Theists Answer This

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arakish's picture
I still have mine (doesn't

I still have mine (doesn't work). Back then they were called acoustic couplers. The one I had was a whopping 300 bits per second.

Someone told me that the term "baud" was a shortening for bits/second audio.

rmfr

Sushisnake's picture
@Cyber

@Cyber
A doctor friend is currently taking an online course on medicine and hospitals in antiquity, just for fun. She was reading bits out to me about hospitals in ancient Egypt the other day. :-)

Sky Pilot's picture
Dumb Ox,

Dumb Ox,

"The first hospitals were started by religious orders."

Are you really sure about that? = ttps://www.healthcaredesignmagazine.com/architecture/history-hospitals-and-wards/

David Killens's picture
@Dumb Ox

@Dumb Ox

"What you don’t realize is that most of the values you hold to are Christian in origin."

What specific values are JUST Christian in origin? Name one or two. Be careful, I will not just blindly accept stuff, I check it out.

Valiya's picture
@arakish

@arakish

From an Islamic perspective... those who try to force another person to accept the faith is doing the worst disservice to the faith and also indulging in an absolutely useless exercise. Because faith has no meaning if doesn't come from one's heart. To force someone to accept islam helps nobody and is a sin.

Sky Pilot's picture
ROYISM,

ROYISM,

"To force someone to accept islam helps nobody and is a sin."

But the more converts they get the more costumes the con men will sell and the more people will go to the Mecca theme park. It's all about the money.

Ramo Mpq's picture
I don't know if you are here

I don't know if you are here just to be an idiot or troll but, look up what islam says. It specifically states "no compulsion in religion" meaning you cant force anyone to become a Muslim.

Tin-Man's picture
@Man in search of...

@Man in search of...

Hey, just a little helpful info. These strings can get a little jumbled sometimes. For that reason, it is a good idea to denote who you are addressing when you post. I normally use...

@(name) Re: (subject or quote from person specified)

Placing that at the very top of your post helps cut down on the confusion. Oh, and welcome to the AR.

Ramo Mpq's picture
Thanks for that tip, yeah its

Thanks for that tip, yeah its confusing at trying to follow who's saying what.

jonthecatholic's picture
This actually goes with the

This actually goes with the assumption that all apologists' end goal is to convert people. Such is not the case with many Christian and non-Christian apologists. Most apologists are content with what you've said. To teach and preach the gospel. That's enough for them.

I would agree with you however that the initial reaction of most theists would be convince a loved one who has become atheist that there is a God.

It's a very natural human response. Pardon the analogy but say my child comes home one day and says to me, "Dad, I don't believe that the earth is round. It has to be flat." I would not be wrong of me to sit him down and convince him that the Earth is indeed round.

Even if this is an acquaintance who I just met, the initial human response would be to correct incorrect beliefs. I think we can all agree that incorrect beliefs are dangerous.

Now, as to which is the correct belief, (the existence or non-existence of God) can be debated and is a totally different subject altogether. The fact remains that theists believe in the existence of God and believe it to be true. (Not saying it is true). But it is a natural human reaction to correct false beliefs.

Nyarlathotep's picture
ROYISM - From an Islamic

ROYISM - From an Islamic perspective... those who try to force another person to accept the faith is doing the worst disservice to the faith...

Apostasy from Islam is punishable by death in:

  • Yemen
  • Brunei
  • Saudi Arabia
  • Malaysia
  • Oman
  • United Arab Emirates
  • Iran
  • Mauritania
  • Afghanistan
  • Qatar
  • Sudan
  • Somalia
  • Libya
  • Maldives

Apparently there are huge groups of Muslims who disagree with your version of the Islamic perspective. Why do you think that is? Do you think they are stupid? Do you think they have been lied to by their religious leaders? What gives?

Ramo Mpq's picture
I am not sure where you get

I am not sure where you get that info from but just for sake of argument i will say its true even, though i i have been to a few of those countries for work and no that what you are saying (or copy and pasting) is 100% false. While people think apostasy is punishable by death in fact it is NOT. There are multiple cases by the Prophet where people gave up their faith and he pardoned them and did nothing to them. As well as multiple verses in the Quran stating if one wants to believe they can and if they want to disbelieve they can. Also, there is not 1 single Islamic state on earth today. There are many Muslim countries and many claim to carry out their ultra strict and misinterpreted version of Islam only to oppress it peoples and get away with it calling it religion. But if you look at and analyze how the governments treat their people you will easily see past their BS. Almost all Muslims will tell you that unfortunately, Muslims countries are far from the teachings of Islam

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ Man In Search

@ Man In Search

"To secure convictions, Saudi Arabia's administrative and judicial authorities routinely seek confessions. To secure confessions, the authorities commonly engage in severe violations of human rights. Persons accused of blasphemy may be subjected to torture or to cruel and degrading treatment as well as to prolonged and solitary detention. The proceedings which determine an accused's fate may be secret. Execution is usually by beheading with a sword for males and by firing squad for females." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blasphemy_law_in_Saudi_Arabia

"Last December, for instance, authorities in Sudan charged 25 men for apostasy – the act of abandoning one’s faith — including by converting to another religion. The men face the death penalty for following a different interpretation of Islam than the one sanctioned by the government. And, in Pakistan, police are currently pursuing a Christian accused of sending an allegedly blasphemous poem to a friend. Blasphemy – defined as speech or actions considered to be contemptuous of God or the divine – is a capital crime in Pakistan" http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/07/29/which-countries-still-ou...

And here are the Hadith that mention very specific penalties.
Sahih Bukhari (52:260) - "...The Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.' "

Sahih Bukhari (83:37) - "Allah's Apostle never killed anyone except in one of the following three situations: (1) A person who killed somebody unjustly, was killed (in Qisas,) (2) a married person who committed illegal sexual intercourse and (3) a man who fought against Allah and His Apostle and deserted Islam and became an apostate."

Sahih Bukhari (84:57) - [In the words of] "Allah's Apostle, 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.'"

Sahih Bukhari (89:271) - A man who embraces Islam, then reverts to Judaism is to be killed according to "the verdict of Allah and his apostle."

Sahih Bukhari (84:58) - "There was a fettered man beside Abu Muisa. Mu'adh asked, 'Who is this (man)?' Abu Muisa said, 'He was a Jew and became a Muslim and then reverted back to Judaism.' Then Abu Muisa requested Mu'adh to sit down but Mu'adh said, 'I will not sit down till he has been killed. This is the judgment of Allah and His Apostle (for such cases) and repeated it thrice.' Then Abu Musa ordered that the man be killed, and he was killed. Abu Musa added, 'Then we discussed the night prayers'"

Sahih Bukhari (84:64-65) - "Allah's Apostle: 'During the last days there will appear some young foolish people who will say the best words but their faith will not go beyond their throats (i.e. they will have no faith) and will go out from (leave) their religion as an arrow goes out of the game. So, wherever you find them, kill them, for whoever kills them shall have reward on the Day of Resurrection.'" https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/quran/apostasy.aspx

Have a great day.

Tin-Man's picture
@Royism Re: "To force

@Royism Re: "To force someone to accept islam helps nobody and is a sin."

along with....

@JoC Re: "But it is a natural human reaction to correct false beliefs."

Oh, the irony here is simply too good to pass up.

To force Islam on somebody is a sin. But - apparently - convincing an uneducated impressionable young man or woman to strap several pounds of high explosives and ball bearings to themselves and set it off in the middle of a crowded area of innocent "non-believers" and/or Christians in the name of Allah/Islam is totally okay. Yeah, it is absolutely silly of me to think they are actually trying to force Islam on others. I can be a really inconsiderate dolt like that sometimes. I mean, obviously they are merely following their natural human instincts to correct false beliefs.

Sky Pilot's picture
Tin-Man,

Tin-Man,

"But - apparently - convincing an uneducated impressionable young man or woman to strap several pounds of high explosives and ball bearings to themselves and set it off in the middle of a crowded area of innocent "non-believers" and/or Christians in the name of Allah/Islam is totally okay."

There's a very large incentive for people to become Islamic martyrs. According to the fairy tale each one will be able to intercede on behalf of 70 of his family members on Judgment Day. http://hadithcollection.com/abudawud/240-Abu%20Dawud%20Book%2008.%20Jiha...

So if people want to go to paradise it's in their interest for little Ali to blow himself up. Besides, he'll be in paradise himself so it's all good.

Tin-Man's picture
@Dio

@Dio Re: Islamic martyrs

Ya know, it just occurred to me... Perhaps there was a mis-translation in the texts somewhere when somebody stated, "Islam is a religion of peace." From all apparent evidence, it would stand to reason the translation probably should have been, "Islam is the religion of PIECES."

Sky Pilot's picture
Tin-Man,

Tin-Man,

Islam and Old Testament Judaism are very similar. That's because Uthman used Judaism as his religious model.

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ Dio

@ Dio
Correct, at the time of Mohammed and later there were Ebionites and other Jewish christian sects living in the area having escaped the Roman church pogroms. There is scholarly speculation that much of the Islamic Jesus information is drawn from their traditions including the non divinity of jesus ( lookup Adoptionism) and some marked differences between the Islamic versions of the NT ( which are based on a truncated Matthew as were the Ebionites beliefs) and the later 4th century Pauline texts.

Dave Matson's picture
Here's a thought for theists!

Here's a thought for theists! If God is deeply interested in free will so that he might collect (in heaven) those who freely chose him, then why the threat of hell fire? Doesn't that make it easier for less worthy individuals to chose God? How worthy is someone who chooses God because she is afraid of hell fire? If God were using his omniscient noodle, he would have offered an earthly paradise to those who rejected him! Thus, God would get only the best of the best in heaven!

And, if God were only interested in how many people he could get into heaven, then he would have made them much more resistant to doing evil. They would still have free will, but only a tiny fraction would choose evil. So, either way God comes out looking like a moron!

And, what do we do with free will once people get to heaven? Will they require brain surgery to remove that free will least they sin in heaven? Get ready, Christians, for lobotomy time! You will spend the rest of eternity as heavenly robots incapable of doing evil!

[Last 2 paragraphs added]

Sky Pilot's picture
Greensnake,

Greensnake,

"And, what do we do with free will once people get to heaven? Will they require brain surgery to remove that free will least they sin in heaven? Get ready, Christians, for lobotomy time! You will spend the rest of eternity as heavenly robots incapable of doing evil!"

How can a souls in in the golden cube prison when there's nothing to do except sing Yahweh's praises for all of eternity? The only thing to eat is one piece of fruit per month and water, which is rationed from Yahweh's throne. There's no sex and no place to go to. The only thing to wear is a white robe.

Dave Matson's picture
I guess that new, heavenly

I guess that new, heavenly recruits WILL need brain surgery so that they won't suffer too much! All that boredom, geez!!

Valiya's picture
@Greensnake

@Greensnake
You said: “Here's a thought for theists! If God is deeply interested in free will so that he might collect (in heaven) those who freely chose him, then why the threat of hell fire?”

There are two parts to belief. One is believing in God using your freewill. The second part is that once your belief is set, you need to order your life according to His teachings. But why should I live according to God’s commands, even I believe in Him? The answer to that is heaven and hell. I can believe in god and tell lies, I can believe in god and steal, right? But by believing that God will reward/punish you is what reforms you as a person.

You said: “Doesn't that make it easier for less worthy individuals to chose God? How worthy is someone who chooses God because she is afraid of hell fire?”

You are mixing up things here. You don’t believe in God because there is hell and heaven. Rather, you believe in hell and heaven because you firstly believed in God.

You said: “If God were using his omniscient noodle, he would have offered an earthly paradise to those who rejected him! Thus, God would get only the best of the best in heaven!”

God’s intention is not to misguide people. He has given everyone the ability to think and realize the truth and the freewill to either live by it or not. Those who are too arrogant to apply thought/reason with humility are misguiding themselves.

You said: “And, if God were only interested in how many people he could get into heaven, then he would have made them much more resistant to doing evil.”

God is not interested in numbers. He has created man with freewill – the ability to choose good or evil. Only man is responsible for the choices he makes. To make man less resistant to evil will be toying with his free will.

You said: “And, what do we do with free will once people get to heaven? Will they require brain surgery to remove that free will least they sin in heaven?”

You are asking this because you think freewill kicks in only in matters of right and wrong. But that’s not the case. I can use freewill to kill a life or save a life, and at the same time I can also use it to decide if I want to paint a tree or a mountain. In the first case it’s a decision of morality, in the second it’s just a choice of aesthetics. What gets suspended in the paradise is the need to make moral choices… but you will have a multiplicity of other choices to make to simple enjoy life.

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ Royism

@ Royism

And the evidence for this fine theory of yours is what?

Valiya's picture
@old man shouts

@old man shouts

I was just clarifying the logic behind the theology...

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ Royism

@ Royism
I don't know you are applying logic (more wishful thinking I suspect) as you seem to have a direct line into "what god is thinking" viz:

"God’s intention is not to misguide people."

"God is not interested in numbers."

How exactly do you know this? And what evidence do you have that backs up your claims?

LogicFTW's picture
@Old man shouts clouds:

@Old man shouts clouds:

I apologize, I am clearly not Royism, but I wanted to answer your "god is not interested in numbers."

This is pretty clearly true to me logically/reasonably. "God" does not give a shit about numbers and/or accuracy.

It is estimated around 108 billion people have "lived." If we included all those times an egg got fertilized = a person, double that number to around 200 billion. (Apparently "god" changes his mind a lot if we take that insane idea that a fertilized egg = human.)

Even the most popular particular religion where everyone agrees on the same major details/accuracy struggles to have hit a mere 1 billion, now and those that have already died. Religious texts are open to interpretation, editing/updating, and translation. And many of those religions have even followers that "stray from the path, and by the various god interpretations do not properly follow their god idea teachings, sinned etc.

So this "god" that created 200 billion "souls" will be lucky if the most popular religion got him pegged as correct, and followed his teachings correctly, that maybe super generously by religious text standards 500 million actually passed "god's" little "free will" test. That is 1 in 400 people. With a vast vast majority of those 399 people for every one person, to have "passed" this weird test idea never even remotely having the possibility to even hear of his particular "god" presence. And these are extremely generous numbers and assuming the most popular god idea is correct.

If we took an average of all religions, since we cannot possibly know which of them are correct, (And that is assuming any of them are correct) that 1 in 400 number drops to something more like 1 in 400,000. These are starting to feel more like lottery odds. (Not powerball or mega millions.) Again I am being extremely generous here, I do not have exact data backing this up, so I go very generous.

To put this number in perspective, if you prayed 10 times a day, every day since you were born, (okay let us have parents do it for you for your first ~10 or so years) and lived to a very old age of 110, You will have just crossed over to 400k prayers. Only one of those prayers actually got randomly picked to be "heard," by sheer dumb luck.

.

Now the common counter argument here is, that god is fine with you not getting the details right, or even hilariously wrong as long as you are a "good" person. I can say I believe in the flying spaghetti monster, and for god to approach even a 50/50 rate of all people that are "saved" because they are good decent people, I make the grade. It is a common joke/comic that "god" would actually buddy up with the atheist/agnostics as the more "reasonable" and less annoying people. Instead of all those that incessantly pray to "him" start wars, forcefully convert, collect lots of money and power for themselves using god name etc all in the possibly hilarious, (but horrifying when loss of life is considered,) wrong idea of him.

I do not believe in god, soul, afterlife, but purely math/logic/reason wise, I say my odds of passing "gods" free will test actually increased being an atheist over the devout theist.

Also, strictly be definition, the most popular "super natural deity belief" by far? Atheist the lack of belief. Since we are all born that way.

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ LfTW and @ Royism

@ LfTW and @ Royism

There you royism that's an answer to a question. Logic, sources and facts. Notice LfTW didn't once mention some random book he had read claiming to be god's last word on earth. He presented logic and proofs that god doesn't care about numbers, but that if She exited at all she couldn't comprehend them.

Thanks for that LfTW. Royism, now your proofs of your hotline into god's mind please.

Sky Pilot's picture
LogicForTW,

LogicForTW,

"Also, strictly be definition, the most popular "super natural deity belief" by far? Atheist the lack of belief. Since we are all born that way."

While people are born with a blank slate they don't stay that way all of their lives. Humans are extremely superstitious and will create anything that will give them an edge against the mean world. As time passes and a person gets nicked and dinged he will gravitate toward a belief in a supernatural entity that he hope will ease his burden. Most of the time it's a mainline deity but it doesn't have to be. It could be a personal idol.

What usually happens is that as time passes the person sees that his belief isn't paying any dividends so he abandons it. At that point he may choose to go naked and renounce such beliefs in deities. That's where I am. I'm comfortable with my position. But will I always be? Who knows? I might place my faith in the paint on the wall if I need a crutch as everything turns to black.

Tin-Man's picture
Re: "....logic behind the

Re: "....logic behind the theology."

The oxymoron to beat all oxymorons.

arakish's picture
by ROYISM

by ROYISM

There are two parts to belief. One is believing in God using your freewill. The second part is that once your belief is set, you need to order your life according to His teachings. But why should I live according to God’s commands, even I believe in Him? The answer to that is heaven and hell. I can believe in god and tell lies, I can believe in god and steal, right? But by believing that God will reward/punish you is what reforms you as a person.

You don’t believe in God because there is hell and heaven. Rather, you believe in hell and heaven because you firstly believed in God.

God’s intention is not to misguide people. He has given everyone the ability to think and realize the truth and the freewill to either live by it or not. Those who are too arrogant to apply thought/reason with humility are misguiding themselves.

God is not interested in numbers. He has created man with freewill – the ability to choose good or evil. Only man is responsible for the choices he makes. To make man less resistant to evil will be toying with his free will.

You think freewill kicks in only in matters of right and wrong. But that’s not the case. I can use freewill to kill a life or save a life, and at the same time I can also use it to decide if I want to paint a tree or a mountain. In the first case it’s a decision of morality, in the second it’s just a choice of aesthetics. What gets suspended in the paradise is the need to make moral choices… but you will have a multiplicity of other choices to make to simple enjoy life.

==================================================

First, I removed the text of the one you responded to and included. I also removed text from what you wrote that may cause the confusion of such. And no, What I have left does not take it out of context. That is is why I am including your full text above, excepting the little I removed, so you can see that it was not anti-contexted. Bleck, what a word... Thus, anyone can read it and see that it is still coherent. Now on to commenting on what you wrote. ROYISM's Original Post.

==================================================

There are two parts to belief. One is believing in God using your freewill. The second part is that once your belief is set, you need to order your life according to His teachings. But why should I live according to God’s commands, even I believe in Him? The answer to that is heaven and hell. I can believe in god and tell lies, I can believe in god and steal, right? But by believing that God will reward/punish you is what reforms you as a person.

Completely wrong! There is only one part to any belief. Either you believe or you do not. What you just said above sounds like the stupid remark of "kind of pregnant." There ain't no kind of. There ain't no two parts. Either are or are not. You sound exactly like Ken Ham, William Lane Craig, Kent and Eric Hovind, and the rest of their retarded apologistic gaggle, in that you are trying to utilize the same beguiling dialectical semantics, distorted and perverted data, and emotional whiny-ass pleas to make your point.

The second part is that once your belief is set, you need to order your life according to His teachings.

Just like the thought I had at the very first Sunday Sermon I was forced to attend on the ideology of "Original Sin," the same occurred here, "Are you actually that stupid?" And, no, I ain't attacking you, I am asking for clairification. This suppossed "second part" is NOT a part of belief. This is nothing more than the result that is supposed to happen once you believe at all. Again, there is ONLY one part of any belief, you do or you do not. Κατνοó εσεíσ?

But why should I live according to God’s commands, even [if] I believe in Him? The answer to that is heaven and hell. I can believe in god and tell lies, I can believe in god and steal, right? But by believing that God will reward/punish you is what reforms you as a person.

Einstein said it best: If people are good only because they fear punishment, and hope for reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed. — Albert Einstein

And here is the gist for me. After what I have been through (read Soul Shatter), I do not fear punishment. I have already been TO Hell and THROUGH Hell. Thus, there is no form of punishment that could even make me give it any regard. No form of punishment that would even reform me as a person, except me. No one else had anything to do with reforming me. After the Soul Shatter, I had no one to either help or hinder me from having to reform myself. And, yes, it did take several years. And think on this: If you cannot decide the difference between good and evil, then you lack empathy. Not religion.

==================================================

You don’t believe in God because there is hell and heaven. Rather, you believe in hell and heaven because you firstly believed in God.

Only one problem here. Do you even know what an atheist is? Atheism is the complete lack of any belief in any god or gods. Here is a new term for you, did you know that I am actually a polyatheist? Polyatheist — one who lacks belief in over a thousand gods; an equal opportunity disbeliever. Although you probably lack the intelligence to comprehend this, but did you know that you are also a polyatheist? There are thousands of gods you do not believe in. Atheists have simply taken this to include one more. I do not believe in Heaven nor in Hell. I do not believe in your silly sky faerie nor your earth gremlin. This is also true with all atheists. When it comes to any god or gods, I am exactly like the quote Neil DeGrasse Tyson once made in a Q & A: "I am not convinced. The evidence is completely lacking. Until you can provide actual evidence of a deity's existence, I am not convinced." And I am virtually assured all other atheists would agree. Remember those old Wendy's commercials; "Where's the beef?!" Well, I am the same, except mine is; "Where's the evidence?!"

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God’s intention is not to misguide people. He has given everyone the ability to think and realize the truth and the freewill to either live by it or not. Those who are too arrogant to apply thought/reason with humility are misguiding themselves.

Really? Really?! Well, since the entire Bible is supposedly written by fallible men while under the guidance of the Holy Ghost, thus written by God, yet the entire Bible is nothing more than a collection of lies and plagiarized myths and legends, I would say God has misguided you poor ignorant Absolutists for about 4000 years now. In another post, I mentioned how I have researched the Bible for a few decades, about 30 years, with the intention of proving the Bible to be correct and true. However, in all those years of research, I have found only one sobering fact. Everything in the Bible is nothing more than plagiarized stories from far older myths and legends.

The events in Exodus are supposed to the have occured during 1440 to 1400 BCE. If that is so, then how is it that the Hebrews (Jews) did not exist until 1000 BCE and they originated in Assyria? Why is it that the OLDEST Egyptian artifact that first mentions the Hebrews (Jews) dates to only 900 BCE? Do some research O! ye of self-induced ignorance.

The above is from this post.

Your God (if he existed) has done nothing but delude all you Absolutists. However, it was actually some power greedy swindlers who deluded all of you in order to enslave you.

Those who are too arrogant to apply thought/reason with humility are misguiding themselves.

Really? I am humble. Excepting one thing. When an Absolutist makes incoherent, prepoterous, and fallacious statements, I just cannot abide such lying. Thus, I have to throw off the skein of humbleness and put on my debating gloves. When I read the Bible, I do apply reason, critical thinking, analytical thought, logical deduction, and simple cogitation. Do you? Evidently not. Thus, I am definitely NOT misguided.

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God is not interested in numbers. He has created man with freewill – the ability to choose good or evil. Only man is responsible for the choices he makes. To make man less resistant to evil will be toying with his free will.

Broken down...

God is not interested in numbers.

Really? Are you sure? Are you absolutely sure? What about 1 Timothy {2:3-4} For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; who will have all men to be saved... and 2 Peter {3:9} ...not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.? Seems to me like your God is very interested in numbers.

He has created man with freewill – the ability to choose good or evil. Only man is responsible for the choices he makes.

And there you have it, "Only man..." Yes, it is man who is responsible. Not God. I think you need to read something else in that other post. I have copied and pasted it here for your conveninence.

From Whence Comes Evil And Sin?

As stated many times by Absolutists, everything comes from God. Thus, logically, if "everything" comes from God, then so must "evil." I am going to use deduction to show this.

You Absolutists always say God has always existed as the only Self-Existing One. For you Absolutists, God has no beginning and no end. Didn't Jesus once say something about this? Revelation 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord… Sooo… If God is the beginning AND the ending, then He himself must also begin and end. Logic dictates that anything that is the beginning and the ending also has a beginning and ending. Thus, let's get this question out of the way. What was there before God? From whence did God become?

Let's just say God has always existed, no beginning, no end. Fine. One thing your precious holy book does not cover, "Who created the Angels and other supernatural creatures (principalities, seraphim, cherubim, dominions, etc.?" I shall use the terms "Angel and Arch-Angels." Did they also exist without beginning or end? Since God is the Umaälis (V: All Creator) and the Athanorga (V: Lord Fatherer), we must assume God created the Angels.

Sooo… God created all the Angels, including Lucifer, the Morning Star. Although it does not say any such thing in the Bible, I have read other treatises that say Lucifer was the most powerful angel of all, even more powerful than Michael. Lucifer was God's right hand being the first amongst the Arch-Angels. I have also read he was the most beautiful, and his true mastery was music and singing. Thus, according to those treatises I hae read, Lucifer was second only to God Himself.

Now for the mess. For God to create anything, it must first be thought. Right? Since God created all the Angels from his thoughts, then that means the mentality of all the Angels also came from God. If Lucifer supposedly rose up against God and tried to claim that power for himself, and this is described as "evil" in Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28, then did not that "evil" first come from God?

The true Original Sin was the rising and fall of Lucifer. Not eating the fruit in that garden. The true Original Sin was Lucifer rising in an attempt to wrest the godhood from God. And since it was God who made Lucifer, it was also God who put the "evil" there. Now that is a trick. Get the "evil" out of God and put it in Lucifer.

Thus, in summation, it is God Himself that is "evil" and "sinful." And anything he creates is also.

Yes. Man is good and evil. If we were to use your beliefs, the reason this is so is because your God is evil and sinful and as Richard Dawkins put it in The God Delusion (and I paraphrase): Jealous, and proud of it, even saying his name is JEALOUS; A petty, unjust, unforgiving, domineering tyrant; A brutal, cruel, vindictive, and bloodthirsty ethnic/religious cleanser; A misogynistic racist; An infanticidal, filicidal, homicidal maniac; A megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, malevolent psychopath; And your god is the most obnoxious, abominable, and unpleasant fictional character to ever intimidate, haunt, and terrorize humanity in all of history.

To make man less resistant to evil will be toying with his free will.

And you suggest that terrorizing everyone with the threat of Hell is not toying with free will?

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You think freewill kicks in only in matters of right and wrong. But that’s not the case. I can use freewill to kill a life or save a life, and at the same time I can also use it to decide if I want to paint a tree or a mountain. In the first case it’s a decision of morality, in the second it’s just a choice of aesthetics. What gets suspended in the paradise is the need to make moral choices… but you will have a multiplicity of other choices to make to simple enjoy life.

Really? Again, that same thought pops in, "Are you really that stupid?" Free will only applies to whether a person may think without outside influence, nothing else. Beyond that, reason, logic, rationality, analysis, deduction/induction, critical thinking, empathy/sympathy, are what kicks in on the decision making for killing a life or saving a life, painting a tree or mountain or wall. All free will allows is the ability to use the aforementioned mental faculties without outside influence. Nothing else. Once you coerce and extort using that indoctrination process of the Absolutists, you are again toying with free will. You are literally training others to suppress their free will. Here are several statements I have made about the Absolutist Indoctrination Process.

The Absolutists usually begin the training from early childhood, especially in the ages of 4 to 14 years, when the child's mind is at its most susceptible and most vulnerable to cultural conditioning, through a controlled, systematic, totalitarian indoctrination process which utilizes mental rape, emotional molestation, and psychological terrorism. Destroying free will.

Tyrannically dictated norms of fidelity are imposed such that children, and later adults, are trained to vomit conflicting ideas and to never consider their veracity. And this sounds like what you have done in your response to Greensnake. Trained to vomit...

Worst of all, their conditioning is so ingrained that most never question why they need to defend their belief at all. Have you ever questioned why you feel you must defend your beliefs? I guarantee you have not. And the only Absolutists feel they need to defend their beliefs is deep down they know they are wrong.

An indoctrination process which teaches you to never think for yourself, but to close your mind against all things except for what some sky-faerie in an obsolete and irrelevant and barbaric and savagely immoral Bronze Age religious text commands you to think. For me, this is the most heinous of acts, especially to do it to children. And no matter whatever you may say, this is child abuse. Again, destroying free will in order to enslave.

And I have one more thing.

Is Heaven and Eternity Really Good?

Ok. Let's assume Heaven is real. Let's also assume Heaven and Eternity ain't singing "Holy, Holy, Holy is our Lord God," as it says in the Bible. But I may be wrong. But it seems I read it somewhere that this is the final disposition of ALL when the New Heaven and New Earth and New Jerusalem are made. Anyway...

Why would I want the torture of living for eternity? I mean, come on. The first few million years may be fun, but eventually it will get so damned boring after having done everything, said everything, been everywhere, nothing left to learn, nothing left to strive for, you will start to wish for death, for non-existence. Just to relieve the boredom.

Something that will never come. Something that will become so desirable and can never occur, you will eventually go wonko. Something that will drive you so wonko, you actually end up being the next Satan, or like the playful, yet damnable, imp of John de Lancie's Q in Star Trek: The Next Generation. At least I would. If I were to live literally for eternity, there will come a point where I will go absolutely wonko because there is absolutely NOTHING else to do. I would have already done EVERYTHING. And just to liven things up, just to break the boredom, I would become exactly like John de Lancie's Q. I would literally end up saying, "Fuck you, God. I am going to have some fun." And start wrecking havoc.

Think about it.

Heaven and Eternity where there is no room to grow, no motivation, no improvements, because everything is already perfect. Is it really better than death if Heaven is this kind of perfect? And Eternal? Forever?

Eventually you would have learned every possible thing there is to learn. Conversation would become completely meaningless since you would have already had every possible conversation, debate, discussion with every possible person. Hell, it would get to the point that even asking, "How you doing," would have absolutely no meaning since everyone is in perfect health.

And if there is a Hell, is Heaven really good if you are to spend eternity knowing you may have loved ones burning and floundering in agonizing pain? Especially when you get to have that grilled steak and baked potato for the 900 trillion billionth time?

The first million years may be a hoot. But, after trillions of billions of years and counting, you are just getting started with no end in sight.

— Thomas Westbrook Quote
"It would be fantastic to expand human life, to an extent. To have healthy minds and bodies. To continue to grow and learn, and discover new things. But how much is too much? And how long of a life is too long?

"Let's not get greedy. At some point in your life you are going to feel old. And even if you maintain your health you are going to get tired of hearing the same jokes, going through the same routines, and having the same food, again and again, day after day. And if that happens to you in this hundred year lifespan that we live, how on Earth do you think we are going to feel for Eternity? And while the urge to avoid death is what has kept our species alive, when you take it to its extreme it is a real nightmare.

"In an eternal setting eventually sex becomes stale, food becomes bland, relationships become boring, and all things that once mattered to you, have long since been checked off your "to-do" list. Life is a blessing, but after you have long since done everything you care to do, death and non-existence are a blessing too. If you are lucky enough to be born on this world, do you want to seize the day and appreciate your accomplishments, and be grateful for the short life that you got to live?

"Or, do you want to throw away your potential in pursuit of a non-existent afterlife, illogically hoping for something that is not even better?"
— Thomas Westbrook End Quote

Yeah. Heaven is a fate worse than death.

For a really good tv show about this, watch Star Trek: Voyager — "Death Wish" Season 2, Episode 18. When I first watched this Episode, I did so with my mom. I commented, "I can sympathize with Quinn." My mom then asked, "What do you mean?" I replied, "Done did everything with nothing left to do, hell I'd go wonko." No wonder Q (John de Lancie) was such a shit-head. It is the only thing that would break the monotony of eternity...

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rmfr

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