer you to answer 1.

mykcob4's picture

Nope I AM a Marine. You can't handle that fact. You don't believe a Marine is an atheist and a Liberal. Will tough titty boy.
1) "Soul" is not proof of a god. You'd have to prove a soul in the first place.
2) the king james bible is one of the most edited perverted versions of the bible to date.
3) If you don't know how to substantiate a fact then just say so.
Criteria for facts are:
Verification by independent means. Testable proof that comes up with the same results every single time.
So the facts are that you can't provide any proof and instead make false accusations.
You have NO credibility, NO integrity, and NO honor. I'd say your service is in question, not mine.
You have no idea about my discipline, my metal, my bearing.
I guess you are flustered by me cussing. You never heard a Marine cuss before? BTW "Marine" should always be capitalized. If you were a Marine you would do it out of respect, but I guess you aren't so you don't fucking care.
Let's sum up.
1) I asked you to prove your god with REAL evidence.
You responded with no evidence just a bullshit answer about some other MYTH that requires proof.
2) I asked you which bible you are referring to.
Well, I actually got a real answer, and as I suspected you are using a propaganda book that has been politically edited to fit the political agenda of the christian powers in charge.
3) I asked you to substantiate the credibility of the bible you were using, and here is where you just fell off the rails. No real answer, just more hyperbole.
It is fitting in the manner that you attack me personally. You don't know me, don't know a thing about me, but still, you make wild false accusations. It is congruent with your faith. You have no proof but still, make wild claims.
Also if you attempt t o use a well known Marine saying, you'd better damn well get it correct.
The saying ISN'T " It's not what we do that makes a marine honorable but what we don't do."
The saying goes:
It's not what we do that makes us Marines, it is the manner in which we do them.
So go fuck yourself Pvt. Schmucatelli! Peddle your scuttlebutt elsewhere OR realign your bearing and start acting with honor and integrity.

LogicFTW's picture
You say soul is proof of god,

You say soul is proof of god, but you can not define soul or prove soul without using god, there is hardly a more obvious example of circular reasoning.

It is as bad as saying: the bible is proof of god, and god is proof of the bible.

One would hope you use reasoning and logic and evidence based conclusions in most aspects of your life, (you would not still be alive today if you did not use those tools at least some, w/o 24/7 special needs care,) it is time to stop clinging to the warm blankie that is religion, and start applying logic, reasoning and evidence based conclusions on the religion aspects of your life.

Sky Pilot's picture


Did you know that they deleted 14 books from the KJV Bible in 1881?

LogicFTW's picture
Which bible are you referring

Which bible are you referring to?

And must we really define the term proof?

Proof is not : proof is in yourself.

Look neither here nor there for the Kingdom of Heaven is inside you.

If that is the standard of proof, that works for anything, including the rainbow farting unicorn god I just made up.

No rational people do not operate that way. If I said you owe me 1 million dollars, and you say where is your proof, you would not accept: the truth is inside you. You would demand real evidence not pretty words. (Actually if we consider "phrasing" it sounds rather kinky.)

Proof is real, physical, repeatable testable evidence. No god has any, and no holy book I ever read had any. If there was real proof like that it would the biggest news story of all time. It would change all our lives instantly in an enormous profound way far beyond anything any church/religion has achieved ever. We athiest did not miss the boat on this, we just realized the con that religion is.


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