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ʝօɦռ 6IX ɮʀɛɛʐʏ's picture
But emphasized in my position

But emphasized in my position is the subject "us". Death is evil, insomuch as it deprives us of life. I do think animal life is important, it just doesn't play a role in this position.

Sheldon's picture
But insentient life does? Why

But insentient life does? Why? Why would you demand a woman use her body against her will to preserve the existence of a blastocyst, but not for a fully formed human?

Also how does your claim justify belief in and worship of a deity that according to the bible murdered indiscriminately, including torturing a baby to death over 7 days, just because he was angry that it had been conceived in an adulterous affair.

ʝօɦռ 6IX ɮʀɛɛʐʏ's picture
I already explained why. Pay

I already explained why. Pay attention.

Sushisnake's picture
@John 6IX

@John 6IX

"I think suicide and thoughts of suicide are indicative of a psychological problem. I don’t think suicide is ever a rational decision. I view it as deeply irrational. Pain, as displeasing as it might be, is still worth experiencing in my opinion."

My son is also in his twenties, and this may well have been his opinion, too, up until a few years ago. His grandfather- my father- was terrified of dementia,  you see. He'd watched it take his mother. Her mind went very, very fast, but her body lingered, in the foetal position, for many, many years. Perhaps it was because she survived Auschwitz. Her body was so used to surviving, it forgot to stop.

My father was so terrified of dementia, he begged us to shoot him in the head if it took him too quickly for him to able to do it himself. He couldn’t bear the indignity of it, the pain and grief-in-limbo he'd inflict on us. When dementia DID take my father, it was very, very quick. When he first went in for a psychological assessment, I could talk to him on the phone. I could cry with him and for him and try to ease ( unsuccessfully) his sheer terror at what was happening to him. Within a week, I couldn't talk to him on the phone anymore, because his mind was gone. My father doesn't recognise myself or my son anymore. We look into the empty eyes of the shell of the man we adored, and we remember what he asked of us. We grieve and we watch my mother grieve and we wonder how many years we will be forced to grieve for a man who isn't dead, but isn't living, either, and would have suicided to prevent this outcome, if only he'd had the time.

My son no longer thinks suicide is wrong, if indeed he ever did. My father- my warm, kind, funny, smart, fantastically entertainingly sarcastic father ( he'd grin the whole time he'd deliver the most biting sarcasm imaginable and it went straight over the recipients' head. It was a joy to witness, if you didn't blow it and laugh out loud ) -  would be devastated to know our memories of who he was are fading, being insidiously replaced with memories of the shell he is now. And the longer he lingers, the more our memories of who he actually was will be overwritten by the dementia. The only consolation is that nowadays, two years in, he's in a happy place in his head. He's fishing or gardening most of the time. He goes through the motions and we recognise them. But it took him over a year to arrive there. Before that, he was stuck in the jungle of Vietnam. We recognised those motions, too, especially my son who's served in Afghanistan.

With respect, John, if you believe life is worth preserving at all costs, you know little of life.

ʝօɦռ 6IX ɮʀɛɛʐʏ's picture
I wish you hadn't shared such

I wish you hadn't shared such a personal story. There's no way I can respond without you feeling disrespected and offended. But I will say this. My argument applies to terminal diseases and neurological diseases as well. They are evil insomuch as they deprive us of the goodness of life.

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ Breezy

@ Breezy

Careful, your fundamentalism s showing.

Also your reply shows you know little and understand less of life and people. In other words "a callow youth". Fortunately it is likely you will grow out of it I hope or you will end up sad, embittered and lonely.
I do hope for your sake you don't end up in screaming agony and daily incontinence for years while "thoughts and prayers " are with you.

You should take a copy of al your pronouncements you make here Breezy, so you can read them and cringe at your fatuous ignorance when you are older and I hope wiser.

ʝօɦռ 6IX ɮʀɛɛʐʏ's picture
I do enjoy this new approach.

I do enjoy this new approach. Since age is something you posses and I do not, anything you attribute to it becomes true by virtue of seniority. No matter how eloquent my responses get, they can always be dismissed on the grounds of inexperience. Its a fail-proof system; its the perfect check mate.

Thankfully, old age doesn't bestow knowledge, and wisdom is only pertinent to decision making.

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
And, once again you display

And, once again you display the arrogance of inexperience and patronising superiority of the sureness of your convictions.

It is not a point scoring 'check mate' . I, for a short time was as pestilentially smug as you, experience taught me to approach things very differently. I too though "dozy old duffer" what can they know?
I refer you to the famous quote from Samuel Clemens (Mark Twain) "“When I was a boy of 14, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be 21, I was astonished at how much the old man had learned in seven years.”

You will learn, many of the convictions you now hold self evident and dear to you will tarnish and you will see their falsity. Hopefully someone will gently teach you some humility and to lose your hubris. Otherwise you are galloping, blindfold, full tilt for a precipice and the landing wont be pretty.

Have a good life, and trust me, being a smart arse is ultimately self defeating.

ʝօɦռ 6IX ɮʀɛɛʐʏ's picture
"Have a good life, and trust

"Have a good life, and trust me..."

I have no incentive to trust you; you're a stranger on a forum and your words don't inspire me to admiration. I have far better mentors including, but not limited to, my professors, pastors and family.

Tin-Man's picture
@John Re: "I wish you hadn

@John Re: "I wish you hadn't shared such a personal story. There's no way I can respond without you feeling disrespected and offended."

Yeah, John! Ain't that a bitch? Ya know, it's a damn shame when someone throws reality in your face, huh? And then those annoying little things like compassion, common decency, mercy, and common sense get in the way and shit all over those meticulously prepared and cold-hard "logical" and pristine textbook and biblical replies/excuses. How rude! I swear, when are people ever gonna learn that if they would just stay inside a classroom surrounded by books and professors, they would never have to deal with that whole reality headache, and then their lives would be so much less complicated. Then again, I suppose there are those of us who are simply gluttons for punishment.

Cheer up, though, buddy! Plenty of threads on this site. No doubt there will eventually be somebody who will not be so inconsiderate as to post something so real and personal, and you can feel guilt-free about trouncing it all you like to make up for this last one. Oh, and always remember to smile!

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ TM Re Wheezy

@ TM Re Wheezy
Joyous reply TM. Loved reading that.

Tin-Man's picture
@Old Man

@Old Man

Thank you.

Having been on here for a couple of months now, there is something I have noticed that has become quite baffling to me regarding pretty much every theist that has posted on this site. Almost without fail, at some point or another they will end up twisting, turning, bending, ducking, dodging, wiggling, and squirming in some of the most amazing and "impressive" manners to avoid and evade direct questions that they do not want to answer for fear of contradicting their own beliefs. And the ones who do rarely provide straight answers often end up going to preposterous lengths to defend and excuse slave ownership, rape, pedophilia, mass murder, genocide, and various other atrocities. Yet, WE (atheists) are the ones who are the bad guys??? WTF, over? *scratching head in puzzlement* Honestly, I just don't get it sometimes....

ʝօɦռ 6IX ɮʀɛɛʐʏ's picture
Tin-Man lol:

Tin-Man lol:

1. People enjoy feeling offended; outrage is an addicting emotion, and arguing is a satisfying outlet for it. Most of the responses I get now are just complaints. I haven't had the pleasure to talk to Sushisnake before. But she put a personal story on the table and responding to it seems like a sure way to hinder future conversations with her. Good conversations have become rare on this forum.

2. Remember when I said people seem to dismiss me unless I post my qualifications? So here they are: I've had two grandparents die of dementia-related complications. I was an EMT for a short while; and I've had one person die in my ambulance (technically nobody dies in an ambulance; they get pronounced dead at the hospital). You already know I've done 7 years of JROTC; my instructors were great, but they definitely didn't play around with discipline. I've also done door-to-door sales selling books; I've had my fair share of doors slammed in my face, and I've had police called on me for soliciting. I've done plenty of out-reach with my church: including but not limited to: taking food and provisions to the homeless; forming friendships with children from oppressed areas and low income housing; doing disaster relief after tornadoes hit; working volunteer at retirement/elderly homes and hospitals. I've had two close friends pass away, one from a heart attack, the other from an aneurysm. I live in Orlando and guess what: two classmates from my university died during the Pulse Nightclub shooting. I've also had the privilege of travel: I've seen Colombia, Mexico, Bahamas, Puerto Rico, Canada, France, Switzerland, and Germany; I've also seen many states in America from coast to coast. In fact during my last flight, we hit pretty bad turbulence, and it left me traumatized and I haven't flown again. Which sucks because I have plans to go live in Hawaii for a year. So I decided to start building an app for people that are afraid of flying. I've been talking to clinical psychologists since I graduated to help me know what approach to use.

So last but not least I'm proud of my education; psychology is arguably one of the most important degrees of this generation. Not only can I speak on dementia from personal experience, I can speak on it from a technical and scientific perspective. But here's the beautiful part however: I love education; I've easily spent over a thousand dollars on physical books, which I read for fun. I go on daily walks listening to podcasts or audiobooks. You best believe my education extends far beyond a diploma, and keep in mind that's just one diploma of more to come.

3. So frankly and respectfully, I don't care what anyone else's accomplishments have been on this forum. I don't care what achievements anyone has had. I don't care what wisdom they think age has brought them. Because I've had enough experiences, enough accomplishments, and enough relationships to keep myself satisfied; and the thought of the life that is still to come, my goals and my projects, its pains and its pleasures, its sorrowful and its sunny days, makes me jump out of my seat with excitement.

4. I decide how I approach my conversations. I decide which questions I answer. I decide which members I ignore. You're more than welcome to see that as dodging and wriggling. Bu I'm here for discussions that benefit me. Not life lessons. Not debates. I'm here because I don't know very many places where people are open (or so I thought) to conversation. I'm here to test out my ideas because I'm a firm believer of Popper's "Conjecture and Refutation" principle. My transgender post is a great example of that. I want people to take it apart, to dissect it, bring up contradictory evidence. I want desperately to see my ideas shatter on the ground, so I can build them up again. But instead, the best I got was a complaint on my use of the word "decide" and a thread indistinguishable from a room full of emotional ex-girlfriends. I'm of the belief that everyone has something to teach me; but they must merit it..

5. You were doing good Tin-man. One of the few on here that sought to listen and understand rather than accuse and impose. I'm still giving you the benefit of the doubt. Your previous comment on my "legislator post" seemed truly concerned with my behavior. I don't mind being called out for it, particularly because I pride myself in not resorting to insults nor foul language in my conversations. Sarcasm is as far as I try to go. I hold you in high regard because you were an ROTC instructor, and that program was foundational in my character and composure. Don't ruin that respect by going the route of Sheldon and Old Man.

But if you decide to ruin it, that's fine too. I've been around long enough to see members come and go. When the forum becomes toxic, I just step a away for a month or two, wait for new members to join, and pick back up where I left off.

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ Wheezy Junior

@ Wheezy Junior
Oh, ouch. I am wounded I tells ya wounded.

Tin-Man's picture
@John Re: "Tin-Man lol:"

@John Re: "Tin-Man lol:" (And all that followed)

Hey, John. My apologies for the delayed response. Not trying to dodge you, just a busy weekend. (Wife's birthday. *grin*) Anyway, I am working on a more thorough response I hope to get to you within the next day or so. For the moment, though, know that I appreciate your candid remarks. More later.

Tin-Man's picture
(I apologize in advance for

(I apologize in advance for the length of this. Much ground to cover, I'm afraid.)

@John6IX Breezy Re: "Tin-Man lol:" (And all that followed.)

John 6:9 – “There is a lad here, which hath five barley loaves, and two small fishes: but what are they among so many?” (KJV) (Interesting choice for a profile name, by the way. *chuckle*)

Anyway…… *HUGE SMILE* Ah-ha! Finally! Now you finally make sense to me. Before I continue, however, please allow me a brief moment to clarify a couple of things about myself for the sake of proper perspective.

1. You made the statements, “You were doing good Tin-man. One of the few on here that sought to listen and understand rather than accuse and impose. I'm still giving you the benefit of the doubt.” And, “I hold you in high regard because you were an ROTC instructor, and that program was foundational in my character and composure. Don't ruin that respect by going the route of Sheldon and Old Man.” Wow, that is mighty generous of you to give me the benefit of the doubt like that. Ya know what I’m gonna do? To return the favor, I will also give YOU the benefit of the doubt and interpret your statement as a compliment as opposed to your intending it as a backhanded condescending insult. Fair enough? Oh, and in regards to your respect for me…. For starters, I am sincerely proud of the fact you consider your ROTC training to have been a vital part of your development. And I do appreciate that you have respect for me in relation to that military training and for my conduct on this site. I do happen to be very proud of my accomplishments in each area. However, while I naturally would prefer people to respect me and my views/opinions, I can assure you it is not a necessity for me. (Especially on a site such as this where everybody is pretty much anonymous.) Believe me, I have plenty of people in the “real world” who know me for real and have respect for me. And while I have made a few friends on this site, the reality of it is that I could log off today and never come back, and my presence would be missed only briefly, if at all. Therefore, should you choose to stop respecting me for whatever reason(s), I am fairly confident my life will continue about its merry way much the same as it always has.

2. As I may have stated at various times here and there, my reasons for being on this site are (in no particular order) to socialize with people of similar mindsets, learn from others, vent frustrations to those who might understand, and – mainly – have fun in the process of it all. Pretty simple. And the best part is, I do not have to like or agree with a person to learn from that person. And despite how annoying, cocky, arrogant, condescending, and downright infuriating you can sometimes be, I have learned quite a bit from you on here. But here’s a funny one for you, John: I actually like you for some damn reason, you little shit. (For the life of me I cannot figure out why. Although, that “candid” post you made may have cleared up some of that mystery. lol) And I know you probably care about that as much as I care about your respecting me, but since we are being candid, there you go. So, okay, with that out of the way…..

Dude, you have been something of an enigma to me for a little while now. All this time I've been following your posts and watching how you debate in your "cool and solid" manner, there has been something about you that just didn’t “click”. And then I would catch moments when you would throw little wrenches into the gears of a discussion. And it wasn't necessarily because you actually believed what you suggested, it seemed more along the lines of... well (please pardon the term) playing Devil's Advocate, in a way. Quite honestly, that sometimes amused me. (I have a warped sense of humor.) And, all in all, on the surface most of that is fine. But, again, there has been something about you this whole time that has simply bugged the absolute piss out of me, and I could never quite put my finger on it. Thanks to your lengthy (and - for you - candid) response, however, I think I now know what it was. Basically, for lack of a better term, your posts lacked any real "humanity." And for me, that was a real curiosity, because I would detect little things here and there that just seemed “incongruent”. (Whether it is a gift or a curse, my friggin’ brain has a habit of picking up on anomalies and inconsistencies, either consciously or sub-consciously.) Thankfully, your post helped clear that up for me.

Here’s the thing, you have every right in the world to be extremely proud of you education/diploma. It is indeed a great accomplishment. Definitely impresses me, I can assure you. And it totally sucks that you have lost family and friends in such tragic circumstances. I have lost more friends, co-workers, and family over the years than I care to remember. Many of them did not go peacefully. A few of them went quite brutally. So I can honestly relate to how that affects a person. And then you say, “…I don't care what anyone else's accomplishments have been on this forum. I don't care what achievements anyone has had. I don't care what wisdom they think age has brought them. Because I've had enough experiences, enough accomplishments, and enough relationships to keep myself satisfied…” Hmmm…. I find it a real shame that you feel that way, because some of my most valuable lessons over the years have come from those who were usually many years older and considerably wiser than myself. And very few of those folks held any sort of college diplomas. Now, you are completely free to do as you please, obviously. Personally, though, I happen to be of the mindset that if any individual (regardless of age or education) with some amount of knowledge I may not possess is willing to take his/her time to share that knowledge with ME, then I am the one being a fool if I choose to disregard what he/she has to say. Just a little food for thought.

ʝօɦռ 6IX ɮʀɛɛʐʏ's picture
I think the verse John 6:9

I think the verse John 6:9 perfectly demonstrates the original theme of my OP. Not because what it says, but because it shows people view me through a Christian lens. You're not the first to bring up that verse, and attach meaning to it. But the truth is that's just my Xbox One username. 6IX is read SIX. That's what Drake calls the city of Toronto.

I do think there's a fine line between confidence and cockiness/arrogance. Unfortunately, I don't get to decide which side I'm on. I see myself as confident in my abilities; but if I approach two random girls and ask for their number, one will see that as confident, the other will see that as arrogant. If there's one thing psychology has taught me, its that we're horrible at understanding people. So at no point am I going to substitute someone else's opinion for my own. When I'm called dishonest, it doesn't affect me unless I can see for myself where my dishonesty lies. So, I see those that turn to words like arrogant and dishonest, as compensating for their inability to argue.

I agree fully that I sometimes play "Devil's Advocate." I've even defended positions that are against my own beliefs, such as the flat earth or extrasensory experiences. One way I decide upon my beliefs is by how well I can argue for them. Arguing positions that are contrary to my beliefs also helps me know how firm those beliefs are.

Lastly, I agree that my posts lack humanity. But I can guarantee you its not because I'm a secret psychopath lol. I do find that sometimes we let our humanity get in the way of discussions. So I try my best to remove it from my conversations. Consider this topic of abortion. I tried to just deal with facts and ideas. But I could have easily just accused everyone of being repressed serial killers, defending their disgusting desire to murder infants. That's basically the approach other's took with me, accusing me of hating women. If you ask me, I would of had the upper hand by those rules. Being accused of sexism seems trivial compared to being accused of sympathising with infanticide.

I always assume other's have something to teach me; but I have my limits.

Tin-Man's picture
@John Re: "I think the

@John Re: "I think the verse John 6:9 perfectly demonstrates ..." (and so on...)

Excellent. So, here's the tricky part (for me, at least). On the one hand, I truly admire (and sometimes envy) anybody who can take emotion out of their debates and stay focused on the actual topic in an objective manner. My wife is amazing at being able to do that, by the way. And for certain topics up to a certain point, I can usually (okay, sometimes) keep my emotions out of a debate. (I can be very passionate about things I strongly believe.) But with topics such as abortion, rape, euthanasia, etc. on the debate table, it is almost near impossible to keep emotions completely out of the discussion. Obviously, those are topics that many/most folks have some sort of personal experiences with, and therefore they have (naturally and rightfully) some amount of emotional investments in them. And although I agree it can be beneficial to the discussion to keep emotions at bay whenever possible, the fact of the matter is that we are all only human. Like it or not, emotions are very likely to leak in along the way, and - hey - that is not always a bad thing. Moreover, there is absolutely nothing wrong with acknowledging those emotions, or - for that matter - showing a bit of empathy to them sometimes. Doesn't mean the discussion has to go to shit because of it. Just means we are acknowledging each other as one human to another. Nothing wrong with that, I hope. *chuckle* As I have said before, you are hella-smart, and I have learned a few things from you on here. (You have some interesting debate tactics.) Hell, you have even made me laugh a few times. lol Still, for what it is worth, a little piece of friendly advice would be to acknowledge that it is sometimes okay to allow others to know how you actually feel about something every now and then. Or, at the very least, if you happen to be playing Devil's Advocate, it is okay to let others know you are doing such. You have said you are here for productive discussions that benefit you. Cool beans. Well, learning to be just a little more "human" on here could possibly help you in that respect. Again, just a little advice based on observations from a relatively objective/neutral position. Feel free to take it or leave it.

Tin-Man's picture
@John Re: User name

@John Re: User name

Oh, almost forgot...

How the hell is 6IX read as "Six"??? And who is Drake and why does he call Toronto "Six"? Inquiring minds want to know. lol

ʝօɦռ 6IX ɮʀɛɛʐʏ's picture
I think one of the issues

I think one of the issues with being more human, or showing more emotion, is that I'm not exactly on friendly territory. I'm definitely putting myself in a position where I expect to be criticized. On any given post, I can expect to have multiple people responding to it, criticising it, and looking for contradictions. It certainly doesn't feel practical to try to connect one-on-one with people, because I'm not in a one-on-one environment, this is a many-to-one environment. It requires a different approach.

4OUR, 5IVE, 6IX, 7EVEN. Drake is a rapper. Toronto is called the six because of its area code 416.

Tin-Man's picture
@John Re: 6IX

@John Re: 6IX

Ah. Got that one. Makes sense. Toronto being called six because of that area code, though, is a bit of a stretch for me. *chuckle*

Yeah, I can see where you're coming from with the many-to-one environment thing. I get it. But it ain't always necessarily about being practical, man. Sometimes it is just simply about being human. I mean, let's face it, the reality is that there are absolutely no discussions on here that are going to change the world in any revolutionary way. At the end of the day, most of the threads started will end up getting pushed down further and further until practically forgotten. The most we can hope for on here is that maybe an individual or two will walk away a bit more enlightened, or that maybe somebody can get some advice on here to help them with a problem in their life. With that in mind, what is wrong with being civil with each other from time to time? While I cannot speak for others, I know there is nobody on here whom I consider an "enemy" in any way shape or form. Hell, even good ol' FIG doesn't even fit in that category. I have faced real enemies before, and nobody on here so far fits that description. So, again, for what it is worth, learning to lighten up a little could possibly go a long way toward more fruitful discussions.

Sushisnake's picture
" I wish you hadn't shared

" I wish you hadn't shared such a personal story" Well, that's the thing about life. If you going around expounding your abstract, moral principles as Absolutes, sooner rather than later someone is going to hit you with real life applications of those principles.
I don't feel disrespected or offended by you, John. I just feel you're too young to notice all the shades of grey in the world yet. It takes time to see the grey. Time, experience and a shit load of open minded "soul" searching. As you get older, you realise your concrete opinions and absolute certainties serve you about as well as an ashtray on a motorbike. Flick 'em, learn, move on, becomes your motto. The great benefit is you've changed your own judgements so often, not judging others is a doddle.

Speaking of spooky stuff like "souls", let's clear one thing up. The word "evil" should never be applied to fatal diseases. Evil is a moral, usually biblical term, and has nothing to do with death and disease. Both are simple facts of life.

" My argument applies to terminal diseases and neurological diseases as well. "

Of course it does. But it isn’t an argument, is it? It's your opinion.

One that I and many, many others all over the world of all ages who have seen human suffering and indignity up close and personal do not share. We don't accept "Pain, as displeasing as it might be, is still worth experiencing ", because we've seen too much and too many types of pain. Pain is a lot more than merely "displeasing" and believe me, it is NOT worth it, whatever "it" maybe. Love and dignity are worth far more than pain. Suffering doesn’t enoble, John. It robs one of self.

I'll look at the rest of your opinion now, in closing.

A) "I think suicide and thoughts of suicide are indicative of a psychological problem."

Do you? Do you believe all it will take is the right psychoactive and the potential suicide will turn 180 degrees and become an inspiring beam of sunshine who touches so many lives with their winning ways and positive attitude the Hallmark Channel will want the family to sign the movie rights over before the body's even cold, too?

Suicidal ideation is indicative of deep, inescapable suffering- physical pain, psychic pain, pain you are inflicting without your knowledge, consent or control, and/or a complete loss of all human dignity and personal agency.

But I suppose you think it's a simple matter of producing the right medication and all the suffering will go away? Pity about those with Locked In Syndrome, but hey! Presto! With the right psychoactive, Hallmark, here we come!

B) "I don’t think suicide is ever a rational decision. I view it as deeply irrational."

Do you? Why? You've given no arguments for your position, just an assertion - an opinion -that pain is displeasing but worth experiencing and anyone who disagrees is a nutjob because...what?...human life is precious and must be preserved at any cost?  And where do other kinds of suffering fit in your philosophy? Or are you so callow you really think suicide is just about physical pain?

Suicide is very often an intelligent, rational, carefully considered and thoroughly discussed response to losing everything that makes us, us. I don't know about you, but I'd much prefer to live in a world where individuals who have had enough of suffering can die painlessly surrounded by their loved ones instead of throwing themselves in front of freight trains or blowing their brains out, but that's just my opinion.

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ Sushisnake "

@ Sushisnake "

" I wish you hadn't shared"

*standing applause* Thank you for articulating my actual feelings and the precise demolition of that fatuous comment of Wheezy's. Brilliant.

Another case for the 10,000 Likes button. * applauds some more*

ʝօɦռ 6IX ɮʀɛɛʐʏ's picture
1. I'm fine with getting rid


1. I'm fine with getting rid of the word evil and its synonyms; I actually proposed that we do on a previous thread. The response I received: "What a truly idiotic claim."

2. I'm not sure why you went from my comment on the irrationality of suicide, to psychoactive drugs. Suicide is irrational, primarily because yes, it is often indicative of a deeper psychological issue, one which comes upon them without their consent or control. I'm not a proponent of medication for psychological issues; they are a biological fix for something that hasn't been biologically diagnosed. Drugs attempt to artificially return people to a position of normalcy, but because its artificial they're not quiet themselves, so they supplement with more drugs trying to feel themselves again.

I think suicides which are not the result of depression, are the result of a false promise given to us by death. Death promises us peace from our suffering and rest from our troubles. The problem is that only the living can experience peace, and only the living can enjoy rest. Death is the absence of peace; its a promise you'll never get to experience. Its a rest you'll never get to enjoy. Staying alive is the only way to experience peace and rest. Suicide can be intelligent, but its not rational (with the exception of what your father wanted).

As far as euthanasia is concerned, I do prefer palliative care. But the key difference with these situations, is that the pain and suffering they experience are the direct result of death knocking at their doors. It is by no means comparable to a young adult contemplating suicide over a breakup; or an adult contemplating suicide because they lost their job. I do think you've somewhat changed the conversation from abortion to euthanasia, and are not putting my comments in their proper context.

3. Since you won't be offended, I'll give two points in response to your personal story:

a. Depending on the neurological problem, the objective experience of seeing someone else suffer can be worse than the subjective experience of suffering it yourself. Just like when a loved one dies, those left behind suffer more than the person who passed away. It almost seems as if your father was aware of that distinction from what you told me. You said he was terrified of dementia because of what he saw happen to his mother. Not only that, but you then emphasized what the reason he wanted to die, wasn't to protect himself from the disease, it was to protect his family from the pain of having him go through it.

Given that such is the case, then I agree. Those type of "suicidal thoughts" are not irrational. Because those thoughts are not selfish. They are born out of a desire to protect others. They are not comparable to the suicide I have been discussing so far.

b. Dementia is a very broad term, and it often encompasses more than just memory loss. At the very least there might confusion and fear. But if I were to just focus on the memory loss aspect, which is all you presented, then I'm tempted to say this: Because identity is intimately tied with our memory, to have memory reverse back, is to have your identity reverse back as well. A person whose memory is lost and reverses back 20 years, is subjectively no worse off than when they lived 20 years back (Again, ignoring everything else that isn't memory loss). Sometimes a person feels like somethin is missing when it occurs slowly, but they have no vantage point from which to see what they lost. A family member who has such a vantage point, suffers more than the person themselves. It seems like you also know this. Given that with the exception of the Vietnam phase, you said he is now in a happy place in his head, fishing and gardening.

Conclusion: I think your experience supports my claim, that death is bad precisely because it deprives us of live. Terminal disease and traumas are just the escorts which take us from the land of the living to the land of the dead. It doesn't affect my comment unless you argue that nobody should live longer than they did.

Sushisnake's picture


You: “I'm not sure why you went from my comment on the irrationality of suicide, to psychoactive drugs. Suicide is irrational, primarily because yes, it is often indicative of a deeper psychological issue...”

The reason I went there is because you said suicide is irrational, a psychological issue. You’ve done so here again. I assumed you thought appropriate psychiatric treatment would fix suicidal ideation, as I’ve lost count of how many times I’ve heard that as a justification to prevent legalising euthanasia. I apologise if I was incorrect, however, voluntary euthanasia and assisted dying are both forms of suicide and rarely, if ever, irrational, so your repeated claim that suicide is irrational is demonstrably false. You admit as much yourself later in your comment about my father’s wish for voluntary euthanasia.

You: “I think suicides which are not the result of depression, are the result of a false promise given to us by death. Death promises us peace from our suffering and rest from our troubles...”

And I think I can apply that little bit of irrationality to everyone who believes in some kind of afterlife – roughly two-thirds/three-quarters of humanity. So you seem to be saying it’s fine and dandy for the healthy faithful to maintain their delusion right to the end until they die peacefully in their sleep of old age , but the suffering faithful? Hell no! Wake up! There’s nothing after death. Harden up! Embrace your suffering! Life is precious!

And what about strong atheists, John? We don't believe death is just a rest and a bit of peace and quiet. Are we denied euthanasia, too?

You: “As far as euthanasia is concerned, I do prefer palliative care...”

It may shock you to know all who request euthanasia aren’t at death’s door. Some of them are sick and tired of a complete lack of personal agency and dignity. Some are in egregious pain medication cannot adequately address, but are years from dying.

You: “It is by no means comparable to a young adult contemplating suicide over a breakup; or an adult contemplating suicide because they lost their job...”

I’m not talking about young adults contemplating suicide because their partner dumped them or an adult contemplating suicide because they lost their job, I’m talking about voluntary euthanasia and assisted dying for individuals who are suffering egregiously and can't take it anymore. However, I’m not dismissive of the spurned lover or the unemployed breadwinner’s suffering, either.

You: “I think you've somewhat changed the conversation from abortion to euthanasia, and are not putting my comments in their proper context.”

If memory serves me correctly, you used an assertion of suicide’s irrationality to segue to abortion, to support your belief that it, too, is irrational. I didn’t want to discuss abortion, partly because many others on the thread had already engaged you on it, but mainly because abortion rates are dropping all over the developed world anyway and will continue to drop given access to affordable contraception. Debating abortion now is like shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted. If the developing world had access to affordable contraception, I’m confident abortion rates would be dropping there, too.

You: “They are not comparable to the suicide I have been discussing so far.”

You haven’t been discussing suicide, you’ve been making blanket judgements on it..

You: “b. Dementia is a very broad term and it often encompasses more than just memory loss...”

My father has Rapidly Progressive Diffuse Lewy Body Disease and it encompasses a lot more than memory loss. It affects his executive functioning. He hallucinates. He can be violent. He has problems with movement including tremors, stiffness, slowness and difficulty walking. He falls frequently. He breaks bones and the fractures can’t be set because of the dementia. He broke both collarbones and his head now hangs, causing him breathing difficulties and dysphagia. He’s had aspiration pneumonia more than once. Infections cause further mental deterioration in individuals with dementia.

You: “Conclusion: I think your experience supports my claim, that death is bad precisely because it deprives us of live...”

I think your conclusion is childishly self-evident and has nothing at all to tell us about suffering individuals wanting to end their own lives. “Death is bad” Good grief. So’s eating a bad prawn or getting caught in the rain on your way to a job interview.

ʝօɦռ 6IX ɮʀɛɛʐʏ's picture
In my comment that spurred

In my comment that spurred this entire conversation I said the following: "Even if I were to suppose that suicide is ever rational, I want that decision to be mine to make. Let me live a miserable life for as long as I am able to tolerate it, and let me decide when to put an end to is."

That was my segue into abortion. I stated my thoughts on the irrationality of suicide; then stated that despite this I want suicide to be my choice. I don't want to be killed in the womb on the grounds that I might live a life full of suffering. Let me live that life, and decide if I want to end it. That is why shifting the emphasis of my argument puts my comment in a position that it wasn't intended for.

I do like the dismissiveness of your last paragraph. As far as I'm concerned, yes, I have been stating the obvious. My conclusion is meant to be self-evident; much like not eating the bad prawn is self-evident. Now that I know abortion isn't your interest, I don't mind shifting the conversation.

Sushisnake's picture


I'm sorry John, but you brought up suicide long ago, many posts ago. We've already had the discussion. It's done. We're not going to have it again because you're finally woke to the fact that my remarkable lack of comment on abortion reflects my remarkable lack of interest in discussing it with you. We're not going to revisit it and pretend it never happened, but here's a quick recap for you: you acknowledged there was nothing irrational about my father's wish for voluntary euthanasia aka suicide, disproving your own endlessly repeated claim that suicide is irrational. End of story. Done and dusted.

You: " I do like the dismissiveness of your last paragraph. As far as I'm concerned, yes, I have been stating the obvious. My conclusion is meant to be self-evident"

And it STILL has nothing to tell us about suffering individuals wanting to end their own lives!

ʝօɦռ 6IX ɮʀɛɛʐʏ's picture
I did acknowledge there's

I did acknowledge there's nothing irrational about your father's wishes. I do think euthanasia is a more appropriate term for it than suicide, but that's irrelevant. It does not disprove my claim, unfortunately, since my post left the door open to that possibility; and overall suicide is an irrational decision. I'm also aware my conclusion has nothing to tell us about suffering individuals ending their own lives; since its purpose revolved around abortion.

Ignoring all that, I do think you fell into the same pit that other's fell into throughout this conversation. You turn things political without reason. I personally do not care at all about politics. I don't care who decides on the abortion, and I don't care if people are allowed or prohibited euthanasia. Those conclusions are only interesting once the premises have been established. Asking me if I think strong atheists should be denied euthanasia seems strangely uninteresting.

Sushisnake's picture


You: " You turn things political without reason."

Bills to legalise euthanasia being presented in parliaments all over the world, faith based organisations fighting them tooth and nail with money and influence, despite the electorate's wishes, but no reason to get political, no reason at all.

Sushisnake's picture


I said we were done with the topic and I apologise for going back on my word, but I swear this is it, last word..

"overall suicide is an irrational decision"

Except when it isn't.
And no true Scotsman wears anything under his kilt.

Over and out.


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