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Bringing you atheist articles and building active godless communities takes hundreds of hours and resources each month. If you find any joy or stimulation at Atheist Republic, please consider becoming a Supporting Member with a recurring monthly donation of your choosing, between a cup of tea and a good dinner.
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So are you saying buying and owning humans as slaves is moral, or are you really trying to deny the bible condones this, and more besides?
I'm saying the dude above me is using the wrong word, producing a rather ironic statement.
Oh like the catholic church condoning the rape of children.
You seem to be ignoring these questions???
Thu, 11/02/2017 - 12:11
Sheldon "I'm confused, if you steal a person, have you not kidnapped them?"
Can you quote in Exodus where it says the slave owners considered this kidnapping?
--------------------------------
So are you saying buying and owning humans as slaves is moral, or are you really trying to deny the bible condones this, and more besides?
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Now what verse in the bible says slave owners considered owning slaves to be stealing and kidnap?
Your questions just don't make sense, and don't relate to the OP.
1. You want me to prove that stealing a person was viewed as kidnapping by Exodus. How? Isn't it obvious? You are asking me to prove that water is wet.
2. I never mentioned morality, and I don't care if you think the Bible condones slavery. I care about the verse I presented in the OP and your thoughts on it.
Levictus 25:35-55 distinguishes between enslaving foreigners against their will (which was permitted) versus enslaving Hebrews against their will (which wasn't, except through descendants of those who owed a debt):
35 ‘If one of your brethren becomes poor, and falls into poverty among you, then you shall help him, like a stranger or a sojourner, that he may live with you. 36 Take no usury or interest from him; but fear your God, that your brother may live with you. 37 You shall not lend him your money for usury, nor lend him your food at a profit. 38 I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, to give you the land of Canaan and to be your God.
The Law Concerning Slavery
39 ‘And if one of your brethren who dwells by you becomes poor, and sells himself to you, you shall not compel him to serve as a slave. 40 As a hired servant and a sojourner he shall be with you, and shall serve you until the Year of Jubilee. 41 And then he shall depart from you—he and his children with him—and shall return to his own family. He shall return to the possession of his fathers. 42 For they are My servants, whom I brought out of the land of Egypt; they shall not be sold as slaves. 43 You shall not rule over him with rigor, but you shall fear your God. 44 And as for your male and female slaves whom you may have—from the nations that are around you, from them you may buy male and female slaves. 45 Moreover you may buy the children of the strangers who dwell among you, and their families who are with you, which they beget in your land; and they shall become your property. 46 And you may take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them as a possession; they shall be your permanent slaves. But regarding your brethren, the children of Israel, you shall not rule over one another with rigor.
47 ‘Now if a sojourner or stranger close to you becomes rich, and one of your brethren who dwells by him becomes poor, and sells himself to the stranger or sojourner close to you, or to a member of the stranger’s family, 48 after he is sold he may be redeemed again. One of his brothers may redeem him; 49 or his uncle or his uncle’s son may redeem him; or anyone who is near of kin to him in his family may redeem him; or if he is able he may redeem himself. 50 Thus he shall reckon with him who bought him: The price of his release shall be according to the number of years, from the year that he was sold to him until the Year of Jubilee; it shall be according to the time of a hired servant for him. 51 If there are still many years remaining, according to them he shall repay the price of his redemption from the money with which he was bought. 52 And if there remain but a few years until the Year of Jubilee, then he shall reckon with him, and according to his years he shall repay him the price of his redemption. 53 He shall be with him as a yearly hired servant, and he shall not rule with rigor over him in your sight. 54 And if he is not redeemed in these years, then he shall be released in the Year of Jubilee—he and his children with him. 55 For the children of Israel are servants to Me; they are My servants whom I brought out of the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God.
Breezy "You want me to prove that stealing a person was viewed as kidnapping by Exodus"
Obviously people who think it's morally acceptable to buy and own people as slaves, and have laws as we see in the bible stating this, don't consider this practice to violate their other laws. That's axiomatic, or they wouldn't own slaves.
It was your assertion that THEIR laws on kidnap as described in the bible negated THEIR laws on slavery. You have stated this repeatedly. Can you please explain why then the bible doesn't support your claim, even in the new testament where slavery is only mentioned to instruct slaves to obey their masters.
These are the facts. I'm not asking you for evidence you can't produce. I'm pointing out you have no such evidence in the hope you'll show a rare glimpse of honesty in your posts.
Breezy "I never mentioned morality, and I don't care if you think the Bible condones slavery. I care about the verse I presented in the OP and your thoughts on it."
I don't care what you think the limits of the discussion should be. I'll post whatever I feel is salient, though your rank dishonesty is quite obviously a barrier to almost everyone taking your posts seriously. The fact your woeful apologetics only work if you stick exclusively to the texts you've cherry picked is not something we've all failed to notice either, though why you keep telling people this isn't clear. Your OP is implying something that by your own admission you can't hope to demonstrate evidence for, and it is roundly contradicted by your own bible, and the best answers you have to this double indictment is to tell everyone you don't want to discuss the texts that contradict your position.
If the bible condemns kidnapping, and endorses slavery in the same passages in Exodus, then it is axiomatic they did not consider slavery to be a violation of their law against kidnap. This is an obvious and logical inference, whereas pretending the bible doesn't endorse slavery with very specific laws is asinine.
If you post whatever you think is salient, don't complain when I ignore it if I think otherwise.
This is great by the way. So you think the laws didn't apply to slaves. Then what exactly does kidnapping and selling ppl apply to? What are ppl being sold to? The circus?
The laws that you quote only applies to Hebrew slaves.... the fact that you ignore this shows your lack of honesty in conversation. Even a fool can win a debate by lying but it takes an educated individual to admit when they are wrong. You can ignore any opposing view you want, but to say others are not addressing your OP is dishonest.
I've been asking you to prove your statement for the past few days, to explain it, to show me where, and you haven't. The ball is on your court and you keep dropping it.
What question do you have??? I do not feel as if this is hard for you to understand, what I won't do is continue to point out that the book of exodus was based on god talking with Moses in order to establish laws for Hebrews... what is still confusing you?
That's not what you've been pointing out. That exodus was god talking with Moses to establish laws for Hebrews? That's it? Great, I agree. One of those laws says you cannot kidnap people and sell them. Again, don't kidnap, don't sell them.
John 6IX Breezy,
Even Yahweh is a slave dealer.
Joel 3:8 (LEB) = "I will sell your sons and your daughters into the hand of the children of Judah, and they will sell them to the Sabeans and to a nation far away, for Yahweh has spoken."
Yes, so now my point is what makes you feel as if this also attributed to heathen slaves?????
Hebrew slaves go free after 6 years, heathen slaves do not.
Men Hebrew slaves go free after 6 years and women do not!
So I ask please show me the verse that explains that your verse is a universal law for all people and not just gods chosen people!
How do you know that Hebrew slaves go free after 6 years and heathen slaves do not? I assume its because those verses specifically say Hebrew slaves go free and foreign slaves do not?
Where does the verse in the OP say Hebrew or Heathen? It doesn't. It makes a universal claim. It also not even talking about slaves directly. It's talking the making of slaves. The people you kidnap are more than likely gonna be regular people, perhaps homeless people, etc
Levictus 25:44-46
And as for your male and female slaves whom you may have—from the nations that are around you, from them you may buy male and female slaves. Moreover you may buy the children of the strangers who dwell among you, and their families who are with you, which they beget in your land; and they shall become your property. And you may take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them as a possession; they shall be your permanent slaves.
Yes those verses do say Hebrews go free and heathens do not.
And to your OP you said and I will paraphrase
The Bible stops the driving factor for slavery.
This is what I am arguing with you about... if the Bible has distinction between Hebrew slaves and non Hebrew slaves, how do you know your verse is UNIVERSAL?????????
Now stop avoiding this and answer it
What do you mean how? Precisely because it doesn't say "this verse applies only to Hebrew slaves only" like it does in other parts for other reasons.
That's how I know the verse isn't talking about cheetahs or water buffalos, Hebrews or Caananites, because if it were it would say cheetahs and water buffalos, Hebrewsor Canaanites. Instead it uses the word "man" a generic and all encompassing word, aka it's universal.
And for the last time, the verse isn't talking about slaves either. I'm sure kidnapping and selling slaves is included, but the verse is about everyone else, regular people, free people, anyone who isn't a slave, and is able to be kidnapped and sold into slavery.
That's my defense, the fact that you're putting words into the verse that aren't there.
So why was there slavery, and why did the bible condone it? This is the part where your subjective cherry picking falls down, and unsurprisingly you either become reticent or disingenuously evasive.
No, this is the very question I want the forum to ask. Because my goal in these past two threads has been to make a clear distinction between the "slavery" of the Bible and the slavery we are all familiar with. I've made two points so far:
1. The Bible prohibits returning runaway slaves and oppressing them.
2. The Bible prohibits kidnapping people and selling them.
Those two verses alone make it clear as day we are talking about something different. So your question is valid, why was there slavery? Better yet, how was there slavery? That is actually the subject of my next thread. That's why I tell you to focus on the OP, because its gonna come back to hunt you in the next thread if you don't. If you think I'm cherry picking, you'll soon see that I picked every cherry on the tree once the series is done.
So far the only argument you've directed at the OP specifically, is that you think Jewish people made an exception to slaves when it comes to all these laws. They don't count as people, so the laws doesn't apply to them. I find that impossible to substantiate, but it at least strikes a blow at the OP if proven true.
You seem to have missed this question...
So why was there slavery, and why did the bible condone it? This is the part where your subjective cherry picking falls down, and unsurprisingly you either become reticent or disingenuously evasive.
I'm not putting words into your verse I'm adding context to your lie
Beautiful, I'm glad you bring up context, because the verses immediately before and after the one in question are about attacking and disrespecting your parents. Then the verses before and after those are concerned with the consequences of killing or hurting someone. Let me guess, those are about Hebrew slaves as well? I'm afraid the context is against you.
“And God spoke all these words: “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.”
Exodus 20:1-2 NIV
http://bible.com/111/exo.20.1-2.niv
No dum dum these are the 613 laws god gave to Hebrews!!! Who did he help out of slavery in Egypt???
The context is against you since you have a very hard time distinguishing between who god is referring to! Your asinine claim that these are universal laws god spoke to all people and that because these laws were for all people slavery cannot be what we think of today is bullshit. You are wrong, your interpretation of your own holy book is off base, go back to studying evolution! At least in that subject you seem to have somewhat of a grasp of basic knowledge!!!
That's your point? That God is talking to the people of Israel?
Pay attention to the things you say. Because your point hasn't been that God is speaking TO Israel. The entire Bible is God talking to Israel, so that's a pointless observation. Instead, you've been saying that the verse is ABOUT Hebrew slaves, and applies only to them:
1. "And again the verse only speaks for HEBREW SLAVES!!!!! It says nothing about the heathen slaves that you buy!"
2. "First things first that passage relates to Hebrew slaves!"
3. "I am explaining to you that the law you are quoting from the Bible was referring to Hebrew slaves."
4. "The laws that you quote only applies to Hebrew slaves.... the fact that you ignore this shows your lack of honesty in conversation."
Speaking to Hebrews, and "referring to Hebrew slaves" are two very different things. I can be speaking to you, but be speaking to you about your wife. So which are you trying to highlight? The people God is speaking to, or the people God is speaking about?
Here;s the claim you made, you seem reluctant to address it so here it is again in synopsis.
1 YOU claimed the laws in Exodus prohibiting kidnap would prohibited slavery.
2. The same laws in Exodus specifically endorse the slavery you claim would not have been allowed.
Whether you see the absurd contradiction or not is as irrelevant as your smoke and mirrors act here. If the laws prohibited slavery then why did the same laws endorse it?
I told you that would be the subject of the next thread. If you're trying to claim there's a contradiction, that means you agree with the OP correct?
That's all I need to know.
"I told you that would be the subject of the next thread.
Your ridiculous obsession with cherry picking the bible into bits that you think you can defend in isolation of the rest is of no interest to me, and as I have told you I'll post what I think is salient.
" If you're trying to claim there's a contradiction, that means you agree with the OP correct?
That's all I need to know.""
Quite clearly I was claiming that your assertion that the biblical law against kidnap contradicted its endorsement of slavery was nonsense. I was not claiming the law of kidnap contradicted the bible's endorsement of slavery as you well know. Do you really think such a dishonest and rather puerile misrepresentation will go unchallenged, or that anyone will be fooled? Well you're wrong about that as well, and here is what I posted again since you have tried to misrepresent my point.
1 YOU claimed the laws in Exodus prohibiting kidnap would prohibited slavery.
2. The same laws in Exodus specifically endorse the slavery you claim would not have been allowed.
The bible endorses slavery, this is an axiomatic fact you'd be better off addressing. Your attempts to disingenuously ignore this and claim other texts negate it only show emphatically how biased you are, and how much of a problem these texts present for your beliefs that you have to go to such lengths to try and ignore them.
As you said the laws on kidnap applied to Hebrews, so this left the Hebrews free to enslave whomever they wished from outside their tribe, and this is fully endorsed in the bible.
No moral being would communicate any moral code that endorsed slavery, in any way.
We can keep going until you lose energy. The law on kidnap and selling didn't apply only to kidnapping Hebrews, if it did it would have said so as it does in other places. The verse does not allow them to kidnap another human being.
Do you disagree with that, if so, what is your reason?
Ok so let me ask you this a different way... so if the law that god told Moses in exodus, if that law was told directly to the Hebrews from the tablets... how did the heathens around them know that law??? If they didn't know that law then would they steal people? If they do steal people and sell them can't the Hebrews according to god buy permanent slaves from said heathens?? If they (Hebrews) buy a stolen person because god didn't get his message to everyone then your op falls apart. The reason your op falls apart is gods failure to get his message to every person!!!
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